Schaudt EBL 99 - stopped working (1 Viewer)

[iceclimber]

Apologies for the long post ...... I have read numerous posts on the EBL99 problems & sometimes it appears that the EBL99’s fail for no obvious reasons & owners accept it and just get them repaired.

I've owned my 2003 Burstner 660 for 5 years. The van is not used for the period Nov - Feb. I never leave the ECU mains permanently on. I switch the ECU cct breaker on for approx 2 days ever 2 weeks. The batteries are 2 x 115 Ah. (new in March 2016) I have a Victron BMV700 fitted & constantly check state of batteries / charge / discharge current / voltages etc.
The EBL99 was working fine up until Sunday & then I noticed it had stopped ?

• No charge voltage at batteries & the 240v 'mains on’ light at the Burstner control panel not illuminated.
• All the DC circuits / distribution / panel etc …. are working OK.
• Charge from alternator when running the engine was OK.
• I confirmed that there was 240v at the kettle connector at the input to the EBL99.
• Removed the EBL99; opened up box, checked the small glass fuse, which was OK.

Observations:-

1.) Inspection of the EBL cct boards showed no physical signs of ‘burn out’ or failure ? All looks good (except for Block 1 / 2 connectors )
2.) The Block 1 (pin3) Block 2 (pin4) connectors have burnt out pins. I note that this is to do with the -ve connectors for the fridge. The fridge has not been on DC for 4 months. This may be a separate issue due to the large currents to the fridge &/or possible damp / corroded connector ? the rear of the cct board points for these 2 pin connections is also charred brown.

QUESTIONS: I have received ‘expert ‘ comment, that the EBL is indeed knackered & that this is solely due to the 2 x 115Ah batteries connected. The advice is, that the battery load on the EBL99 should not exceed 180 Ah (& this should include the starter battery ) I have read contrary comment to how the starter battery should be considered, one such comment stated that in effect it could be ignored ?

I've emailed Udo Lang, but the response was generic & not really very helpful. I will try again.

I obviously need to get the EBL repaired or renewed, BUT; should I reduce the battery bank size ? what about the starter battery ? should I add the additional LAS Schaudt charger unit ? Are the corroded -ve pins on Block 1 / 2 indicative of overload ? or is this a separate problem ?

 

[DavidG58]

cant help at all I am afraid, but I am seriously impressed with the structure and content of the post, and certainly no need to apologise for the length, well not to me anyway

I will be disappointed if you do not get the answer you need now without many or possibly any supplementary questions

hope it fixes easily

 

[tonyidle]

Large capacity batteries will only stress the charger if they are well discharged when it is first turned on. Once they are charged the current drawn is very small and does not approach the chargers safe limit. The burned pins are due to the heavy current drawn by the fridge. The connector pins are in theory adequate in size for the current drawn by the fridge but the contact area between male & female pins is too small to allow for a less-than-perfect connection (which will occur in time even in a perfectly dry environment due to normal oxidation). Renew the pins (and the connector shells if damage is more than discolouration) and treat all the connectors to a squirt of contact cleaner (disconnect, squirt, reconnect). I'm running two 130Ah hab batteries on my EBL99.

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[RowleyBirkinQC]

Having recently acquired our first EBL equipped German van, also a Burstner, I will watch this thread with some interest. I've little clue about said EBL units or who to seek expert opinion from, but Google says these guys appear to have experience of diagnosing/repairing them - http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-charging-faults.php

 

[Glandwr]

All I can add is that l have 3x125Ah batteries and have had no problems in 6 years. The van was designed with space for 3 large L batteries. Mind you they have never been totally discharged.

Dick

 

[SandraL]

Would agree that those pins are fridge neg supply. Looking at ebl diagram they are internally connected together inside ebl and do nothing else.
So suggest not caused by battery size at all.
I would be replacing pins, or if not possible then connecting the 2 plug pins externally to ebl to provide electrically the same circuit. I would use a plug/socket though.
If you want a second charger it can be connected via the ebl on 2f7 connector( i think). This will mean the original charger will not be on full charge for so long. Ideally you need one with same charge regmime as existing charger.
If you rarely discharge batts AND recharge on mains I would leave charger as is.
I have a second charger connectd to ebl but leave its mains supply disconnected, just as a spare ready but not in use.
Good luck and hope repair goes well.
Did the ebl mounted socket come of easily?
Post is good pointer to look occasionally at ebl blocks to check for overheating pins.

