Something to make you think and hopefully be a better person! (Sorry its a long one)

[scotzsue]

Yesterday i had to postpone a meeting with a friend who is ADHD and autistic, highly intelligent think in the end I was more upset as I know how changes in plans can affect her. will struggle to fit in a meeting in the next couple of weeks but will go to see her one evening if that is the only time I can.

 

[15edward]

Just a quick point neourodiverse covers everyone. Neurodivergent are those who's brain works different from the "norm"

I appreciate this an accepted understanding
However I think it’s much more helpful to use neurodiverse in describing people.
To use “ norm” and “divergent” from in my opinion only reinforces ideas of disability and otherness and doesn’t help with inclusiveness

This describes this approach

Neurodiversity​

The neurodiversity paradigm is a framework for understanding human brain function that considers the diversity within sensory processing, motor abilities, social comfort, cognition, and focus as neurobiological differences. This diversity falls on a spectrum of neurocognitive differences. The neurodiversity paradigm argues that diversity in neurocognition is part of humanity and that some neurodivergences generally classified as disorders, such as autism, are differences with strengths and weaknesses as well as disabilities that are not necessarily pathological. Wikipedia

 

[Coolcats]

There’s alot of anxiety about government plans fur EHCPs at the moment
But if they can think big enough they can do a lot to make sure schools adapt for all children and different learning styles

Problem is Learning styles are a myth and perpetuated by "Management Guru's" and some Educators

 

[Coolcats]

Certainly not in the school I volunteer in. The children that struggle (and there quite a few), all get some 121 help from classroom assistants and/or volunteers.

My main role is to provide reading assistance to all the children in a class of 34 mixed ability pupils for a day a week, especially helping those that are dyslexic, plus my dog is there for the occasions when any child has a 'meltdown', is anxious or just needs comfort. She is a trained therapy dog.


??????

What Scools really need are Cats...Just keep them away from Maths Physics and Science Labs

 

[meanders]

Even rocket scientists need to eat and drink. Almost all members of society have value.

Von Braun was almost certainly on the spectrum, as was Turing and indeed many top scientists, engineers and inventors.

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[meanders]

Problem is Learning styles

Really. Not true in my experience of caring for 60+ kids and having spent time as a volunteer in the classroom. Some kids learn a lot better visually, some learn better by sight and touch and others excel at storing facts by rote. Nowt to do with management guru's, indeed the very best teachers recognised that before the guru's were born.

 

[meanders]

I would add that jezport has written a really well constructed piece in the first post. Well done for putting it out there. Lots of cruel comments over many years directed at some of our children because they were / are a little different.

 

[Coolcats]

Really. Not true in my experience of caring for 60+ kids and having spent time as a volunteer in the classroom. Some kids learn a lot better visually, some learn better by sight and touch and others excel at storing facts by rote. Nowt to do with management guru's, indeed the very best teachers recognised that before the guru's were born.

Learning styles has been taught to teachers as a 'thing' it is a Zombie theory that keeps racing its head and its like a game of wack a mole to change this. Management training companies also use this here we go and whist not a UK organisation this University has learning styles questionnaire, and a UK one. There are just so many organisations still using this Zombi Theory and it just needs to DIE

 

[jerryz]

Thank you all for this Thread ,,,

I was diagnosed with Autism at 66 years old , knowing that has transformed my life , before then i suffered from a black hole in my soul like a cancer in my personality and felt disconnected from humanity , had mental health crisises from age 8 until recently ,because despite Therapy, drugs , counselling, psychiatry etc etc no one could explain why I was like i am , I had a 3 very successful careers and 2 good marriages , been all over the world and a great life but punctuated with terrible episodes of depression , suicide and other problems .....

However since Autism diagnosis I am now very different person everything now makes sense , the black hole in my soul has gone completely , the cancer in my mind is dead , I now stand on solid ground .... Shame it did not happen 60 years ago.......

 

[15edward]

I’m not sure CoolCats how you can reconcile your post #16 which recognises and celebrates differences
With your post #38 denying Learning styles….

