A Frame advice

Bottom line is.........

Everyone as a Arsehole and everyone as an opinion and it up to the individual to use such equipment or not and we all know a trailer is the best option but not all have space to store them.

Why pass comments about the legality the OP didn’t ask for that.

Towtal good service here, nothing bad to pass on other than the A frames are heavy but sturdy.

Me, I want to take my car with me and it’s my choice to use a A frame end of legality will be seen when or if a nice kind policeman decides to pull me.

Therefore the story end here.

Happy toading OP and best wishes.
 
Realist said:
Bottom line is.........

Everyone as a Arsehole and everyone as an opinion and it up to the individual to use such equipment or not and we all know a trailer is the best option but not all have space to store them.

Why pass comments about the legality the OP didn’t ask for that.

Towtal good service here, nothing bad to pass on other than the A frames are heavy but sturdy.

Me, I want to take my car with me and it’s my choice to use a A frame end of legality will be seen when or if a nice kind policeman decides to pull me.

Therefore the story end here.

Happy toading OP and best wishes.
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It is reasonable to understand the legality or otherwise of any activity before you undertake it. There should be no arguments left about A frames.

My understanding is very simplistic: in the UK they will be regarded as a trailer until a Court determines otherwise. It is worth noting that under UK trailer law it must be possible to reverse without leaving the towing vehicle and all brakes fitted to the trailer must work; in the most popular Continental countries a car on an A frame is not regarded as a trailer and it is illegal to tow a car unless it has to be moved a short distance to make it safe. There should not be anything contentious in that statement.

Once the facts are known it is up to the individual to decide what he or she wants to do with them. :smiley:

"Everyone as a Arsehole and everyone as an opinion" is an unnecessary opener.
 
Geo said:
We did sign the Vienna convention, Just never got round to ratifying it, look it up
so quoting that wont help you in court.
although after we leave we will have to ratify it or the EU will hit us over the head with it
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I think they ratified it last year ?
 
The reason I used that as an opener was to be blunt and straight to the point. members here are well aware of the ins and outs of A frames and the legality it’s been thrashed like a dead horse.

Best wishes to the OP on what ever route he takes.

Regars



tonyidle said:
It is reasonable to understand the legality or otherwise of any activity before you undertake it. There should be no arguments left about A frames.

My understanding is very simplistic: in the UK they will be regarded as a trailer until a Court determines otherwise. It is worth noting that under UK trailer law it must be possible to reverse without leaving the towing vehicle and all brakes fitted to the trailer must work; in the most popular Continental countries a car on an A frame is not regarded as a trailer and it is illegal to tow a car unless it has to be moved a short distance to make it safe. There should not be anything contentious in that statement.

Once the facts are known it is up to the individual to decide what he or she wants to do with them. :smiley:

"Everyone as a Arsehole and everyone as an opinion" is an unnecessary opener.
Click to expand...

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Realist said:
The reason I used that as an opener was to be blunt and straight to the point. members here are well aware of the ins and outs of A frames and the legality it’s been thrashed like a dead horse.

Best wishes to the OP on what ever route he takes.

Regars
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Obviously the OP isn't or he/she wouldn't have asked for assistance.
 
One thing that is often overlooked with 'conventional' A-frames using / operating over-run brakes is .........

the use of the correct 'over-run' / braking mechanism

Over-run mechanisms are available in 3 different weight options -
a 'smart car' / Aygo (other makes and models of similar size and weight are available ;);)) will require the smallest
a Peugeot 208 / Ford Focus or similar (other makes and models of similar size and weight are available ;);)) will require the next option up
heavier cars / trailers (up to 3500 kg) will require the largest / heaviest option

Use of the 'wrong' weight option for the trailer / car will result either in over application of the trailer's brakes (lots of brake disc dust on the front wheels) or
little braking effect upon the trailer (because the trailer / car is not heavy enough to operate the over-run braking mechanism

(More detail on the ALCO (over-run braking units ) web-site if interested

(Had to change ours for a heavier model when car changed)
 
gus-lopez said:
It isn't now as others have stated
(y)


& the answer to no: 1 is " excellent sir so you have ho problem with us checking the load suitability & security & loading a tonne of nutty slack in your 'trailer'?":unsure:


Unfortunately whoever wrote that does not know the law. The EU directive ,which most state s adhere to, allows 90 consecutive days in one country after which you automatically become a resident, whether you apply or not. You becoming 'resident' immediately makes the UK registered vehicle illegal as a "resident" cannot drive a vehicle in his resident state that is registered in another EU state.
You might argue but you also have to remember that all 'fines' issued now come under the ley de mordaza , also known as the "gagging law" preventing what most would term free speech, & as such to appeal a deposit of 900€ has to be made.& that is for each offence.
Click to expand...
www.europarl.europa.eu

Parliamentary question | 'Ley mordaza' - new public safety law in Spain in clear violation of Articles 11 and 12 on freedom of expression and assembly of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights | E-006729/2015 | European Parliament

Question for written answer E-006729/2015 to the Commission Rule 130 Ramon Tremosa i Balcells (ALDE)
www.europarl.europa.eu www.europarl.europa.eu

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Realist said:
Bottom line is.........