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[iceclimber]

Having recently acquired our first EBL equipped German van, also a Burstner, I will watch this thread with some interest. I've little clue about said EBL units or who to seek expert opinion from, but Google says these guys appear to have experience of diagnosing/repairing them - http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-charging-faults.php

Yep; This is the company I approached first & gave them full information and even more photo's.
Unfortunately ..... they are refusing to sell me a new / refurbed EBL99 as they are of the opinion that 'my set-up' (i.e. 2 x 115A + starter battery) takes the EBL99 way outside its design parameters, so they see it as a major risk to their reputation if they were to repair or supply a new EBL99, so they have refused.

The above replies from SandraL & tonyidle + an email I received from Udo Lang this morning, would all suggest that andncaravanservices opinion is at the extreme end of the risk pendulum ?

 

[SandraL]

Mate n lok
If looking for pins or shells to repair unit try googling above.
Hardest bit is finding pin removal tool at reasonable price. Have heard,but not tried, people cutting up drinks tin and rolling a sleeve. Sure theres been some info on this forum in the past.

 

[JeanLuc]

I too had a problem with a burnt pin on block 1 but mine was the +ve supply to the fridge (which had stopped working on 12V). I returned the EBL99F to Schaudt for a very reasonable repair. It was returned, fully checked and with a supply of spare pins and a replacement plug. Whatever else is wrong, I suggest you need to do this too.
Udo Lang has always been very helpful to me and arranged the repair. My set-up now has 2 x 90 Ah batteries, but previously, I had 2 x 110Ah and never had any charging problems. I have read the A&N warning about battery load, but never, during a lot of email correspondence over several years, has Udo given the same warning. The only warning in the manual refers to a Minimum 55Ah battery bank. Neither is there any reference to including the starter battery since this takes only a trickle charge, not the full IUoU charging program that is supplied to the habitation batteries.

I would ignore A&N and send the EBL direct to Schaudt for repair and checking over - this should resolve both problems. The cost of repair is almost certainly going to be cheaper than having it done in the UK. You can pay Schaudt via PayPal once the work is complete and if you are lucky, the turnaround time is likely to be around two weeks at most. I have used MyHermes for delivery in the past since it is a lot cheaper than UBS which Schaudt will use for the return (they get a heavily discounted trade rate that they will then include in your bill).

Good luck.

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[Minxy]

For postage have a look at Interparcel as the insurance cover works out cheaper through them than going to MyHermes direct.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

I downloaded a 2011 Burstner I Model instruction manual from the interweb for reference purposes before we bought our 2011 Aviano. In true parrot fashion only, being a complete electrical numpty, I find the following references in the vehicle manufacturers document:-

Under section 8 Electrical System:-

Then under section 16 Power Supply:-

Is it the 18A charging current / auxiliary charging unit listed that the company is referring to? Perhaps this is just a restrictive guideline which is well within the EBL's actual capability? But then why list it as such if the EBL manufacturer indicates it to be overly conservative?

I now need to go and check the 2 leisure batteries which came with our van when home from work, I don't recall the rating...

 

[iceclimber]

I have read the A&N warning about battery load, but never, during a lot of email correspondence over several years, has Udo given the same warning. The only warning in the manual refers to a Minimum 55Ah battery bank. Neither is there any reference to including the starter battery since this takes only a trickle charge, not the full IUoU charging program that is supplied to the habitation batteries. I would ignore A&N ..................
Good luck.

Thanks Philip; was hoping you'd chip-in, as noted in numerous posts you have a good grasp on this subject.
Yep, A&N's view of over 'over stressing' components in the charger cct is extreme ! The EBL99 can only give out 18A so it just means that, if the batteries are 'low' (which occasionally they will be) then initially the EBL will operate flat-out and so the batteries will take longer to charge.
If this happened day in / day out ... then perhaps A&N's view is valid BUT with sensible management of the batteries (hence my Victron BMV) there should not really be an issue ?
(Udo has sort of confirmed this ... )

A new very tech'y Question for you: MOV's ? . they deteriorate over time, so surge protection becomes less effective. If I send the EBL back to Schaudt, I was thinking of asking them to renew the MOV ?
(I know that MOV surge protection is very different to the function of the OVP 01 )

http://www.circuitstoday.com/metal-oxide-varistor-mov

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[JeanLuc]

I'm afraid your question about the MOV is way beyond my knowledge so I would ask Udo for advice.
Concerning the overloading issue, and the reference made above by RowleyB, I know that Hymer routinely fitted 2 x 80Ah gel batteries with one EBL99 (that is what mine had when it left the factory). According to A&N, this together with the starter battery would have resulted in overload! The only time, so far as I'm aware, that Hymer fitted an additional LAS1218 module was when they installed 3 habitation batteries as standard, as in the large S820.