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[meanders]

Learning styles has been taught to teachers as a 'thing' it is a Zombie theory that keeps racing its head and its like a game of wack a mole to change this. Management training companies also use this here we go and whist not a UK organisation this University has learning styles questionnaire, and a UK one. There are just so many organisations still using this Zombi Theory and it just needs to DIE

I have not been taught it at all. I repeat that am saying that from the observation and experience of 60+ children over half a century, some children learn very differently from others. If that does not match with your belief's I apologise, and if that make me a Zombie, then so be it, but I have no other explanation for what I have witnessed with my own eyes. I am also a qualified trainer of adults although have not done so for years, and again I know from raw experience that for some individuals I needed to adjust or completely change my approach as a one-size fit's all does not work. Whether you call it 'learning style', 'pedagogical approach', 'cognitive recognition' (certainly not management speak) or something else, it's a case of knowing you as the instructor have to adapt the subject to suit the individual's own way of assimilating and processing information, while taking into account their current level of knowledge.

 

[Puddleduck]

Honey & Mumford Learning Styles, totally explained [with theory diagram] — BiteSize Learning

Honey and Mumford's clever theory reveals 4 types of learner – the activist, theorist, pragmatist and reflector. Learn more about this concept and its insightful advantages.

www.bitesizelearning.co.uk

There is a quiz which goes with this and I used it a lot when working for a mental health day centre. Lots of our clients round it useful and that it explained why "talk and chalk" hadn't worked for them.

I always used to say that if someone didn't understand I hadn't explained properly and that was my problem not theirs. Also the only stupid question was one they wanted to ask but didn't as if one person wanted to ask most others in the group also wanted to ask but weren't willing to.

 

[meanders]

Interestingly have just spent a few minutes of Google prompted by this thread as always open to ideas, the supposed research shows 'learning style' is a myth, yet 'pedagogical approach' is definitely not! Yet they are teaching method is a key part of the latter so in effect they are one and the same thing! Indeed "A good pedagogical approach recognizes that students have diverse learning needs and styles, requiring flexibility and adjustments!" So in reality it's the 'term' that has fallen out of favour, but the need to ensure each individual has understood the point still stands and is a key concept in ensuring the recipient cognitively acquires, stores and is able to recall the imparted information.

 

[Silver-Fox]

, I had a 3 very successful careers and 2 good marriages , been all over the world and a great life but punctuated with terrible episodes of depression , suicide and other problems .....

I read a book titled depression the affliction of the strong.

Its an interesting read given I don’t read books

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

Honey & Mumford Learning Styles, totally explained [with theory diagram] — BiteSize Learning

Honey and Mumford's clever theory reveals 4 types of learner – the activist, theorist, pragmatist and reflector. Learn more about this concept and its insightful advantages.

www.bitesizelearning.co.uk

There is a quiz which goes with this and I used it a lot when working for a mental health day centre. Lots of our clients round it useful and that it explained why "talk and chalk" hadn't worked for them.

I always used to say that if someone didn't understand I hadn't explained properly and that was my problem not theirs. Also the only stupid question was one they wanted to ask but didn't as if one person wanted to ask most others in the group also wanted to ask but weren't willing to.

Fascinating. I think I'm a pragmatist or activist, according to my reading of that.

However I tripped over on the first line, where it read,
'Have you ever wondered why some people seem to enjoy learning different skills to others?'

Does others mean different skills or other people, I wonder. and also, it should say 'different from' instead of 'different to'.

Maybe I've got several issues

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[meanders]

Fascinating. I think I'm a pragmatist or activist, according to my reading of that.

However I tripped over on the first line, where it read,
'Have you ever wondered why some people seem to enjoy learning different skills to others?'

Does others mean different skills or other people, I wonder. and also, it should say 'different from' instead of 'different to'.

Maybe I've got several issues

I think we all have several issues! Vive la difference!

 

[Coolcats]

I have not been taught it at all. I repeat that am saying that from the observation and experience of 60+ children over half a century, some children learn very differently from others. If that does not match with your belief's I apologise, and if that make me a Zombie, then so be it, but I have no other explanation for what I have witnessed with my own eyes. I am also a qualified trainer of adults although have not done so for years, and again I know from raw experience that for some individuals I needed to adjust or completely change my approach as a one-size fit's all does not work. Whether you call it 'learning style', 'pedagogical approach', 'cognitive recognition' (certainly not management speak) or something else, it's a case of knowing you as the instructor have to adapt the subject to suit the individual's own way of assimilating and processing information, while taking into account their current level of knowledge.

