Towing a little car

[parney]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

 

[Mikeco]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

That’s a definite non starter, only can be used by recovery contractors.

 

[pappajohn]

Only two options ...trailer or A frame.
A dolly can only be used by a recovery company as it isn't braked and all wheels on the road,, including the cars wheels, must be efficiently braked.

 

[Gerry77]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

No, a dolly is only, as far as I know it is for vehicle recovery. A frame or trailer are the choices. I use an A frame as you don’t have to store a trailer either at home or on camp site. If you use a trailer you also need to consider your overall gross train weight of motorhome, trailer and car.
Just my experience but others will may have different opinions.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

As above, A frame is the easiest option for cost and space as trailers are also difficult to keep ownership of especially in public areas.
Choose between overrun or electronic braking systems. I think a good electronic kit is the best option as overrun systems rely on manual adjustment of the cable tensioner which can be tricky to get right (a little tight and brakes drag and get hot, a little loose and the car transmits the shock from the brake slider).
Negative is that reversing is difficult without damaging things as the steering moves to full lock in a short distance.

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[parney]

Cheers for that point taken loud and clear just been up in Yorkshire moors and passed a v couple of homes pulling them little smart cars

 

[pappajohn]

If you're think about a smart be aware that not all are towable and others there's a sequence to follow before towing.

 

[Larrynwin]

We towed a Peugeot 107 on overrun braked a frame then a Kia Rio on basic a frame with RV Brake 3 auto system for many years, all in U.K. no problem.

 

[the1andonly]

Ok illl start with a vw UP!
Other option peugeot 107 also available as citroen, toyota versions.
Not a MX5 (one is suitable).

 

[Speve]

If you are thinking of travelling to EU I would suggest a trailer as A frames are a point of contention over there as they are not legal you will see folk towing them and they may or may not have been stopped, how lucky do you feel you are, we weighed up the pros and cons and decided On a twin axle trailer with a Fiat Panda 4 x 4 on it have done it for over ten years now all over Europe without and problems.

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[pandas]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

A Frame, forget the trailer unless you are one of the snow birds that simply want to head to the Spanish coast for 3 months.

Issues with A frame in several countries though. We enjoyed having our be up with us for a couple of years until we found electric bikes were a better option.

 

[Racer65]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

Pretty sure that’s only legal for breakdown recovery. I’ve had an A-frame for years. Takes up no space, unlike a trailer

 

[steveclv]

Wow what a difference between the US and UK. We lived in the States for 13 years and did over 35,000 miles driving back and forth in RVs towing a minivan on a braked dolly and then a Jeep Grand Cherokee on an A frame. Mind you, with 500HP on tap it was easy and even the 7mpg was affordable at the time with diesel at $1.35 a US gallon

 

[Just us on Tour]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

We tow a Hyundai i 10 N Line using an A frame . All in uk as A Frames in parts of Europe are not legal . We have had no issues at all . Towing a car is a game changer if like us you use campsites as a base for a few days before moving on . Be mindful of your vans train weight . Most Ducato are 6000kg , Mercedes sprinter are a little less . We tow with a 160bhp fiat 9 speed auto which has a GVW of 4500Kg thus leaving us around 1500Kg for a car . Most small cars are between 900-1000kg so you have a number of makes to choose from . Our N line weighed 1040kg with half tank of fuel and includes the A frame. A small car is very different to towing a single axle caravan . A car is very stable . If you go for an A Frame, go for one that is simple , quick and easy to fit. Our converter was excellent . We can fit our A frame and be ready to go literal in 8 mins. We love it .

 

[Jonno1103]

We tow a Citroen C1 Flair which weighs 860kg on an electronic proportionate braking A Frame, we have done many, many times right across Europe without issue.

The Citroen C1/ Peugeot 108/ Toyota Aygo seem to be the most popular tow car. They are the same vehicle.

The new Hyundai i10 & Kia Picanto are also becoming popular & again are the same car.