One thing I did not make clear in my earlier post is that you need to specify when you send the EBL to Schaudt, that you want them to send it back with spare pins and the MNL blocks. They are very cheap but you don't want to have to pay additional postage if you order them later.

 

[JockandRita]

so they see it as a major risk to their reputation if they were to repair or supply a new EBL99, so they have refused.

Yep, they told me that too, when I was looking to solve a particular problem, and I only have 225 amps of leisure power. In the end I managed to fix it myself, but it wasn't the same problem as yours.

I would ignore A&N and send the EBL direct to Schaudt for repair and checking over - this should resolve both problems.

I would too. However, failing that, there is another "name in the frame", if you want to have a repair in the UK, which came from @funflair. http://www.leisureelectronicrepairs.co.uk/

Good luck,

Jock.

 

[funflair]

Yep, they told me that too, when I was looking to solve a particular problem, and I only have 225 amps of leisure power. In the end I managed to fix it myself, but it wasn't the same problem as yours.


I would too. However, failing that, there is another "name in the frame", if you want to have a repair in the UK, which came from @funflair. http://www.leisureelectronicrepairs.co.uk/

Good luck,

Jock.

Thanks for the credit Jock, but it wasn't me

Good link all the same.

Martin

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[hilldweller]

would all suggest that andncaravanservices opinion is at the extreme end of the risk pendulum ?

They are talking from experience and if they don't want to take the risk, and lose a sale, it wasn't a decision taken lightly.

It is a flawed unit judging from the number of times I've seen problems with it, ours failed. Charger packed up.

Your best bet is return it to Germany, hope they have improved the design and bank on their warranty.

 

[andy63]

Can someone clarify for me how the charger is overloaded...
I thought that with modern chargers that they would just be limited to their max current for as long as it took to bring batteries to voltage before going on to constant voltage and then trickle charge.. the size of the bank not been that important other than the time it took to replace the charge..
Andy

 

[JockandRita]

Thanks for the credit Jock, but it wasn't me

Good link all the same.

Martin

It's a good job I'm not a gambler then Martin, as I had you down as being a "dead cert".

Cheers,

Jock.

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[hilldweller]

I thought that with modern chargers that they would just be limited to their max current
Andy

In theory but the EBL is known to suffer from mains glitches. Maybe when working at max current it is even more likely to die from a glitch.

 

[TheCaller]

My Globecar Campscout is supplied as standard with an EBL99g & a single 95AH habitation battery. However, a second battery is listed as a factory option & the space & wiring is all there. I have a 2nd battery - dealer rather than factory fit because the van was already built & in stock.

While it's true that the dealer is unlikely to have had a clue about any possible need add a supplemental charger when fitting a 2nd battery, there was no suggestion on the options list that ordering a 2nd battery also triggered an upgrade to the charging regime.

I agree with the posts above saying that the starter battery is pretty much an irrelevance. The EBL99 is not the main source of charge for this battery, merely keeping it topped up while on EHU. The maximum current flow to the starter battery is 2A.

If I regularly ran my habitation batteries flat, let my starter battery get flat too, then plugged into EHU, then I would be pushing the EBL99 pretty hard. But I don't. It helps that I have 200W of solar panels on the roof (even in January ).

A&N see the worst picture of any charger - after all, they are only involved when one breaks. I suspect this gives them quite a pessimistic view. The EBL99 is an old design & the trend over the years is to use more & more electrical power. This forum will also have a higher proportion of users who push their systems harder - we don't have so many of the 'drive to site, plug in & don't move for a week' users.

 

[ApuljackElectronics]

Good evening people! I am Paul - Technical Director at Apuljack Engineering. We repair and upgrade EBL and other electronics and I will be happy to advise you all on how the EBL's work (particularly the chargers) so that you can better understand your systems. We are Chartered Electronics Engineers so we will give you information based on the actual circuitry and its function rather than conjecture and hearsay!

To start with the initial problems that Iceclimber mentions. Burned out connectors on these units is very common and we repair a lot of units with this issue. This is usually caused by the contacts being in poor condition through damp or by the female contacts opening up and creating a slightly higher resistance. The usual place for these to burn out is on the fridge connections as the high current draw combined with the higher resistance connections results in excessive power being developed in the contacts rather than it all going to the fridge.

