Toad question.

[GWAYGWAY]

I have a motorhome and I have a Smart 451 CDI which is 2012 and still has the older type gearbox. It is left in neutral and the key comes out and it stays in neutral, am able to push it about with the handbrake off.
WHY is it always said you need to leave the key in place, it is a gerbox lock not a steering lock, it cannot be put into forwards or reverse without a key as the whole gearbox is electrically powered to engage anything.. Am I getting mixed up about the Smart and confusing it with ordinary tow car where the key stays in place on the STEERING lock?. I remember seeing bits and pieces about the keys staying in place when being pulled. I need to find out I am correct about the key, as it has to go to Watford for a specialist checkover, it is going on the back of the van rather than 40mph on the M25. in Safe Mode. The van also gives me somewhere to hang around in whilst waiting for the car to be seen.

 

[Lenny HB]

@Minxy Girl is our resident Smart expert.

 

[tonyidle]

If the steering is free (which it is) and the car wheels freely (which it does) then you can tow without the key in it. We're on our third Smart and all but the latest versions are safe to tow with the key out. The latest version can't be towed whether the key is in or out.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Minxy lass will tell you but you dont need the key. Once you have left it in 'N' position and removed the key...you can push it about any where. You do not have a steering lock. Hence the need for a bungee strap when connected to a "A" frame on the truck.
Basically its to keep it from wondering about or' Chattering ' trying to go from left to right or back again when moving off or even reversing with it whilst on the truck.

Kev

 

[Reallyretired]

Mine was about the same age and could be towed with the key out. Most cars but not earlier smarts have a steering lock so the key has to be in.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[pappajohn]

Basically its to keep it from wondering about or' Chattering ' trying to go from left to right or back again when moving off

Prey tell how does it wander about or chatter when the whole car is held rock steady to the towbar via the A frame.
If there is ANY movement in the steering other than normal cornering movement there is serious abnormal play in the steering or suspension components.
Sorry, but I don't think you fully understand the principle of A frame towing and steering geometry.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Pappa John....This time you are wrong my mate! The A frame works well if you have a steering lock and power steering. The smart car up to 2014 does not have either. It also has bigger wheels at the back than the front.
So...when you try to pull away with one connected via the A frame...the steering wheel in the cab of the smart does not have any resistance to the pull so...it moves left and right until it overcomes the problem naturally. Car atow and towtal put the A frame on the smart and have to use the bungee strap from the seat frame to the steering wheel to lock it in place stopping the judder that will and it does ..take place.
Hope you dont get offended? But its a fact. Trust me..it shakes like a bugger without the steering wheel being locked in centre.

Kev

 

[TheBig1]

at the supermarket the trolleys have 2 fixed wheels and 2 that turn the same as a car. when you turn a corner, the wheels turn and follow the line you take. It's the same with a towcar, the front wheels castor as the van turns and they follow the van. basic physics

 

[Snowbird]

I tow my Smart with the key out. I have no idea what you would use a bungy rope for though. I have one of those all singing, all dancing electronic braked Aframes that operate the brakes electronically.

 

[mikebeaches]

If the steering is free (which it is) and the car wheels freely (which it does) then you can tow without the key in it. We're on our third Smart and all but the latest versions are safe to tow with the key out. The latest version can't be towed whether the key is in or out.

Could you provide more advice about which model year the Smart car changed, making it incompatible for towing? I've heard this before, but not sure how recent the car can be and remain suitable to tow.

Thanks!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

at the supermarket the trolleys have 2 fixed wheels and 2 that turn the same as a car. when you turn a corner, the wheels turn and follow the line you take. It's the same with a towcar, the front wheels castor as the van turns and they follow the van. basic physics

I like how folk quote stuff! Especially when its wrong!

Wrong again sorry

I tow my Smart with the key out. I have no idea what you would use a bungy rope for though. I have one of those all singing, all dancing electronic braked Aframes that operate the brakes electronically.

Im guessing but you must have one of those special systems that does everything for you?