Fiat 500's & Panda's can be surprisingly heavy so it's worth looking closely at their kerb weight.

Consider a car & A Frame package such as those supplied by towbars2towcars.

Point to consider: The nose weight of the A Frame & car is deducted from your rear axle weight- ensure it's not over. Many moho's with large garages lose payload when towing, as an example, A Swift tag axle AlKo chassis Kon Tiki which has a GTW of 6000kg loses 50kg of the 200kg garage allowance.

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[parney]

Cheers for all advice there are quite a few tow cars listed on eBay with a frame going to seek advice from Swift//Ford around getting tow bar fitted as not to invalidate warranty as MH is only 6 months old

 

[CAB96]

Cheers for all advice there are quite a few tow cars listed on eBay with a frame going to seek advice from Swift//Ford around getting tow bar fitted as not to invalidate warranty as MH is only 6 months old

Don't forget to inform your insurance once you have it fitted.

 

[BrochMike]

We tow a Citroen C1 Flair which weighs 860kg on an electronic proportionate braking A Frame, we have done many, many times right across Europe without issue.

Doesn't make it legal though...

 

[Jonno1103]

Doesn't make it legal though...

It is legal... UK trailered cars are illegal in France as said trailer needs to have separate registration docs, doesn't bother the Gendarmerie. It's known as Driving Law Reciprocation - Mutual Recognition & Exchange Agreements. The UK has a Memoranda OF Understanding (MOU) with Ireland, Germany, Malta & Spain. For France we have diplomatic assurances.

If we consider the oft quoted 1968 Vienna Convention which Spain isn't party to it reverts to the 1949 Geneva Convention, particularly section 'E' which states:

A​	Motor cycles, with or without a side-car, invalid carriages and three-wheeled motor vehicles with an unladen weight not exceeding 400 kg (880 lb).
B​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of passengers and comprising, in addition to the driver's seat, at most eight seats, or those used for the transport of goods and having a permissible maximum weight not exceeding 3,500 kg (7,700 lb). Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
C​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of goods and of which the permissible maximum weight exceeds 3,500 kg (7,700 lb). Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
D​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of passengers and comprising, in addition to the driver's seat, more than eight seats. Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
E​	Motor vehicles of category B, C, or D, as authorized above, with other than light trailer.

 

[BrochMike]

It is legal... UK trailered cars are illegal in France as said trailer needs to have separate registration docs, doesn't bother the Gendarmerie. It's known as Driving Law Reciprocation - Mutual Recognition & Exchange Agreements. The UK has a Memoranda OF Understanding (MOU) with Ireland, Germany, Malta & Spain. For France we have diplomatic assurances.

If we consider the oft quoted 1968 Vienna Convention which Spain isn't party to it reverts to the 1949 Geneva Convention, particularly section 'E' which states:

A​	Motor cycles, with or without a side-car, invalid carriages and three-wheeled motor vehicles with an unladen weight not exceeding 400 kg (880 lb).
B​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of passengers and comprising, in addition to the driver's seat, at most eight seats, or those used for the transport of goods and having a permissible maximum weight not exceeding 3,500 kg (7,700 lb). Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
C​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of goods and of which the permissible maximum weight exceeds 3,500 kg (7,700 lb). Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
D​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of passengers and comprising, in addition to the driver's seat, more than eight seats. Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
E​	Motor vehicles of category B, C, or D, as authorized above, with other than light trailer.

You say you use an a frame, not a trailer.

Plenty of discussion elsewhere on here but the consensus is, while there may be 'assurances', these are not legal across Europe and spot fines are issued.

Low risk, perhaps, but almost certainly your risk...

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[Jonno1103]

Cheers for all advice there are quite a few tow cars listed on eBay with a frame going to seek advice from Swift//Ford around getting tow bar fitted as not to invalidate warranty as MH is only 6 months old

I'd go for the Tow Trust fixed flange with the additional stengthening plates. You have a GTW of 5500kg. Meaning you have 2000kg

If it's auto your 430kg payload is reduced to 400kg, adding the tow bar will reduce it further to 370kg.

