Section 88 and Europe

[John Russell]

In the next month I would like to drive my motorhome in Europe; Poland, Germany and the Netherlands, then France, Italy, Austria etc in the winter.

Background

• My driving licence (C1 and car) which is on annual medical renewal (T1 diabetes) expired on 24th June
• I returned the renewal form in May
• Since then I am allowed to drive in the UK under 'Section 88' - until medical enquiries deem me fit to continue and I get a new licence, or not.
• On 25th August I passed my Category C practical test
• The examiner couldn't add my pass to my expired photocard licence so asked me to post licence and test certificate to the DVLA which I did
• I have scanned copies of my previous licence and Category C pass
• From the DVLA's website "View your driving licence information":
  • 'Driving status': "Your full driving licence has expired" and
  • 'Vehicles you can drive': "You do not have any current driving entitlement" plus "Unclaimed test pass" "Category C: Passed 25th August 2020 Expires on 25th August 2022"

A call to the Medical Section of the DVLA confirmed:

• I can drive Category C in the UK under Section 88
• Can I drive in the EU? 'Ask the relevant governments'.
• No medical examinations are being booked. As this is down to NHS resources, I don't suppose this will change anytime soon.
• The DVLA's step-by-step approach to asking for their three levels of medical enquiry for Category C (my consultant, a driving specialist consultant from my hospital, a driving specialist consultant from another hospital) took 3 months under normal circumstances
• Category C will be added to my licence only when medical enquiries are completed

I asked for my expired licence back, but was told they destroyed it on receipt.

Does anyone here have any insight into how to approach the issue of lack of a hard copy licence, and evidence of my right to drive, if we go to Europe?

TIA for any advice you can offer.

 

[ceejayt]

Bump...

 

[nicholsong]

It is a pity that your contact with DVLA was by phone and not e-mail.

Are you not covered by any of the six-month extensions for renewal that DVLA granted? If so copy that.

You will not get any UK authority to answer Qs about legal matters abroad.

However, I would take a copy of your post above, together with a copy of your C1 licence that you scanned, a print-out of S. 88. and of your C test pass.

The difficulties of contacting all governments is probably not worth while, especially if they have to answer in writing and may well give a negative answer.

Your chances of being stopped are minimal and often they are not interested in driving licences.

The bigger risk would be involvement in an accident, even if not your fault.

However under the circumstances of the Covid delays it would be a hard-hearted policeman(there is one) who would not accept the above as proof of your right to drive.

I assume the MH you will be taking does not rquire a C licence, which could be more difficult since it is not on the scanned copy of your old licence.

I personally would take the risk armed with all the above.

Geoff

I hope this helps.

 

[John Russell]

Thanks Geoff.

The EU say the 7-month Covid-related licence extension is up to the national licensing authority's implementation; the DVLA told me that the extensions do not apply to medical restrictions.

I imagine that there are many other drivers who find themselves in a similar position due to the lack of medical renewals.

I do need Category C to drive my MH.

As you say, the fallback would be to travel with the relevant paperwork.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Get the applicable International Driving Permit from the Post Office, if you can.

At least you will have something official to produce to the foreign cops.

 

[gus-lopez]

and evidence of my right to drive, if we go to Europe?

You can't drive in eirope without being in possession of a physical in date licence

As you say, the fallback would be to travel with the relevant paperwork.

Worthless.

 

[nicholsong]

You can't drive in eirope without being in possession of a physical in date licence

Worthless.

I would not say the paperwork is 'worthless'

It might not be what is legally required, but it is persuasive that the driver has made the effort to obtain the correct licence but is thwarted by Covid delays, and is not just spinning a yarn. it also proves he has passed the 'C' test, so is deemed fit to drive >7.5t. On the point of the medical being expired the court might need to be convinced that the driver is unfit - do the police want to go that route?

A policeman then has to weigh up whether a court would accept the explanation and dismiss the case, causing him some embarrassment for not accepting the explanation.

I accept that you Gus are probably looking at it from a driver having to deal with the Guardia, rather than more reasonable police forces.

Geoff

Geoff

 

[Phill D]

I would agree that an international driving license is demonstrated as effort.
But you will not get one without your UK license being present during the application.
I looked at this recently.

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[Phill D]

PS....
The international license is only valid for 1 year or the expiry date of the UK license whichever is the soonest.

 

[SandraL]

Just recvd the camping and caravan club magazine, october issue page 68.
Hope the picture is legible, suggests there is an automatic eu extension to licence dates.

 

[nicholsong]

Get the applicable International Driving Permit from the Post Office, if you can.

At least you will have something official to produce to the foreign cops.

I do not wish to contradict Speedy, but now we know you need 'C' to drive your MH it is unlikely that you can get an IDP with that on it, especially since you only have a scan of your old licence and no 'C' on it.