How old is your smart car? Do you ever try to reverse it on the motorhome? The castor principle is one you cannot use sorry. The reason for it is...the rear tyres and wheels are bigger on the Smart car so the 'Ackeman principle' does not work correctly. (I think your 'basic physics ' statement stops here!) If the wheels at the back are wider than the front...Regardless of being attached to an 'A"frame...it will not follow the driving vehicle without the steering wheels having some sort of restriction. That being power steering and hydraulics or ....a bungee strap! Car aTOw and Towtal fit this to prevent the front wheels from attempting to move on take up of drive on the smart car. That does not mean you have to have one fitted. That is up to those of you/us who think we know better.

Look down at the castors next time you are in Tescos or Morrisons or whatever...watch the front castors shuffle before the speed you push it at..allows them to be equal. Now thats Physics for you!

Try researching Car a tow and TowTal...leaders in the market and obviously more knowledgable that some .
Ask the question to those that do...rather than use 'basic physics'..There is more to it and i think you know, you know that too.

 

[Pausim]

My 2010 CDI Smart frequently got the dreaded wheel wobble and I don’t think it had anything to do with the lack of a steering lock. You can’t tow with a steering lock on and a disengaged one is no different from none at all. Only ever happened when pulling away on a tightish turn and triggered by something like a pot hole or the hump on a mini roundabout. It seemed to knock the wheels off their alignment and the momentum in the steering as it rapidly corrected would carry it beyond the point where it should have settled. Thereafter the wheels would start banging from stop to stop, shaking both vehicles. The only way to stop it was to pull up and pull away gently.

I think part of the problem was the lack of weight over the front wheels. Possibly helped by the length of the overhang on the towing vehicle exaggerating the sideways movement.

I cured the problem by damping the steering wheel. A strap over the steering wheel hub anchored to the seat sliders with two bungee straps did the trick without restricting the steering movement. There was lots about the problem on US RV sites.

 

[Snowbird]

As I cannot see my Smarty behind the motorhome, I have no idea what its doing. I have never attempted to reverse it as it would be impossible to reverse something you cannot see. I did tow the Smarty from Worcester to Liverpool behind my pickup truck when I bought it and could see it and I suppose I would have felt it had it been dancing around. Anyway, if I am supposed to put a bungy rope on the thing when towing with the motorhome, where do I put said bungy ?.

 

[Pausim]

As I cannot see my Smarty behind the motorhome, I have no idea what its doing. I have never attempted to reverse it as it would be impossible to reverse something you cannot see. I did tow the Smarty from Worcester to Liverpool behind my pickup truck when I bought it and could see it and I suppose I would have felt it had it been dancing around. Anyway, if I am supposed to put a bungy rope on the thing when towing with the motorhome, where do I put said bungy ?.

You will know if it happens, it is not gentle. It only ever happened to me at slow speeds and I could stop it by stopping and pulling away gently. I wouldn’t bother with the bungee damping unless you notice a problem, it doesn’t happen to all Smarts.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

As I cannot see my Smarty behind the motorhome, I have no idea what its doing. I have never attempted to reverse it as it would be impossible to reverse something you cannot see. I did tow the Smarty from Worcester to Liverpool behind my pickup truck when I bought it and could see it and I suppose I would have felt it had it been dancing around. Anyway, if I am supposed to put a bungy rope on the thing when towing with the motorhome, where do I put said bungy ?.

Your car will not bounce about as you put it it when moving at speed. Its purely when taking up drive and when you reverse it . That is when the wheels will tend to move about a little. Its not a lot but it can be disconcerting when it does happen!
Car atow and Towtal use the bungee strap from the seat frame (Connected to the floor) to the steering wheel when in the straight ahead position. It goes around the steering wheel and back to the seat frame. The idea is to restrict the movement of the steering wheels as discussed preventing the front wheels trying to move beyond straight ahead.

kev

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Pausim]

I cured the problem by damping the steering wheel. A strap over the steering wheel hub anchored to the seat sliders with two bungee straps did the trick without restricting the steering movement. There was lots about the problem on US RV sites.

I need to correct my earlier post because I modified the arrangement. I ended up using a short length of garden hose with a length of rope running through it. I tied off the rope at each end of the hose using a bowline knot. This gave me two loops to hook my bungee straps to and stopped the hose sliding along the rope. The hose pipe sat on the small gap between the steering wheel hub and the fixed bit of the steering column and was anchored with two bungee straps to the seat floor rails. It provided just enough friction to stop the steering wheel banging from stop to stop without restricting the full range of movement needed.

