More evidence hydrogen fuelled vans could power future motorhomes? (1 Viewer)

[Coolcats]

700 bar !

is that an issue ?

 

[tonyidle]

Being scientifically as thick as proverbial pig shit, but correct me if I’m wrong, and I’m sure I may be, there seems to me to be a basic flaw in the above statement, if you take the vehicle out of the equation how do you power the alternator in the first place to produce the gas to power the engine, how can it be perpetual motion as you need the gas to power the engine to power the alternator (I think) that’s what I mean anyway!

I was trying to simplify. It's a closed circle. Engine powered by HHO generating electricity via an alternator to produce HHO to run the engine. Perpetual motion if you ignore all losses which are basically heat: from the engine, alternator, wiring, etc.

 

[dabhand]

I was trying to simplify. It's a closed circle. Engine powered by HHO generating electricity via an alternator to produce HHO to run the engine. Perpetual motion if you ignore all losses which are basically heat: from the engine, alternator, wiring, etc.

Genuinely interested but with nothing to start the engine to run the alternator to create the gas to power the engine surely it’s a non starter as it’s the initial power that fails all perpetual motion theories isn’t it?

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[tonyidle]

Genuinely interested but with nothing to start the engine to run the alternator to create the gas to power the engine surely it’s a non starter as it’s the initial power that fails all perpetual motion theories isn’t it?

That is exactly the point I'm making. And not just the initial power.

 

[dabhand]

That is exactly the point I'm making. And not just the initial power.

That’s ok then

 

[gpat]

Why dont you look on google where this has been looked into in detail. There are 100s of youtube videos of HHO kits being bought and fitted in great detail. The kits can be bought for £200 or less and anybody who is handy with tools and basic electricity can fit the kit. The modern alternator is capable of over 130 amps easily and 15 to 25 amps would put zero load on the engine. Any help you need feel free to ask. Im buying in the very near future a 2007/8 Rapido 9048 DF and no cigar what will be my first addition will be to the vehicle.

Good luck with it. But I would check the science properly as I reckon, like others say, there is no such thing as perpetual motion and it definitely takes more power to get hydrogen from water than you get when you burn it. That is not for debate

Water is at the bottom of the energy ladder where chemistry is concerned. Its a product of combustion and there is no chemical potential energy left in it. Sure you can extract the hydrogen but you will be in energy debt I'm afraid.

The only potential energy water has is if it up at the top of a hill and you have a turbine

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[gpat]

Being scientifically as thick as proverbial pig shit, but correct me if I’m wrong, and I’m sure I may be, there seems to me to be a basic flaw in the above statement, if you take the vehicle out of the equation how do you power the alternator in the first place to produce the gas to power the engine, how can it be perpetual motion as you need the gas to power the engine to power the alternator (I think) that’s what I mean anyway!

You are not as "thick as the...." you are actually correct

 

[Dark_Comet]

Scam, something from nothing? Better to light a candle than sit alone in the dark. If you dont understand the physics of how hydrogen can benefit the combustion process, better to say nothing than make stupid statements. Henry Ford use to say "Long as I say nothing nobody will know im stupid" If these guys were about at the time of Tesla and the first motor vehicles, they be still riding a faster horse and holding a candle. The great bard himself said it all " When ignorance is bliss its folly to be wise".

 

[gpat]

Scam, something from nothing? Better to light a candle than sit alone in the dark. If you dont understand the physics of how hydrogen can benefit the combustion process, better to say nothing than make stupid statements. Henry Ford use to say "Long as I say nothing nobody will know im stupid" If these guys were about at the time of Tesla and the first motor vehicles, they be still riding a faster horse and holding a candle. The great bard himself said it all " When ignorance is bliss its folly to be wise".

Henry Ford didn't try to rewrite the rules of physics and chemistry

After studying Chemistry at University to Master level and being a fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry. I can tell you with all honesty that this cannot possibly be real. Yes adding hydrogen to an engine will give increased performance, but generating that energy using the vehicles own fuel (via the inefficiency of an alternator added to the very inefficient liberation of hydrogen from water) and not losing energy will just never add up to me. Its not a lack of ambition, its just simple fundamental physics - just like water will never flow uphill.