Everyone as a Arsehole and everyone as an opinion and it up to the individual to use such equipment or not and we all know a trailer is the best option but not all have space to store them.

Why pass comments about the legality the OP didn’t ask for that.

.... Therefore the story end here.
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Just because you may be as you describe (ie an @rsehole) doesn't mean everyone else is ... why pass comment on what relevant and important information others are advising about ... was it just to try to be a smart @rsehole?

Realist said:
The reason I used that as an opener was to be blunt and straight to the point. members here are well aware of the ins and outs of A frames and the legality it’s been thrashed like a dead horse.
Click to expand...
Well blow me down with a feather ... I never realised that all members knew about A-frames ... please tell me oh mighty wise one what else do all members know about so we don't upset you by advising on it in the future?
Realist said:
Thread unwatched.
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Now that I do NOT believe for one minute! :giggle:
 
Thank you all for your varied replies. Our daughter considers our frame is not that heavy, and perhaps when I was in my forties it would not have seemed so, but now I'm in my mid sixties, it certainly seems heavy....

Sorry if I stirred up a hornets asking about a-frames. I know there are varying thoughts on using one abroad. We have never used one abroad and as the law is, at best, dubious in this matter, we will not even consider using outside the UK.
 
When I changed from my heavy Car-a-Tow A frame to a lighter TAF (Chesterfield) one it made an enormous difference. I can now put it on without a back breaking, hernia inducing effort. If any he man/woman out there wants to buy my old one make me an offer.
 
Yvie R said:
Thank you all for your varied replies. Our daughter considers our frame is not that heavy, and perhaps when I was in my forties it would not have seemed so, but now I'm in my mid sixties, it certainly seems heavy....

Sorry if I stirred up a hornets asking about a-frames. I know there are varying thoughts on using one abroad. We have never used one abroad and as the law is, at best, dubious in this matter, we will not even consider using outside the UK.
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You have nothing to feel sorry about, some people just get their knickers in a twist about stuff like this, I'd rather say something a thousand times than have one person fall foul and get a big fine because I couldn't be bothered. :giggle:
 
Yvie R said:
Hi all, hope you are all enjoying a little new found freedom here and there, we certainly are.

We currently have a not so young Smart car , towed on an Aframe. The problem is that the current TowingAframes unit which came with the car, is so heavy for me to use. Whilst I understand that it has to be pretty substantial to tow a vehicle safely, I was just wondering if any of you have come across a not so heavy unit. We are looking to change the car with frame so this would be a good opportunity to explore alternatives.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

Yvie
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I’ll keep this short and sweet, it is Not I repeat Not legal to tow a car in France Spain and Germany. Anyone who tells you otherwise either hasn’t been fined yet or is trying to sell you one. I was fined an on the Spot discounted €90 in Spain, the alternative was the vehicle would be impounded until the court case at an unknown date the contents of the MH would be my responsibility. I did it 3 times, last not not so lucky.
 
I'm dizzy and so confused. And reading too much. Have have read they are legal, i have read they are not, i have read don't knows and takes your chance.
We want to tow a small car legally both here and Europe with the minimal amount of fuss.

Maybe the answer is buy one of those massive RV's with a propper garage that a car fit's inside is the answer,
oh bugger, you need a C1 (or more)......................i'm going for a lay down.
 
With post #46 just being posted whilst i typed #47 i am leaning to ILLEGAL. So wheres that bus timetable.
 
Yes keeping out of what’s legal and where debate but we used to have one of these to toe our VW Up which was brilliant in terms of ease of use, electronic braking, extremely light weight and took up little space. Used it for 3 years all over Europe- now we have electric bikes!

www.towaframe.com

Home - V04 | Tow A Frame

A-Frame for Motorhome small car towing by the UK leader in electronic power braking and A-Frames for Motorhomes
www.towaframe.com www.towaframe.com
 
Have a trailer and smart car for sale in classifieds which is definitely legal in Europe should anyone be looking for one ..

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David and Sally said:
From an A Frame supplier. I know they are biased.