With the auto you gain 25Nm of torque, up to 385Nm on the 130 engine (which is greater that a Fiat 180 manual).

If you opted for the new 165 auto your moho will weigh 3550kg meaning C1 E if you wish to tow to a maximum of 1950kg. In this configuration your moho payload will be down to 320kg.

The Fords have a rear axle weight limit of 2250kg so there is scope to spread payload into the tow car especially as your 475 with the twin rear bench seats is light in this area.

 

[RustyRuss]

We have toad (technical term I believe!) Toyota Aygos for 5 years. Been all over England and Wales, toad for 5 years in France, been down to Beziers on South Coast twice, Loire Valley, Il de Re, going to Il de Re again this year, Mostly Peage motorways but lots and lots of A road equivalents and rural roads, towns, cities, you name it. I know that in France a toad is technically illegal but my in my experience we have passed and been passed by lots of Gendarmes and never had any problems. Even going through a couple of Peage pay stations using our toll tag with lots of Gendarmes parked at the side of the road having a fag and a nag none of them have flagged us down. Never had any problems at border control. I know there are loads of guys on here that will nay say me and wring their hands in anguish but practical experience seems to suggest that French cops have better things to do.
Interestingly there is now a French company manufacturing A Frames in France, I think that speaks volumes….
We have a proportional brake system attached to the very latest Aygo with push button start and stop/start technology, it’s manual transmission, I was worried about the electronic steering lock automatically activating, but a company called TOWtal in Stoke sorted that out for around £100, truly excellent service as well.

For all you Nay Sayers out there, you have your opinion, I have mine…..

Good Luck and lots of Happy trips in your new MoHo!

Cheers!

Russ

 

[triky]

As above, A frame is the easiest option for cost and space as trailers are also difficult to keep ownership of especially in public areas.
Choose between overrun or electronic braking systems. I think a good electronic kit is the best option as overrun systems rely on manual adjustment of the cable tensioner which can be tricky to get right (a little tight and brakes drag and get hot, a little loose and the car transmits the shock from the brake slider).
Negative is that reversing is difficult without damaging things as the steering moves to full lock in a short distance.

Having towed a 'Smart' behind my Autocruise (the original) for MANY years ,on a A frame,i found a way of reversing completely safe & reliable . A pair of expanders/bungy chords.These are hooked around the spokes of the steering wheel & under the seat,so whilst reversing the car goes in any direction you require,straight or round corners just as a caravan,boat or trailer would .Simples,done that ,been there.Helps with a rear camera too.

 

[RustyRuss]

Having towed a 'Smart' behind my Autocruise (the original) for MANY years ,on a A frame,i found a way of reversing completely safe & reliable . A pair of expanders/bungy chords.These are hooked around the spokes of the steering wheel & under the seat,so whilst reversing the car goes in any direction you require,straight or round corners just as a caravan,boat or trailer would .Simples,done that ,been there.Helps with a rear camera too.

Have you got any pictures of how you did/do this? Would be very interested to try it out.

Cheers!

Russ

 

[triky]

Have you got any pictures of how you did/do this? Would be very interested to try it out.

Cheers!

Russ

Sorry Russ,no pic's,but try it in an open field ,you'll be amazed how easy it is .ANY turn ANY corner ,long straight etc .It WORKS !!

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[kontiki649]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

For us it was a no brainer. We priced up A frame fitting and removal costs and at the time and set that cost against having a bespoke twin axle small trailer made by Phoenix and the trailer came up trumps. We have used it all over France for the last 9 years and watched the value of the trailer inflate such that it’s probably worth nearly twice what was originally paid in the first place. Yes the trailer needs storage but reversing is really easy and we have no hassle of French plod even looking our way. But whichever you use, I hope you have as much fun as we have.

 

[AshFencing]

Just looking at possibilities of towing a little car seems a mine field. Would a Dolley with wheels that front wheels go on be better than a frame no wheels. Any tips/advice cheers

Don’t get a Dolly, they’re only suitable for short recovery purposes nowadays. I’m pretty sure there was a law change regarding them.

