Super B, Epsilon 90Ahr L-ion batteries

[Chrisvh]

Does anyone have experience of Super B, Epsilon 90Ahr L-ion batteries?
My dealer has offered a deal to fit them replacing the existing 2 AGM batteries. The only additional equipment they recommend will be a temperature sensor and a Victron shunt.
Current installation is:
2 x Banner 595 AGM 95Ah batteries
Schaudt Booster WA 121525 Battery to Battery boost controller
Dometic PerfectCharge MCA1225 Battery Charger
Votronic MP 250 Duo Solar Regulator.
Roof mounted 150w solar panel

I have trawled the forum for information and had a close look at Eddie, of VanBitz, article on Lithium. It is a few levels above my electrical and technical expertise. I would be really grateful for any comments and advice.

 

[eddie]

Does anyone have experience of Super B, Epsilon 90Ahr L-ion batteries?
My dealer has offered a deal to fit them replacing the existing 2 AGM batteries. The only additional equipment they recommend will be a temperature sensor and a Victron shunt.
Current installation is:
2 x Banner 595 AGM 95Ah batteries
Schaudt Booster WA 121525 Battery to Battery boost controller
Dometic PerfectCharge MCA1225 Battery Charger
Votronic MP 250 Duo Solar Regulator.
Roof mounted 150w solar panel

I have trawled the forum for information and had a close look at Eddie, of VanBitz, article on Lithium. It is a few levels above my electrical and technical expertise. I would be really grateful for any comments and advice.

To be honest I get loads of emails at work asking me if this will work with that, and what about "This"? Followed by a page full of links for me to sit open and research, and give an opinion and of course carry the can when it all catches fire and writes off the motorhome, so I politely say, "No idea, your call"

However, if the dealer is recommending this set up, you want it and need it go for it. If something turns out to be inadequate and needs sorting the dealer will be responsible and if it all goes BANG then again, the dealer carries the responsibility

 

[Chrisvh]

Thanks Eddie. As always succinct and with a wealth of experience and knowledge.

 

[autorouter]

On the other hand, I'm just some guy on the internet, who you listen to at your own risk.

The main differences from lead-acid to lithium are the charge profile (voltage levels, no float charging required) and not charging lithium below zero degrees C.

The Schaudt WA 121525 Booster B2B has a lithium setting, and also has the option of a temperature sensor.

The Votronic MPP 250 Duo solar controller also has a lithium setting, and the option of temperature sensor "Highly recommended if the battery temperature might drop below 0C during operation" it says in the manual.

The Dometic charger does not have a lithium battery charge setting. However the voltage settings do not exceed 14.6V. Page 25 of the manual shows the DIP switch settings. The least bad settings are switches 1 & 2 ON, switch 3 off, but that's just my opinion. There is no protection against charging below 0C, even if you fit a temperature sensor.

If it was my motorhome, I'd be thinking of changing the charger to one with a lithium profile, with a temperature sensor. Also this charger has an output to keep the starter battery charged, so I'd be looking to get something like a BatteryMaster or a mains battery maintainer like an Optimate.

 

[eddie]

On the other hand, I'm just some guy on the internet, who you listen to at your own risk.

Who is extremely knowledgeable

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[andy63]

The only additional equipment they recommend will be a temperature sensor

What purpose will the temp sensor serve..I'm asking because with lithium as far as I know the only purpose of that sensor would be to prevent charge at extremes in temperature.. so I'm assuming that your present charger could be configured to do that..
If its purpose is to alter the charging voltage with varying ambient temperature which is normal with lead acid batteries, then you shouldn't fit it..
I would be asking them that question..

Andy

 

[autorouter]

What purpose will the temp sensor serve..I'm asking because with lithium as far as I know the only purpose of that sensor would be to prevent charge at extremes in temperature.. so I'm assuming that your present charger could be configured to do that..

If the chargers are different brands that don't coordinate their readings, then a separate temperature sensor for each charger is needed. The sensors are accessories specific to each charger model.

That particular mains charger doesn't have a lithium setting, and won't stop charging below 0C even if you fit a temperature sensor.

 

[andy63]

That particular mains charger doesn't have a lithium setting, and won't stop charging below 0C even if you fit a temperature sensor.

So what are you saying?
Why would they say a temp sensor should be fitted..
Andy

 

[autorouter]

I'm not sure. They might mean fit a sensor to both the B2B and the MPPT. Or they might mean fit a Victron shunt, which can have a sensor attached to the shunt. I don't know what good that would do. It could communicate by Bluetooth to a Victron SmartSolar MPPT and possibly a Victron B2B. I'd guess it can't communicate with the Schaudt and Votronic devices, but I might be wrong about that.

 

[andy63]

Thanks for that.. its just the instructions I received with my mppt controller specifically said remove the temp sensor if on the lithium profile.. as its only job was to regulate the voltage slightly depending on ambient temp..
So unless a charger has a lithium profile and the temp sensor can switch the charger off then I cant see a need for one..
Andy

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[Chrisvh]

Thanks for all the above. The whole subject is a bit of a minefield for the unqualified/inexperienced and it helps to get different perspectives on it. I had a very severe shock at work, courtesy of a dealer, and have been very cautious since.

 

[Ingwe]

Thanks for all the above. The whole subject is a bit of a minefield for the unqualified/inexperienced and it helps to get different perspectives on it. I had a very severe shock at work, courtesy of a dealer, and have been very cautious since.

Dis die waarheid, boet!