Am I legal in Europe?
Countries like Spain and Germany have local laws that state you may not tow a motor vehicle
with another motor vehicle unless an authorised break down vehicle. To avoid rope towing etc.
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
That complies with all European trailer legislation. That is identified as a trailer by the
reflective triangles, the towing vehicles numberplate, the brakes operated solely by braking
in the towing vehicle, and the lights duplicating that of the towing vehicle.
2. Their local laws (Not European Laws) Apply if you are a resident and have lived there
greater than 6 months, or if your vehicle is registered in that country. In which case A-frame
towing would be illegal.
3. If you are travelling/holidaying for less than 6 months in that country then: No state has the
power to reclassify a vehicle travelling from another state. As a visitor from another state
you are legal under the powers of international traffic as defined in the Vienna convention,
as long as your combination of vehicles are legal in your home country (see opposite).
4. Your local police officer may not be familiar with international traffic and far more familiar
with their local laws, and as such it is possible you may get stopped. This is why we provide
translated documents explaining what you are towing and its legality, to produce if needed.
The reality is that far fewer people are stopped than is made of by gossip and internet posts.
And often these people that are stopped are either, not compliant and therefore rightly
stopped, or stopped for some other reason.
5. Despite installing hundreds of A-frames each year, we have only ever known of one of our
customers being stopped abroad (in Spain). It was because they had a brake light out on
their towcar. After the light was sorted and the police officer was shown the braking system
working, they were permitted to continue without a problem.
Another was the Mont Blanc Tunnel, which upon presentation of their provided international
traffic documentation, were permitted to continue. The truth is we get far more reports of
successful trips passing numerous authorities without being stopped. The law is on your
side if you do things properly.
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.
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Been there, done that, and had the argument with the Spanish Guardia twice (no, 3 times if you count the one who told me it was "Not legal Spain" on a rest area?.) and been let off on both occasions. The definition (above) is technically correct, the issue is that It takes forever to communicate that to the Locals, and should "they" decide to impound the vehicle you have a real fight on your hands that could take many months to clear up. For many years the various Continental Authorities never bothered "us" and many did it and some still do, and "get away" with it. The frequency of stopping had increased over the ensuing years. which led partly (In my case) to me opting to Take my "winters" in the Souther United States. where there are no such limitations and the "system" is set up for it.

As for "legality". The UK works on the basis that something is legal until it is tested in a Court of Law, and found to be "illegal". As was the case for "Dollies". What is loosely referred to as the "Napoleonic" system which prevails largely the other side of the Dover Strait. effectively is the opposite i.e. not legal unless you test it in court and it is found in your favour.

This has been aired so many time on Forum. Hence why I use the "popcorn" smiley. This debate will run and run.
 
Yvie R said:
Hi all, hope you are all enjoying a little new found freedom here and there, we certainly are.

We currently have a not so young Smart car , towed on an Aframe. The problem is that the current TowingAframes unit which came with the car, is so heavy for me to use. Whilst I understand that it has to be pretty substantial to tow a vehicle safely, I was just wondering if any of you have come across a not so heavy unit. We are looking to change the car with frame so this would be a good opportunity to explore alternatives.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

Yvie
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Hi we have just had a super lightweight A frame fitted to our Hyundai i10 by Tow A frame https://www.towaframe.com/products/ Mike and Bobby of Tow A Frame came to my house and fitted the superb electronic braking system and easy locate A frame. All done in a day. Excellent service.
20200720_105528_LI.jpg
 
tonyidle said:
It is reasonable to understand the legality or otherwise of any activity before you undertake it. There should be no arguments left about A frames.

My understanding is very simplistic: in the UK they will be regarded as a trailer until a Court determines otherwise. It is worth noting that under UK trailer law it must be possible to reverse without leaving the towing vehicle and all brakes fitted to the trailer must work; in the most popular Continental countries a car on an A frame is not regarded as a trailer and it is illegal to tow a car unless it has to be moved a short distance to make it safe. There should not be anything contentious in that statement.

Once the facts are known it is up to the individual to decide what he or she wants to do with them. :smiley:

"Everyone as a Arsehole and everyone as an opinion" is an unnecessary opener.
Click to expand...
But OP didnt ask for an opinion on legality, much as they didnt as for the lottery numbers this week
They are already users of a ‘frame, just want advice on a lighter one

Like asking for an opinion on a smoother whisky only to get lectured on the evils of drink by a methodist fundamentalist

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minesapint said:
Hi we have just had a super lightweight A frame fitted to our Hyundai i10 by Tow A frame https://www.towaframe.com/products/ Mike and Bobby of Tow A Frame came to my house and fitted the superb electronic braking system and easy locate A frame. All done in a day. Excellent service.View attachment 412545
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Looks interesting and more local than any other tow bar company to me, does their price include electronic braking as well?
Thanks
 
Charlie9038 said:
Looks interesting and more local than any other tow bar company to me, does their price include electronic braking as well?
Thanks
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Yes it includes everything, all fitted and working. We had an override braking system on our previous toad and it was so unbelievably heavy and awkward to locate onto the MoHo. The Towaframe system is very lightweight and easy to locate. Excellent.
 
Steve and Denise said:
I have had most a frames avoid Towtal and Armitage, towing aframes Chesterfield nicely made light weight and value for money if you can get past the woman on the phone, next towbar 2 towcars good service and works well quite light, then towmaster2 easy to use being telescopic but pricey, I have the later on our car but it came as a package. 🙂
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hi Steve

can I ask why avoid Armitages

i’m booked in wednesday for a bike rack but torn between that of a tow bar/ A frame

Al
 
Al n Val said:
hi Steve

can I ask why avoid Armitages

i’m booked in wednesday for a bike rack but torn between that of a tow bar/ A frame

Al
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We had Armitage on our last Toad, it was very heavy and awkward to fit. The new Toad has Tow A Frame it is only 9k in weight and so easy to connect up, with electronic braking not the old style overrun braking system, Excellent piece of kit.
 
Al n Val said:
hi Steve

can I ask why avoid Armitages

i’m booked in wednesday for a bike rack but torn between that of a tow bar/ A frame

Al
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You would have to be Rambo to pick it up off the floor far to heavy

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