Smart, but dangerous, motorways.

[poppycamper]

Passenger find it very difficult to get out on "smart motorways" because there are almost always barriers, if they can get out they then have to climb over the barriers, how many on here can do that?

In addition, it is extremely difficult in today's modern cars for driver to clambour over center console to exit via nearside as recommended..

 

[busby]

Smart motorways AREN’T dangerous at all. It’s the people using them. If you pay FULL attention to the road ahead, like you’re supposed to, you should never run into a stopped vehicle! If the people who’ve broken down do what they’re supposed to by GETTING OUT OF THE STRICKEN VEHICLE and warning motorists coming up to the scene safely that there’s an issue ahead, again there won’t be a problem.
The trouble nowadays is that people:-

1. Drive WAY too close to each other
2. Drive too fast, too close
3. Are mostly distracted by either passengers or mobile phones
4. Don’t pay full attention to the road ahead
5. Assume that they have the right of way coming down slip roads
6. Are on the whole, shit drivers!

The amount of times I see people sat in broken down vehicles ( of all types ) doing sod all, on their phones, trying to stay dry and warm is utterly ridiculous! Completely unprepared for a break down and not getting OUT of their vehicles is what leads to casualties. But it’s never their fault, no. Blame someone else. IDIOTS.

I would be out of my vehicle like a shot if I broke down in a live lane BUT unfortunately not possible due to my knackered hip..I can get in and out but slowly and with great difficulty but many drivers are more disabled than me.Smart motorways are not safe...BUSBY

 

[busby]

I remember an advert on the radio about a year ago, "if you breakdown on the motorway... Go left" with a catchy song so we can all remember it.

I watched that ad for weeks before I realised what they were on about.Lets face it you don't really need telling to get as far left S you can and bail out..BUSBY

 

[Nigel P]

Most don't only lanes two and three. Tend to stay in two or three unless leaving the motorway
Now thats another thread.

Some even use the observation platforms when it is busy!!

 

[A S R]

It’s the same stupid baseless argument about guns / knives being dangerous. They aren’t. They are inanimate objects. People are dangerous.
There’s no such thing as a dangerous bit of road either. It’s how people drive on them that makes anything dangerous. Stop making excuses for bad behaviour and blaming everything you do wrong on others. You are responsible for your own actions, no one else.

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[jongood]

It’s the same stupid baseless argument about guns / knives being dangerous. They aren’t. They are inanimate objects. People are dangerous.
There’s no such thing as a dangerous bit of road either. It’s how people drive on them that makes anything dangerous. Stop making excuses for bad behaviour and blaming everything you do wrong on others. You are responsible for your own actions, no one else.

I think the point is that that the way smart motorways are configured make it a much bigger problem when something happens.

 

[Bramidan]

I actually sometimes wonder if the “keep to the left hand lane”except when overtaking is appropriate nowadays with the amount of traffic on our busiest motorways.
I used to commute, daily, on the M25, almost impossible to indicate and pull out into a constant stream of traffic, unless you have instant acceleration.
Those on the lane to your right will claim they are overtaking and moved into that lane in anticipation.
Our road system was not designed for the amount of vehicles now using the roads.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Many folks do not realise that passing an overhead Red X carries three points on the licence. Same as red traffic lights.

Good shout.

Assuming the driver even has a licence. Or hasn't been disqualified despite having accumulated more than 12 points. The deterrence has been watered down.

 

[busby]

It’s the same stupid baseless argument about guns / knives being dangerous. They aren’t. They are inanimate objects. People are dangerous.
There’s no such thing as a dangerous bit of road either. It’s how people drive on them that makes anything dangerous. Stop making excuses for bad behaviour and blaming everything you do wrong on others. You are responsible for your own actions, no one else.

Not much of comfort when your broken down in a live lane on a Smart Motorway on a December night in the rush hour is it..I am OK because everyone will see me and obay the cross above my lane...that is if I have been seen by control..I have said in the past that there is no such thing as a dangerous road but SMART MOTORWAYS are accident waiting to happen..BUSBY.

 

[busby]

I actually sometimes wonder if the “keep to the left hand lane”except when overtaking is appropriate nowadays with the amount of traffic on our busiest motorways.
I used to commute, daily, on the M25, almost impossible to indicate and pull out into a constant stream of traffic, unless you have instant acceleration.
Those on the lane to your right will claim they are overtaking and moved into that lane in anticipation.
Our road system was not designed for the amount of vehicles now using the roads.