I’ve had zero issues with the police flat towing our ‘tow car’ through France and Spain, although you’re not technically supposed to. However all I’ve had is admiration from officers at the quirkiness of our little Abarth car.

 

[two]

You can tow almost any car on an A-frame (but not automatics). I have towed several family cars but rules may have changed a bit since then. However, i came to the conclusion that it's just not worth it. In the UK, I'd suggest getting a caravan. Abroad, there's little need to take a car and some countries dislike the use of A-frames. A trailer is OK but much more cumbersome and more weight on the back axle. I came to the conclusion that it was cheaper to hire a taxi when needed (or even a chauffeured car) than pay to convert another one to take the A-frame. Motorhoming is a different style to caravanning. You soon get use to using public transport and enjoy a different kind of freedom.

 

[RustyRuss]

Sorry Russ,no pic's,but try it in an open field ,you'll be amazed how easy it is .ANY turn ANY corner ,long straight etc .It WORKS !!

Hi Triky,
So you attach a bungy to each of two spokes set at 3 o’clock and at 9 o’clock and then to the seat base somewhere? Do you attach them to the steering wheel so that they go behind the steering wheel?
Like this?

Did this drawing on an App called Freeform in my Ipad for those who want to know.

 

[TonyEmm]

Cheers for all advice there are quite a few tow cars listed on eBay with a frame going to seek advice from Swift//Ford around getting tow bar fitted as not to invalidate warranty as MH is only 6 months old

Cheers for all advice there are quite a few tow cars listed on eBay with a frame going to seek advice from Swift//Ford around getting tow bar fitted as not to invalidate warranty as MH is only 6 months old

It is legal... UK trailered cars are illegal in France as said trailer needs to have separate registration docs, doesn't bother the Gendarmerie. It's known as Driving Law Reciprocation - Mutual Recognition & Exchange Agreements. The UK has a Memoranda OF Understanding (MOU) with Ireland, Germany, Malta & Spain. For France we have diplomatic assurances.

If we consider the oft quoted 1968 Vienna Convention which Spain isn't party to it reverts to the 1949 Geneva Convention, particularly section 'E' which states:

A​	Motor cycles, with or without a side-car, invalid carriages and three-wheeled motor vehicles with an unladen weight not exceeding 400 kg (880 lb).
B​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of passengers and comprising, in addition to the driver's seat, at most eight seats, or those used for the transport of goods and having a permissible maximum weight not exceeding 3,500 kg (7,700 lb). Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
C​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of goods and of which the permissible maximum weight exceeds 3,500 kg (7,700 lb). Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
D​	Motor vehicles used for the transport of passengers and comprising, in addition to the driver's seat, more than eight seats. Vehicles in this category may be coupled with a light trailer.
E​	Motor vehicles of category B, C, or D, as authorized above, with other than light trailer.

It is NOT legal. The Vienna Convention on Road Traffic 1968 does NOT recognize an adapted motorised vehicle as a trailer, it has to be “designed to be towed” not adapted.

France also outlaw the towing of one motorised vehicle with another in their Code de la Route https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/texte_lc/LEGITEXT000006074228/2024-03-10/ and Spain have a similar provision, confirmed in their
Instrucción 08/V-74. https://www.autocaravanas.es/wp-con...GT_Instruccion_08-V-74_Autocaravanas_2076.pdf

The U.K. government ratified the Vienna convention in 2018 but the DfT don’t feel obliged to enforce it. A-frames are ‘accepted’ by the DfT but, they have no legal standing in the U.K. They do not conform to the standards required in the Road Vehicles (construction & use) regulations 1986 (and amendments) which includes type approval.

All that said, most folk will get away with a-frame towing abroad but, there is a risk, especially if you are the sole driver. Folk have been fined in France, Spain & Germany though!!

The only legal way to transport a small car is on a fully braked, type approved trailer.