Ok Humans are multimodal and will learn in multiple ways,

It’s often said the engineers open a box lion at the contents and assemble…then read the instruction manual so if you apply the ‘Learning styles’ theory you would able all engineers as ‘visual’ learners but that simply is not the case what they are doing is using previous experience and cognitive models to assemble said product…sometimes it works and when it doesn’t go for the Manual.

The context changes every time we learn so don’t get bound up by ‘they’ learn visually or Audibly.

Think of learning to play an instrument to learn this just by watching that would be highly unlikely it can be part of the learning but not the whole.

I do not disagree the instructor should adapt to who is front of them

I didn’t say you or anyone else was a Zombie I said that Learning Styles is a zombie theory and somehow it keeps poping up and needs killing off.

 

[meanders]

I do not disagree the instructor should adapt to who is front of them

I didn’t say you or anyone else was a Zombie I said that Learning Styles is a zombie theory and somehow it keeps poping up and needs killing off.

We 99% agree, but the above two paragraphs appear to be in contention. I am content to drop the 'term' if it makes you happy, but it's in the vernacular and most that use it understand exactly what it means and do not use it rigidly but as a way of recognising those differences as as s tructure for considering differing approaches. If you accept that the instructor needs to adapt, then the basic principle of people learning differently is surely a 'given'?

 

[Carpmart]

The human race is varied and divergent and I fail to understand why it’s important to add labels to individuals characteristics, there in making them different, when the reality is we are all unique?

Society loves to label people and prescribe what everyone else should perceive as normal…

 

[Coolcats]

Honey & Mumford Learning Styles, totally explained [with theory diagram] — BiteSize Learning

Honey and Mumford's clever theory reveals 4 types of learner – the activist, theorist, pragmatist and reflector. Learn more about this concept and its insightful advantages.

www.bitesizelearning.co.uk

There is a quiz which goes with this and I used it a lot when working for a mental health day centre. Lots of our clients round it useful and that it explained why "talk and chalk" hadn't worked for them.

I always used to say that if someone didn't understand I hadn't explained properly and that was my problem not theirs. Also the only stupid question was one they wanted to ask but didn't as if one person wanted to ask most others in the group also wanted to ask but weren't willing to.

Fascinating. I think I'm a pragmatist or activist, according to my reading of that.

However I tripped over on the first line, where it read,
'Have you ever wondered why some people seem to enjoy learning different skills to others?'

Does others mean different skills or other people, I wonder. and also, it should say 'different from' instead of 'different to'.

Maybe I've got several issues

Interestingly have just spent a few minutes of Google prompted by this thread as always open to ideas, the supposed research shows 'learning style' is a myth, yet 'pedagogical approach' is definitely not! Yet they are teaching method is a key part of the latter so in effect they are one and the same thing! Indeed "A good pedagogical approach recognizes that students have diverse learning needs and styles, requiring flexibility and adjustments!" So in reality it's the 'term' that has fallen out of favour, but the need to ensure each individual has understood the point still stands and is a key concept in ensuring the recipient cognitively acquires, stores and is able to recall the imparted information.

VARK is not a real “thing”

We all learn differently and through differing ways depending on the learning in from of us.

“As educators it's important to follow best practice and try and keep up to date with research and developments in teaching and learning. Therefore, categorising learners as VARK or suggesting they do so is to be avoided!

However, allowing learners opportunities to encounter new language and concepts in a variety of forms – in texts, audio, video, pictures, charts, diagrams – is good practice. There are a number of reasons why.

• To learn something, we need to encounter it many times, so providing new language in multiple forms – stories, songs, videos, games – helps learners remember it.
• Language has different forms – a written form and a sound – so when you're teaching a new piece of vocabulary, for example, learners need to know what it looks like and sounds like. They also need to be able to understand it and produce it in order to fully know the new word.
• Variety is a great way to keep learners' attention, and when learners are attentive and active, they are most receptive to learning.