 

[Silver-Fox]

Does anyone have experience of Super B, Epsilon 90Ahr L-ion batteries?
My dealer has offered a deal to fit them replacing the existing 2 AGM batteries. The only additional equipment they recommend will be a temperature sensor and a Victron shunt.
Current installation is:
2 x Banner 595 AGM 95Ah batteries
Schaudt Booster WA 121525 Battery to Battery boost controller
Dometic PerfectCharge MCA1225 Battery Charger
Votronic MP 250 Duo Solar Regulator.
Roof mounted 150w solar panel

I have trawled the forum for information and had a close look at Eddie, of VanBitz, article on Lithium. It is a few levels above my electrical and technical expertise. I would be really grateful for any comments and advice.

I suppose the question I’d be asking

Is it a good deal and also do I need the new batteries.

 

[Chrisvh]

Dis die waarheid, boet!

Ek hoop dit is.

 

[Chrisvh]

I suppose the question I’d be asking

Is it a good deal and also do I need the new batteries.

If I go for it I will update the thread.

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[steveh57]

I have the Dometic Perfectcharge MCA1225 as well, just wondering if it's time to swap it out for one with a Lithium profile. I was thinking the Victron Blue Smart IP22 charger would do the job nicely unless there's a better alternative.

 

[Chrisvh]

I have the Dometic Perfectcharge MCA1225 as well, just wondering if it's time to swap it out for one with a Lithium profile. I was thinking the Victron Blue Smart IP22 charger would do the job nicely unless there's a better alternative.

I was considering the same charger if the Dometic was unsuitable. I will have a discussion with the dealer and see what they say. They say they have installed LifePo batteries with the Dometic and have had no problems. They say there are settings that will accommodate lithium despite there being no specific lithium setting. Autorouter was good enough to give his opinion above which was very useful. I will err on the side of safety/efficiency if a new charger is required.

 

[steveh57]

Indeed I noted Autorouter's advice regarding the settings, however as he said "the least bad settings" which doesn't inspire me with confidence in the charger for LifePO4 going forwards. It will still attempt to condition the battery every 12 days which is obviously not required. I did find another version of the MCA1225 manual (https://mygenerator.com.au/media/Dometic_Perfect_Charge_Battery_Charger_Manual.pdf) page 24 which has a dip setting for Dometic e store lithium batteries i.e one on three on - which I believe is in the usual version of the manual as the power supply mode (constant voltage) dip switch settings. Just wondering again what are the downsides of using this mode?

 

[sallylillian]

Super B are factory standard fit for Morelo. They have built in BMS which has temperature controlled charge cut off at circa 5c. You don't need temperature sensing for the charging algorithm. I have all Victron kit feeding my 4 off 160amp Super B. The big brothers to those you are considering. My Victron MPPT and Multiplus all play well with them.
My guess is if you have a good installer who can deal with your ebl then that should be fine.

 

[Chrisvh]

Indeed I noted Autorouter's advice regarding the settings, however as he said "the least bad settings" which doesn't inspire me with confidence in the charger for LifePO4 going forwards. It will still attempt to condition the battery every 12 days which is obviously not required. I did find another version of the MCA1225 manual (https://mygenerator.com.au/media/Dometic_Perfect_Charge_Battery_Charger_Manual.pdf) page 24 which has a dip setting for Dometic e store lithium batteries i.e one on three on - which I believe is in the usual version of the manual as the power supply mode (constant voltage) dip switch settings. Just wondering again what are the downsides of using this mode?

The learning curve gets steeper! The dealer will guarantee the installation so I will probably go with it. I will ask specific questions based on the above observations. Any more info and I will update the thread.

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[sallylillian]

I have read that the Super B Epsilon batteries have built in BT and there is a Super B app.

 

[autorouter]

Super B are factory standard fit for Morelo. They have built in BMS which has temperature controlled charge cut off at circa 5c.

So does the BMS cut off charging below 5C, but leave the power connections connected? Or does it just shut off everything when the temperature gets near freezing?

 

[funflair]

So does the BMS cut off charging below 5C, but leave the power connections connected? Or does it just shut off everything when the temperature gets near freezing?

The spec for the Epsilon actually says charging from -10C and discharge from -20C they are a different cell to the Nomia that charge from 0C and discharge from -10C, the spec says that it regulates low temperature charging, Super B do promote the Epsilon as a drop in replacement for lead acid but describe the Nomia as a more specialised bit of kit.


From Super B web site,

InCharge app provides 24/7 information about the state of charge, time to go and status of the battery.

FEATURES
• Traction battery
• Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4):

safe lithium technology
• Integrated short circuit protection
• Integrated BMS (Battery-Management system)
• Charge current regulator, for safe low temperature
charging
• CAN / LIN / Bluetooth interface for battery
monitoring
• Battery monitoring / History Storage
• Adaptive cell balancing
• Monitoring via BeInCharge Bluetooth app for
SAFETY
iOS and Android
Super B batteries are based on Lithium Iron Phosphate technology (LiFePO4). This is the safest Lithium technology availa

 

[autorouter]

The spec for the Epsilon actually says charging from -10C and discharge from -20C they are a different cell to the Nomia that charge from 0C and discharge from -10C, the spec says that it regulates low temperature charging

Reading the manual (not the Charging Manual, which says nothing about temperature), from 0C to -10C, the BMS regulates the charging current to 400mA. So it doesn't just cut off like some BMSs do, and will presumably allow discharging currents at the normal rate, at least as far as -20C. So that effectively solves the low temperature charging problem.

 

[royw]

So does the BMS cut off charging below 5C, but leave the power connections connected? Or does it just shut off everything when the temperature gets near freezing?

Isit not just the charging thats an issue not the consuming.

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[autorouter]

Isit not just the charging thats an issue not the consuming.

Yes, but some BMSs just cut off the whole battery, leaving you without power. This one is better, it just regulates the charging down to 400mA, and leaves the discharging as normal.

 

[Chrisvh]

Thanks again for the additional information and opinions.