The traffic flows better when the speed is reduced...BUSBY.

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[SpeedyDux]

If you are able to undertake cars on the inside lane.

Generally those being undertaken are travelling in the wrong lane.

Why don’t people move to the near side lanes when they are clear and insist on staying in lanes 2, 3 or 4

Ahem. I travel mostly on the M4 and M5 where most of the potholes are in Lane 1. A consequence of the HGVs adding to the frost damage.

 

[SpeedyDux]

It’s the same stupid baseless argument about guns / knives being dangerous. They aren’t. They are inanimate objects. People are dangerous.
There’s no such thing as a dangerous bit of road either. It’s how people drive on them that makes anything dangerous. Stop making excuses for bad behaviour and blaming everything you do wrong on others. You are responsible for your own actions, no one else.

Smart Motorways are not failsafe as the OP showed. Bad road design shares responsibility with poor driving.

DoT should base its decisions on an assumption that there are many drivers who have poor skills. Motorway driving isn't taught adequately for learners, who aren't even allowed to practice on a motorway. That might change soon.

The other problem I have with the "smart" motorways is that the emergency refuges are too far apart, rather small, and in some cases have a slippery painted road surface that causes brakes to lock up in the wet. Again, bad design, presumably to cut costs.

 

[bigtwin]

I have said in the past that there is no such thing as a dangerous road but SMART MOTORWAYS are accident waiting to happen..BUSBY.

Getting into a car is an accident waiting to happen. The ONLY issue that should be debated is the accident/fatality rate. It is inevitable that some of those that get into a car will die. If the data shows that the fatality rate is too high, then action would need to be taken. The fact that an individual dies on a smart motorway is NOT an argument in support of their removal. If it were, then driving on A/B roads would need to be outlawed.

The traffic flows better when the speed is reduced...BUSBY.

It may well flow better but the primary benefit is that the throughput increases.

Smart Motorways are not failsafe as the OP showed.

No, they’re not, but then neither are the folks that drive on A/B roads. If they were, people wouldn’t be dying on them at a higher rate than they do on (very safe) motorways.

Ian

 

[Oldrat]

Getting into a car is an accident waiting to happen. The ONLY issue that should be debated is the accident/fatality rate. It is inevitable that some of those that get into a car will die. If the data shows that the fatality rate is too high, then action would need to be taken. The fact that an individual dies on a smart motorway is NOT an argument in support of their removal. If it were, then driving on A/B roads would need to be outlawed.



It may well flow better but the primary benefit is that the throughput increases.



No, they’re not, but then neither are the folks that drive on A/B roads. If they were, people wouldn’t be dying on them at a higher rate than they do on (very safe) motorways.

Ian

As has been previously pointed out, you can quite easily pull off the carriageway on most A or B roads.

 

[A S R]

Not much of comfort when your broken down in a live lane on a Smart Motorway on a December night in the rush hour is it..I am OK because everyone will see me and obay the cross above my lane...that is if I have been seen by control..I have said in the past that there is no such thing as a dangerous road but SMART MOTORWAYS are accident waiting to happen..BUSBY.

Like I said before, get out and at least get yourself to the barrier even if you can’t get yourself over it. If you stay in your vehicle then expect the worst. It doesn’t take much forethought and planning to bung a waterproof overcoat & trousers in the car If there’s bad weather. Even a sit mat or fold up chair if you can’t stand up for long. The idiots are the ones who don’t want to get out because they’ll get cold and wet.

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[bigtwin]

As has been previously pointed out, you can quite easily pull off the carriageway on most A or B roads.

That fact is already reflected in the statistics that identify A/B roads as being more ‘dangerous’ than motorways.

Do most dual-carriageways have space to pull off the carriageway?

Ian

 

[Oldrat]

That fact is already reflected in the statistics that identify A/B roads as being more ‘dangerous’ than motorways.

Do most dual-carriageways have space to pull off the carriageway?

Ian

I would say quite often yes, except when there is a steep bend or drop off.

 

[tonyidle]

N

Like I said before, get out and at least get yourself to the barrier even if you can’t get yourself over it. If you stay in your vehicle then expect the worst. It doesn’t take much forethought and planning to bung a waterproof overcoat & trousers in the car If there’s bad weather. Even a sit mat or fold up chair if you can’t stand up for long. The idiots are the ones who don’t want to get out because they’ll get cold and wet.