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[Gromett]

If you dont understand the physics of how hydrogen can benefit the combustion process, better to say nothing than make stupid statements.

Are you saying I don't understand physics and you do?

 

[jongood]

is that an issue ?

I would be a bit concerned about sitting over a tank of hydrogen at 1050psi. Wouldn't you?

 

[EuroTrotters]

is that an issue ?

It’s a lot of pressure

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[Coolcats]

I would be a bit concerned about sitting over a tank of hydrogen at 1050psi. Wouldn't you?

No because the cylinders are designed to store that pressure, it’s like asking are you concerned about falling from 35,000 feet when flying or a sudden decompression etc etc.

 

[Coolcats]

It’s a lot of pressure

Not if it’s stored safely, ever wonderd what would happen if the lift failed at the 30th floor or your brakes failed at 70 mph ?

 

[Jaws]

Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe I think.
Stripping it off other elements is the difficult bit.
Let’s hope investment in it gathers pace.
Mitch

Question.. Genuine not making a point or owt..
Compared to refining petrol from crude, is it more difficult ?

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[Coolcats]

Question.. Genuine not making a point or owt..
Compared to refining petrol from crude, is it more difficult ?

No its not hard just use electricity to split water H2O in to oxygen and Hydrogen

 

[Jaws]

No its not hard just use electricity to split water H2O in to oxygen and Hydrogen

OK, I will rephrase it ( I asked in a poor way ) I know the process for getting H, I know little of petrol production
I am guessing they use a fare bit of electricity in petroleum processing, so how does it compare ?

 

[jongood]

No because the cylinders are designed to store that pressure, it’s like asking are you concerned about falling from 35,000 feet when flying or a sudden decompression etc etc.

Actually, yes! Both of those events or a combination of the two are possible and neither would end well.

I do think Hydrogen has the potential to be a good solution but would still rather not sit above a tank full of anything at such high pressure.

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[Coolcats]

Actually, yes! Both of those events or a combination of the two are possible and neither would end well.

I do think Hydrogen has the potential to be a good solution but would still rather not sit above a tank full of anything at such high pressure.

We live in a world that has potential danger all around, the risks are managed. I have just layed down decking that will have a hot tub on. The tub with water and loaded with people will weigh 2.5 ton the load area is 4sq ft the deck is flat contrary to normal decking which has a slope to drain water. If I added a slope this could place a strain on one side of the tub and the acrylic could fail over time due to an uneven load. The decking is designed to take a load of 3 ton per Sq m so this means that whilst the decking is made from wood and supports a heavy load there is a good safety margin built in,,,,,and that hydrogen tank you mention is probably not under your seat.

A tank of petrol also has the potential to kill you and Half a tank is more dangerous than a full tank !

 

[Gromett]

OK, I will rephrase it ( I asked in a poor way ) I know the process for getting H, I know little of petrol production
I am guessing they use a fare bit of electricity in petroleum processing, so how does it compare ?

I knew it used fractional distillation but didn't know the practical details with respect to fossil fuels. You got me curious and had to look into it.
This was probably the mid way point video. It had enough detail to explain the process without getting too technical.

Here is what I got from my research. The process is pretty straight forward. Although it requires high temperatures and reasonable pressures it is not difficult and individual stages can be replicated by a competent DIY'er. Do a youtube search for making ethanol at home from plastic waste.

Hydrogen on the other hand is easier to make in it's gaseous form. But the compression and chilling stages required to make it into a usable fuel for cars is highly specialised and incredibly dangerous for the home gamer. You can't use a normal fridge compressor for instance and the chiller stage needs to be able to handle hydrogen which is not as simple as you would think. The extreme cold temperatures makes things like seals and metal very brittle and hydrogen embrittlement is a serious issue.

I personally would be happier having a crack (get it?) at making petrol at home rather then compressed/chilled hydrogen.