 

[Minxy]

@Minxy Girl is our resident Smart expert.

Why thank you Lenny, no-one has every called me a Smart expert before ... I'm clever, but wouldn't say Smart ...

Ah, you mean about Smart cars ... silly me!

In this instance I will have to put my hand up and say I don' t know the answer ... I've never ever towed a Smart car as all mine have been 'virgin' ones so never had an a-frame fitted.

I can see the logic, however, of having some sort of turning restrictor on the steering, not to stop it turning completely, but to give some resistance so that it doesn't go from one extreme to the other which could seriously damage it.

We used to tow a Bond Minicar on a braked bar, similar idea to an a-frame as the car stayed on it's own wheels, we stopped using it eventually though and had a bespoke trailer made (to my design) as we found constantly pulling the car around on the bar caused the worm and sector steering to be badly worn, not such an issue on more modern cars with better steering systems, but our Bond was made in 1966.

 

[Lenny HB]

We used to tow a Bond Minicar

Blimey showing you age now, I always thought you were the young hot chick on Fun.

 

[Minxy]

Blimey showing you age now, I always thought you were the young hot chick on Fun.

I hasten to add that we didn't buy it NEW in 1966 ... I was only 3 at the time it was produced!

 

[tonyidle]

Could you provide more advice about which model year the Smart car changed, making it incompatible for towing? I've heard this before, but not sure how recent the car can be and remain suitable to tow.

Thanks!

2014 - onwards. Up to 2014 models all Smarts used robotic manual gearboxes: these are conventional gearboxes with a conventional clutch but are operated by servos under software control. This means they have a conventional Neutral. They are automatic only inasmuch as they can be made to appear that way to the driver. From 2014 model year Smarts use a "twin clutch" automatic. This type of gearbox still doesn't have a torque converter like a traditional automatic but uses two clutches: when driving one clutch is engaged. The second clutch is connected to the next gear that you're likely to need which is engaged and ready for use. When the next gear is needed the first clutch disengages and the second engages giving an almost seamless change. All gearbox and clutch functions are under software control. Cars fitted with this type of gearbox, as far as I am aware, cannot be towed. From a user viewpoint this latest gearbox is by far the most sophisticated and smooth version.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Howard H]

Am I doing it wrong then my old smart has a bungee strap crimped at one end to the seat frame and the other hook end I put around the brake pedal to keep it up and as a return spring when towing. This is what I was told to do when I bought it , should the bungee go round the steering wheel then not the brake ?

 

[Larrynwin]

To make shopping easier I’m thinking of putting a shopping trolley on the back of my motorhome, anyone know who’s best to fit an a frame to a Sainsbury’s trolley.

 

[Pausim]

Am I doing it wrong then my old smart has a bungee strap crimped at one end to the seat frame and the other hook end I put around the brake pedal to keep it up and as a return spring when towing. This is what I was told to do when I bought it , should the bungee go round the steering wheel then not the brake ?

The brake bungee is a separate thing and you seem to be using it correctly. Not all Smarts have the steering wobble problem and therefore do not need extra bungee devices. If you get wheel wobble you will know all about it because it violently shakes the back end of the motorhome, usually as you pull away on a corner or mini roundabout. I never had a problem once under way.

 

[Pausim]

To make shopping easier I’m thinking of putting a shopping trolley on the back of my motorhome, anyone know who’s best to fit an a frame to a Sainsbury’s trolley.

Why not ask Sainsbury for advice before liberating the trolley. Best to keep it well greased because they often seem to end up in canals and rivers.

 

[Snowbird]

Am rather intrigued about this wobble thing. I towed an old Fiat panda around for years on a home made Aframe with several different motorhomes. It did have this mysterious wobble occasionally on my Tiffin Allegro and I found it was due to the towball height. After fitting a drop plate on the RV the panda was fine afterwards. Am just wondering if some Smarties are OK and some not, is it due to the motorhome ball height. My old Panda car below.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Lenny HB]

NEW in 1966 ... I was only 3 at the time it was produced!