I can do nothing about other drivers or about poorly thought out road systems that make no allowance for the elderly, infirm, disabled, those with young children, those with pets, and those with no exit on the nearside. The first few minutes after stopping in a live lane before following drivers are aware of what has happened are arguably the most dangerous. Just as you and your passengers are attempting egress. As for carrying warm clothing try to find something adequate for a Winters night on the higher parts of any of any Northern motorway for any of the vulnerable people mentioned above - for many months a full Arctic suit would be needed for more than 15 to 20 minutes. As for being the safest roads they possible are for the witless, careless or aggressive but maybe not so much for a careful, legal, driver.

 

[bigwood]

Just to add my thoughts about smart motorways and proven case against them.
Following an articulated truck on a smart motorway the brakes on the trailer came on and it slid to a halt in the live lane. Fortunately it was quiet and I was far enough behind to get past. On the way back in the other direction an hour later the truck was still there with Highways Agency vehicles and lots of cones behind it.
The thought of that happening in the dark or when there was heavy traffic is frightening.

 

[busby]

Like I said before, get out and at least get yourself to the barrier even if you can’t get yourself over it. If you stay in your vehicle then expect the worst. It doesn’t take much forethought and planning to bung a waterproof overcoat & trousers in the car If there’s bad weather. Even a sit mat or fold up chair if you can’t stand up for long. The idiots are the ones who don’t want to get out because they’ll get cold and wet.

B
Trouble is you could be hit seconds after your car grinds to a halt..slight lack of concentration by following traffic..using phone or fiddling with their radio and your hit..hopefully not by 44 tonnes of H.G.V. and no matter if your the best driver in the world which many are convinced they are your probably a gonner because there is nothing you can do..BUSBY.

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[bigtwin]

I would say quite often yes, except when there is a steep bend or drop off.

Whether they do, or do not, the fact is that the statistics already reflect that situation.

As for being the safest roads they possible are for the witless, careless or aggressive but maybe not so much for a careful, legal, driver.

The statistics do not differentiate between the two different types of driver that you define. The stats account for all driver types.

Just to add my thoughts about smart motorways and proven case against them.

Is the case proven? It’s a fact that many don’t like them but it isn’t proven that they are less safe than transferring drivers onto the A/B roads that kill more people than motorways do.

Trouble is you could be hit seconds after your car grinds to a halt

And you could be rear-ended while waiting at traffic lights, and you could skid off the road on a bend on gravel that the council hasn’t cleared up, etc.

Ian

 

[cyberyacht]

Breaking down in a live lane shouldn't be as hazardous as it is as there is NO EXCUSE for driving into the back of a stationary vehicle. "You should drive in such a manner that you can stop in the distance that you can see to be clear". We do seem to have difficulty in observing this instruction.

 

[Nigel P]

Even the Dept for Transport acknowledge the issue, this quote from their anniversary review shows almost double the collision rate with stationary vehicles on all lane running compared to conventional motorway!

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/media/uivj2zem/smart-motorways-stocktake-second-year-2022.pdf

Stopped and moving vehicle safety across the SRN, most collisions occur between moving vehicles moving vehicle PIC rates are lowest for ALR motorways, and FWI and KSI rates are lowest on DHS motorways while stopped vehicle collisions remain a very small proportion of all collisions (the proportion ranges from 2.36% for controlled motorways to 2.99% for conventional motorways to 5.26% for ALR motorways), stopped vehicle collision and casualty rates are lowest for conventional and controlled motorways this continues to reflect the summary we included in the first year progress report that the risk of any collisions is low. The risk of an individual experiencing a live lane collision between a moving and a stopped vehicle while still rare, is greater on ALR and DHS motorways, but the risk of a collision involving only moving vehicles is lower

 

[chaser]

One thing I can't understand about these motorways, we went down to Oxford yesterday M6 M5 M40 M42, and in nearly all the way we went on smart stretchs , there is loads of room to extend the safety things but it's barried off, why?

 

[bigtwin]

Even the Dept for Transport acknowledge the issue, this quote from their anniversary review shows almost double the collision rate with stationary vehicles on all lane running compared to conventional motorway!