Anyway, here is the video. An interesting 10 minutes

 

[Gromett]

I got the video from this article.

The Project, Specifically (Why so early?) | EME 801: Energy Markets, Policy, and Regulation

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[Coolcats]

I knew it used fractional distillation but didn't know the practical details with respect to fossil fuels. You got me curious and had to look into it.
This was probably the mid way point video. It had enough detail to explain the process without getting too technical.

Here is what I got from my research. The process is pretty straight forward. Although it requires high temperatures and reasonable pressures it is not difficult and individual stages can be replicated by a competent DIY'er. Do a youtube search for making ethanol at home from plastic waste.

Hydrogen on the other hand is easier to make in it's gaseous form. But the compression and chilling stages required to make it into a usable fuel for cars is highly specialised and incredibly dangerous for the home gamer. You can't use a normal fridge compressor for instance and the chiller stage needs to be able to handle hydrogen which is not as simple as you would think. The extreme cold temperatures makes things like seals and metal very brittle and hydrogen embrittlement is a serious issue.

I personally would be happier having a crack (get it?) at making petrol at home rather then compressed/chilled hydrogen.

Anyway, here is the video. An interesting 10 minutes

This was CSE chemistry when I was at school we used to make wine in the chemistry lab then still it to make alcohol amongst other things. We had a brilliant chemistry teacher who taught us many chemical reactions, I suspect many of the things shown and taught would not be permissible today under the banner of health and safety and ‘you can’t teach kids that’

 

[gpat]

No its not hard just use electricity to split water H2O in to oxygen and Hydrogen

Its not hard, but its incredibly inefficient. You need to put a lot more energy in than you get out.

 

[gpat]

Actually, yes! Both of those events or a combination of the two are possible and neither would end well.

I do think Hydrogen has the potential to be a good solution but would still rather not sit above a tank full of anything at such high pressure.

Its not the pressure you need to worry about, its the explosivity!

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[jongood]

Its not the pressure you need to worry about, its the explosivity!

Still a good reason not to want to sit on it .

This started off as a tongue in cheek remark and as- from the posts, it seems I'm less averse to risk than many on here I would probably want to try a hydrogen car but would rather have the tank jettisonable like on an airplane.

 

[Gromett]

Its not the pressure you need to worry about, its the explosivity!

I think 5,000 or 10,000 psi tanks will go off with a bang no matter what they are filled with

Hydrogen just adds to the excitement. Hydrogen won't burn inside the cylinder as there is no oxygen in there. It has to have escaped, and if the cylinder had gone pop due to pressure related failure the shrapnel will be quite a serious issue before you even think of getting toasted

I am with you though, I think hydrogen in cars is a seriously bad idea. How many cars are driving around without an MOT at the moment? How many of these hydrogen death traps will end up on the road after 10-15 years

 

[Gromett]

But a little hydrogen goes a very, very long way when it comes to going boom. Now imagine instead of a cardboard box it was the inside of your car with a lot more hydrogen. One little leak

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[Coolcats]

All stored energy can fail and end in an explosion

How many cars are driving around without an MOT at the moment? How many of these hydrogen death traps will end up on the road after 10-15 years

Probably less than Unmaintained MOT’d battery cars and ICE vehicles

 

[Gromett]

Probably less than Unmaintained MOT’d battery cars and ICE vehicles

That was an LPG boom, Hydrogen has a magnitude more speed when it goes pop.

I think you are underestimating the stupidity of people. They drive around with failed brakes, bald tyres to the point the threads are showing. What makes you think they will consider the safety of their hydrogen system?

 

[gpat]

That was an LPG boom, Hydrogen has a magnitude more speed when it goes pop.

I think you are underestimating the stupidity of people. They drive around with failed brakes, bald tyres to the point the threads are showing. What makes you think they will consider the safety of their hydrogen system?

And hydrogen will explode (ignite) at almost any % mix with air. LPG will not. I have quoted this before here but

If you leak LPG (Butane or Propane) you would be slightly unlucky if you caught fire
If you leak H2 - it would be a miracle if you did not catch fire

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