But the idea that each learner has one style or way of learning that is best for them – and that educators should identify and exploit it – is false. This sort of categorising can actually have negative effects.

Learners and learning are complex​

'Learning styles suggest that individuals have one way to learn best. Unfortunately, learning is complex, and not easy.'2

Learning is complex and so are learners. They have many different characteristics and have different needs. These needs can change over time or vary from day to day or lesson to lesson! Perhaps one suggestion is to view the variety of activities you use as a form of differentiation and that not every activity will appeal to every learner. Some learners will benefit more from one activity than from another.

To summarise, in order to maintain learners' attention, cater for a large group of individuals and keep everyone challenged and supported, you should continue to vary the tasks you use and the sorts of input you provide but NOT because it caters to every learning style but because this variety in learning is what makes it stick.



References

1 Willingham, DT, Hughes, EM & Dobolyi, DG. 2015. The scientific status of learning styles theories. Teaching of Psychology, 42(3), 266–271.

2 Straub, EO. 2024. Roundup on research: The myth of 'learning styles'. Available from https://onlineteaching.umich.edu/articles/the-myth-of-learning-styles/

3 Kirschner, PA. 2017. Stop propagating the learning styles myth. Computers & Education, 106, 166–171.

4 Swansea University. 2021. New review says ineffective 'learning styles' theory persists in education around the world. Available from https://www.swansea.ac.uk/press-off...y-persists-in-education-around-the-world-.php“

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[Coolcats]

We 99% agree, but the above two paragraphs appear to be in contention. I am content to drop the 'term' if it makes you happy, but it's in the vernacular and most that use it understand exactly what it means and do not use it rigidly but as a way of recognising those differences as as s tructure for considering differing approaches. If you accept that the instructor needs to adapt, then the basic principle of people learning differently is surely a 'given'?

Learners learn, that’s all we need to know and allow flexibility and multiple ways of learning.

Whilst on my Horse another theory which gets banged about is Growth Mindset Oh Please! if Carol Dewck is involved in a study it seems all the outcomes are positive yet when applied by others no difference or even the opposite results happen it’s another Theory that cannot be universally applied yet taken up and heralded as ‘the thing’

 

[Silver-Fox]

Society loves to label people and prescribe what everyone else should perceive as normal…

Frustrating or what??

 

[meanders]

Equally:
Pedagogy, in the context of learning, refers to the methods and strategies teachers use to facilitate learning. It encompasses the art and science of teaching, including how teachers deliver content, engage students, and assess their understanding. It's essentially the "how" of teaching, considering not just what is taught but also how it's taught to create effective and enjoyable learning experiences.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Methods and Strategies:
  Pedagogy involves a range of approaches, from direct instruction and lecturing to more interactive and student-centered methods like inquiry-based learning and collaborative activities.
  
  
• Teacher's Role:
  Pedagogy also defines the teacher's role in the learning process, whether it's more of a facilitator, guide, or direct instructor.
  
  
• Learning Environment:
  It considers the learning environment, including the physical space, resources, and how the teacher interacts with students and their peers.
  
  
• Student-Centered vs. Teacher-Centered:
  Pedagogical approaches can be more teacher-centered, focusing on structured lessons and direct instruction, or more student-centered, emphasizing active learning, exploration, and student choice.
  
  
• Impact on Learning:
  Effective pedagogy is crucial for creating a positive and effective learning experience, where students are engaged, motivated, and able to develop a deep understanding of the subject matter.
  
  • Behaviorism: Teacher-centered, using direct instruction and repetition.
    
    
  • Constructivism: Emphasizing active learning and building knowledge through experience.
    
    
  • Inquiry-based learning: Students explore questions and develop their understanding through research and investigation.
    
    
  • Collaborative learning: Students work together to achieve a common learning goal.
    
    
  • Project-based learning: Students work on extended projects to apply their knowledge and skills.

 

[Coolcats]

Equally:
Pedagogy, in the context of learning, refers to the methods and strategies teachers use to facilitate learning. It encompasses the art and science of teaching, including how teachers deliver content, engage students, and assess their understanding. It's essentially the "how" of teaching, considering not just what is taught but also how it's taught to create effective and enjoyable learning experiences.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Methods and Strategies:
  Pedagogy involves a range of approaches, from direct instruction and lecturing to more interactive and student-centered methods like inquiry-based learning and collaborative activities.
  