Geoff

 

[Phill D]

You cannot get an international license without your full UK license present copies don't cut it.
So it's a non starter if your license is with the DVLA.

 

[Jev88]

My Mum received a letter about her renewal (Diabetes etc..) and it stated use Section88 if the special doctors note is delaying things.

 

[MaidinDevon]

I enquired about this, on the chat option of DVLA. Unfortunately I lost connection before saving the chat.

I was told that my UK Licence, due for renewal in November would be extended in the UK.

However it will not be accepted in the EU after 31st December.

And I can't renew my IDP without a current UK licence.

So i will have to pay to renew it in November. Apparently online renewal, using your passport is not subject to delay and can be issued in a week.

Hope this helps.

Karen

 

[SpeedyDux]

I do not wish to contradict Speedy, but now we know you need 'C' to drive your MH it is unlikely that you can get an IDP with that on it, especially since you only have a scan of your old licence and no 'C' on it.

Geoff

Hence my qualifying words if you can. I realise that the Post Office might refuse to accept the paperwork if the DL itself is in limbo with DVLA. Worth a try.

The point being that, if you get stopped by a Flic or more likely a Gendarme, they might let you go without further ado, if you can produce a valid IDP. Just a thought - but like you I wouldn't risk touring abroad in the OP's circumstances.

 

[The Wino]

Just recvd the camping and caravan club magazine, october issue page 68.
Hope the picture is legible, suggests there is an automatic eu extension to licence dates.

What they don't appear to have considered is the EU have said that there is an automatic extension to EU driving licences but as we are no longer in the EU does it apply throughout the eu to ours. Even if it does in transition will it from January.
The way I read it the excemption in the UK is for our country only as the DVLA have advised whether other countries have similar arrangements who knows. I think in the worst case scenario it wouldn't be up to someone to prove a driver didn't meet the medical requirements that would be for someone who had a valid license. All they would need is to show there was no license valid at the time and no arrangement in that country to allow expired ones to be used.

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[The Wino]

Hence my qualifying words if you can. I realise that the Post Office might refuse to accept the paperwork if the DL itself is in limbo with DVLA. Worth a try.

The point being that, if you get stopped by a Flic or more likely a Gendarme, they might let you go without further ado, if you can produce a valid IDP. Just a thought - but like you I wouldn't risk touring abroad in the OP's circumstances.

I don't see how the IDP could be issued. How long would it be valid for? The DVLA could still decide that the conditions to issue a new license have not been met there would then be an IDP issued but no UK license not sure how that works.

 

[John Russell]

As said by others, there's no IDP without a current UK driving licence.

The EU proposed automatic extension of driving licences expiring before 31 August I think by 7 months, is sensible however implementation is up to member states.

DVLA won't extend licences whose renewals are covered by Section 88.

S88 requires me to be fit to drive in my opinion and that of my Doctor and it kicks in when the licence expired after I applied to renew.

Unfortunately afaik S88 is inapplicable outside the UK.

So my understanding is that I don't have a licence to drive anything outside the UK for the forseeable future.

 

[Clipgate]

Travel or do business in Europe: Brexit guidance

Find out how new Brexit rules apply to things like travelling, working, studying and doing business with Europe in or with EU countries.

www.gov.uk

Fill in the check list drop down box to see what actions required.
Section 88 is UK valid only to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Clipgate]

Just checked the UK legislation it warns as copied below:
Because the Section 88 provision is in UK legislation, it may not be accepted in other countries. We advise you to check with the relevant licensing authority before you travel. My licence was revoked/refused for medical reasons.

 

[Riverbankannie]

As said by others, there's no IDP without a current UK driving licence.

The EU proposed automatic extension of driving licences expiring before 31 August I think by 7 months, is sensible however implementation is up to member states.

DVLA won't extend licences whose renewals are covered by Section 88.

S88 requires me to be fit to drive in my opinion and that of my Doctor and it kicks in when the licence expired after I applied to renew.

Unfortunately afaik S88 is inapplicable outside the UK.

So my understanding is that I don't have a licence to drive anything outside the UK for the forseeable future.

Yes, that is all correct. It’s a b*****r !
We are going to try and enjoy a UK trip next week but weather and darkevenings will make us long to be in France.

 

[John Russell]

I wonder what non-S88 reasons there are for needing a licence renewal?

Age-related renewals?

Bus and lorry drivers over 45 are included in the extension.

 

[nicholsong]

Deleted

 

[Folkranger]

It is a pity that your contact with DVLA was by phone and not e-mail.

I contacted dvla by phone for c1 confirmation and followed this up with two emails asking for assurances. They answered both and I kept copies. So probably worth doing.

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[bobandjanie]

When we changed our UK licence to a Spanish one, the temporary was only valid in Spain. Bob.