Still retain your young hot chick status then.

 

[mikebeaches]

2014 - onwards. Up to 2014 models all Smarts used robotic manual gearboxes: these are conventional gearboxes with a conventional clutch but are operated by servos under software control. This means they have a conventional Neutral. They are automatic only inasmuch as they can be made to appear that way to the driver. From 2014 model year Smarts use a "twin clutch" automatic. This type of gearbox still doesn't have a torque converter like a traditional automatic but uses two clutches: when driving one clutch is engaged. The second clutch is connected to the next gear that you're likely to need which is engaged and ready for use. When the next gear is needed the first clutch disengages and the second engages giving an almost seamless change. All gearbox and clutch functions are under software control. Cars fitted with this type of gearbox, as far as I am aware, cannot be towed. From a user viewpoint this latest gearbox is by far the most sophisticated and smooth version.

Wow, that is helpful and informative - thank you Tony!

We've got the comfortmatic gearbox on the van, and in fact had a robotic gearbox on a Citroen C3 as far back as 2006, so familiar with the principle. Incidentally, the C3 gearbox was much derided by the motoring press at the time, saying it was hopeless. But we liked it and one of my sons still has the car 13 years later, and during that time I think there has been one software glitch with the gearbox that had to be fixed under a recall (free), otherwise it's been faultless - still on the original clutch.

Appreciate you taking the trouble to explain about the newer system, which sounds very clever from a driving perspective, but not suitable for towing.

Cheers, Mike

 

[Louis]

To make shopping easier I’m thinking of putting a shopping trolley on the back of my motorhome, anyone know who’s best to fit an a frame to a Sainsbury’s trolley.

Tescos

 

[Geo]

Not all Smarts suffer it!
Yet all smarts are built the same?

Take it from someone who has towed smarts built and fitted a frames and has a little knowledge re steering systems
The Cause without any fear of contradiction is Driver Error
Take your bungees off and pull out from Junctions much slower
I have researched tested and proved a Smart with no previous tendency to wobble can be encouraged to do so with a sharper fast left or right turn/ pull away from stationary even just pulling out from a kerb to fast can bring it on
The wobble is simply the steering trying to sync with the Motorhomes direction, once started its like a tank slapper on a motor bike, only stopping and pulling off again will stop it

 

[Pausim]

Not all Smarts suffer it!
Yet all smarts are built the same?

Take it from someone who has towed smarts built and fitted a frames and has a little knowledge re steering systems
The Cause without any fear of contradiction is Driver Error
Take your bungees off and pull out from Junctions much slower
I have researched tested and proved a Smart with no previous tendency to wobble can be encouraged to do so with a sharper fast left or right turn/ pull away from stationary even just pulling out from a kerb to fast can bring it on
The wobble is simply the steering trying to sync with the Motorhomes direction, once started its like a tank slapper on a motor bike, only stopping and pulling off again will stop it

Well obviously it was all driver error on my part. However, to prove you wrong on at least the “without any fear of contradiction” I shall now contradict you.

I agree that pulling away and turning sharply can set it off but there were occasions when even pulling away gently and knowing of the problem I could not avoid it. One example was turning right at a particularl small mini roundabout on the way to my mother in laws house, clipping the hump with the osf Smart wheel was inevitable and it always set it off no matter how slowly I proceeded. On another occasion I was pulling out of a side road with the usual Buckinghamshire pot holes but the sudden arrival of a speeding vehicle meant I had to get a move on and the pot hole triggered it. You may consider it driver error but I consider it driving within the normal parameters of driver behaviour. In my opinion it is not always appropriate to drive gently, there are occassions when you need to hurry a little bit.

You say all Smarts are built the same but I suspect that diesels and other options affect the weight distribution. Some motorhomes have longer distances between the back wheels and the tow hitch than others. Some A frames have longer arms than others. Have you tested every every combination?

By all means have an opinion and disagree with the opinions expressed by others. But please do not accuse someone of “driver error” and imply that your opinion can not be questioned by stating “without any fear of contradiction”. I feel perfectly entitled to contradict you even if, as you imply, you have greater knowledge than others.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}