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/media/uivj2zem/smart-motorways-stocktake-second-year-2022.pdf

Stopped and moving vehicle safety across the SRN, most collisions occur between moving vehicles moving vehicle PIC rates are lowest for ALR motorways, and FWI and KSI rates are lowest on DHS motorways while stopped vehicle collisions remain a very small proportion of all collisions (the proportion ranges from 2.36% for controlled motorways to 2.99% for conventional motorways to 5.26% for ALR motorways), stopped vehicle collision and casualty rates are lowest for conventional and controlled motorways this continues to reflect the summary we included in the first year progress report that the risk of any collisions is low. The risk of an individual experiencing a live lane collision between a moving and a stopped vehicle while still rare, is greater on ALR and DHS motorways, but the risk of a collision involving only moving vehicles is lower

You’re picking out a specific statistic to make a point. While I have not read the whole report, it is clear that their overall conclusion, and this did surprise me, is that smart motorways are THE safest roads in the UK; they conclude that they are SAFER than motorways with a hard shoulder.

The Updated Safety Evidence section that starts on page 39 summarises the situation.

Ian

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[busby]

Whether they do, or do not, the fact is that the statistics already reflect that situation.


The statistics do not differentiate between the two different types of driver that you define. The stats account for all driver types.



Is the case proven? It’s a fact that many don’t like them but it isn’t proven that they are less safe than transferring drivers onto the A/B roads that kill more people than motorways do.



And you could be rear-ended while waiting at traffic lights, and you could skid off the road on a bend on gravel that the council hasn’t cleared up, etc.

Ian

But not by a truck doing 56 mph..BUSBY

Breaking down in a live lane shouldn't be as hazardous as it is as there is NO EXCUSE for driving into the back of a stationary vehicle. "You should drive in such a manner that you can stop in the distance that you can see to be clear". We do seem to have difficulty in observing this instruction.

Shouldn't be but is...Too many distractions..phones..sat navs..radios etc.BUSBY.

 

[bigtwin]

But not by a truck doing 56 mph..BUSBY

You’re assigning greater weight to the truck doing 56mph?

Ian

 

[Nigel P]

You’re picking out a specific statistic to make a point. While I have not read the whole report, it is clear that their overall conclusion, and this did surprise me, is that smart motorways are THE safest roads in the UK; they conclude that they are SAFER than motorways with a hard shoulder.

The Updated Safety Evidence section that starts on page 39 summarises the situation.

Ian

I only highlighted the specific point because it was the original aspect raised by the OP. I am quite ambivalent about smart motorways, mathematically I find them a huge waste of money as they realistically benefit motorists for a couple of commuter periods each day. As others have mentioned driver behaviour is more relevant than having 3, 4 or 5 lanes to play with. As has already been illustrated in some posts there is a tendency for the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade to choose what rules they fancy complying with. In a rules based society that just serves to make it harder for those who choose to comply, removing the element of reasonable assumption about other motorist behaviours in given scenarios. We mostly expect others to stop at red lights allowing those with green lights to proceed accordingly. The main issue with smart motorways is re-programming drivers to remove the concept of the safety net called the hard shoulder; older drivers are statistically more difficult to take on new concepts. Leaving the stationary vehicle issue to one side you would expect good safety outcomes, when traffic is busy the speed limit is reduced to accommodate smoother flow, when it is not busy there is a greater lane separation allowing for greater safety margins. However, all the safety tech in the world will not adequately compensate for the driver who is incompetent.
Driving is a complex skill that is lost on a very large percentage of drivers.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Driving is a complex skill that is lost on a very large percentage of drivers.

And don’t we know it, makes you wonder how some people survive a day

 

[jongood]

Breaking down in a live lane shouldn't be as hazardous as it is as there is NO EXCUSE for driving into the back of a stationary vehicle. "You should drive in such a manner that you can stop in the distance that you can see to be clear". We do seem to have difficulty in observing this instruction.

This is very good theory but sadly does not always reflect reality. If I'm on a motorway I tend to be in a larger vehicle, either Lorry or Motorhome, accordingly I leave myself what I consider to be a safe braking distance. What happens is that this space is steadily invaded by people overtaking and exiting right in front of me, frequently with the brakes hard on( because they ve misjudged it) or joining from an on ramp frequently misjudging their joining speed, not sure what to do so driving alongside until they run out of road ( some of the joining ramps are very short).

I'm sure we ve all seen similar many many times, peoples incompetence or poor judgement leading to situations where they run out of options, add in night time and bad weather driving and this is where the collisions occur. The problem is exacerbated by the solid barriers at the side of nearly all smart motorways. If I'm in the new lane 2 When these problems happen then at least I have a little more margin to avoid these cretins.

chaser I'm in total agreement about the barriers, I really cant see the point of most of them.

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