  
• Teacher's Role:
  Pedagogy also defines the teacher's role in the learning process, whether it's more of a facilitator, guide, or direct instructor.
  
  
• Learning Environment:
  It considers the learning environment, including the physical space, resources, and how the teacher interacts with students and their peers.
  
  
• Student-Centered vs. Teacher-Centered:
  Pedagogical approaches can be more teacher-centered, focusing on structured lessons and direct instruction, or more student-centered, emphasizing active learning, exploration, and student choice.
  
  
• Impact on Learning:
  Effective pedagogy is crucial for creating a positive and effective learning experience, where students are engaged, motivated, and able to develop a deep understanding of the subject matter.
  • Behaviorism: Teacher-centered, using direct instruction and repetition.
    
    
  • Constructivism: Emphasizing active learning and building knowledge through experience.
    
    
  • Inquiry-based learning: Students explore questions and develop their understanding through research and investigation.
    
    
  • Collaborative learning: Students work together to achieve a common learning goal.
    
    
  • Project-based learning: Students work on extended projects to apply their knowledge and skills.

Indeed:

Good old Pavlov

And constructivism is often used when social constructivism is what is meant. And where in all this should a positivist paradigm be…because it’s missed out along with a few other theories.

 

[Googlebot]

Loving this thread and great to see people not falling out over differences of opinion.

I was with meanders and thought Coolcats was wrong about learning styles, so it’s great the evidence and references are there to see. I am now changing my mind which is what it’s all about, evidence based and respectful.

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[Silver-Fox]

Loving this thread and great to see people not falling out over differences of opinion.

I was with meanders and thought Coolcats was wrong about learning styles, so it’s great the evidence and references are there to see. I am now changing my mind which is what it’s all about, evidence based and respectful.

Put me in a classroom and doesn’t mean how big the stick is the info won’t stick in.

Show me how to do something and I’m good to go

Different strokes and all that

 

[Coolcats]

Put me in a classroom and doesn’t mean how big the stick is the info won’t stick in.

Show me how to do something and I’m good to go

Different strokes and all that

Isn’t this how we learn, I hear today that many engineers eg gas mechanicals etc used to go on a practical workshop style training. I hear today it’s paper based training which means people learn less. If it’s taught and practice (hands on) deeper learning occurs which means less mistakes in a customers premise.

It’s not about not learning in a classroom it’s how it is retained like any skill and if practical helps retention of information then that’s key.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Isn’t this how we learn, I hear today that many engineers eg gas mechanicals etc used to go on a practical workshop style training. I hear today it’s paper based training which means people learn less. If it’s taught and practice (hands on) deeper learning occurs which means less mistakes in a customers premise.

It’s not about not learning in a classroom it’s how it is retained like any skill and if practical helps retention of information then that’s key.

I’ve worked under one or two class room trained site engineers.

They’ve got degrees but ohh dear no practical or logical skills

 

[Coolcats]

Loving this thread and great to see people not falling out over differences of opinion.

I was with meanders and thought Coolcats was wrong about learning styles, so it’s great the evidence and references are there to see. I am now changing my mind which is what it’s all about, evidence based and respectful.

I had been taught about VAK and aligned myself with this and about 10 years ago I was challenged if this was true. The more I reflected on this and read I realised there are a number of theories which are held up with some basis of proposing to have credibility but when challenged do not stack up.

I have been on typical management courses, filling out questionnaires which you can bias on one occasion instead of standing in area which was supposedly ‘my type’ I stood in the middle as my radar graph would have been pretty equal, another young guy who wanted to make an impression should have been a CEO ( yet we knew he didnt currently have the skills and may never have)

 

[Coolcats]

I’ve worked under one or two class room trained site engineers.

They’ve got degrees but ohh dear no practical or logical skills

If they are trained they do have the logical skills. But this is a typical response when new recruits enter a trade, give them time and your experiance chances are they will be as good as you and may be better.

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