The chargers in these units are also prone to damage but there are lots of rumours around about why this is. There are a few issues that I will shed some light on. There are 2 design flaws that we have discovered in the chargers that cause some components to overheat and then this destroys a large part of the rest of the unit. When we repair these units we also upgrade these parts so that you do not get the issue again and hence why we give a warranty. There are lots of rumours around about how 'vunerable' these are to mains bourne spikes. We can tell you that the front end design of these chargers is the same as almost every other charger. You will note that this unit (along with all others sold in the EU) is CE marked and as part of this testing it will be subjected to spikes and surges that are typically found on the european mains supply. However, we find that many people either use a generator or experience very poor mains supplies when abroad and this can cause premature failure of the chargers because the input supply exceeds the design and levels in the CE marking tests.

With regard to battery capacity connected to an EBL charger. As has already been mentioned, modern charger are current limited and with 'max out' when they reach this. Hence it is not possible to 'short them out' to blow them up. We have a load rig that we use to soak test chargers before we send them out and have practically verified this current limit on the EBL chargers. The general rule of thumb is to only connect a bank of batteries where the capacity in Ah is 10 times the max current output of the charger in question. For the 18A output of the EBL charger this is 180Ah. However, this is more related to the charge profile that protecting the charger. In the case of the EBL charger, it has a fixed timer for the boost charge output voltage of 14.3V irrespective of the current that is being drawn. If the charger is at its current limit of 18A then it may not put enough charge into a large bank at the boost voltage. HOWEVER, it will continue to charge at a much slower rate when it drops to the float charge voltage of 13.8V. In reality though, unless your large battery bank is VERY flat you are unlikely to max out the charger anyway.

I think I have written enough for now so over to you guys for questions!

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[JeanLuc]

Just had a look at your website Apuljack. Definitely one I shall note for possible future EBL repair work. Thanks

 

[iceclimber]

Already Noted ....... i'll give you a call tomorrow.

Question: Paul, I see you 'joined' today ...... is that a coincidence or have you been advised by someone (in a positive way) that there appears to be EBL darkness discussed on this forum ?

 

[ApuljackElectronics]

One of my colleagues found the post and advised me of it. We spend a lot of time advising dealers and mobile engineers about how to diagnose problems with EBL's either on the phone, email or other forums so it seemed logical to join this one to help you guys too! The EBL units have some unusual features and this often confuses engineers who are used to other types of system. We have repaired and analysed so many in our labs that our engineering team are very experienced with them. Does that help answer the question!?

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[iceclimber]

Yep absolutely .... thx. Will call later today.

A Question I would really like you to answer is this:

MOV's ? they deteriorate over time, so surge protection becomes less effective. If I send the EBL back for repair, I was thinking of asking that the MOV on the mains input circuitry is replaced with a new one ?
(I know that MOV surge protection is very different to the function of the OVP 01 module)

http://www.circuitstoday.com/metal-oxide-varistor-mov

 

[iceclimber]

OK, all is now fixed. I have a repaired & upgraded EBL 99 unit and I have refitted into the van. ( ..... am not sure & I don't actually need to know exactly what was upgraded ?)
The repair was done by Apuljack Engineering at a fixed price and the unit was turned round in just over 1 week. I am very pleased with the helpful service I received and the advise I was given by Apuljack. ( I also received new connector blocks and pins for the burnt out connectors on blocks 1 & 2)

NOW ..... I have an admission to make. I was quite dismissive of A&N caravan services stating that they were very risk adverse and it is true to say I was very disappointed by their responses to my requests for possible repair / or refurbished unit, for what I considered to be a fairly common problem ? So, no business went their way, ...... this was at their request !
HOWEVER, they did send me a very informative link to an article on battery charging which I found very useful, and it was this article that convinced me that with 2 x 115 Ahr leisure batteries, I should really have a 2nd charger linked into the EBL99 for when higher charge currents were required due to low battery conditions. (I still believe that such conditions will be an extremely infrequent event ....)
This is the link ........
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-charger-work.php

The 2nd charger I selected is a charger designed & sold by Apuljack Engineering. It is a 3 stage charger with an 18 amp rating. It is a more intelligent charger than the EBL99 and I have connected it into Block 7 of the EBL99. This is the unit .......


I have also installed a surge arrestor block which both chargers are now plugged into. The surge arrestor is an APC unit with a 2000 Joule capacity for 'surge arresting'. (from Amazon) (this is very big ! lots of surge arrestor sockets have only a few hundred Joules.) (There is also a single socket with a 906 Joule rating)

Here is the EBL99 and the new 2nd charger unit ....

and this is where the EBL99 had to be refitted ....... (not a nice job messing about in there )

 

[Ty Tower]

Often when something like this happens the unit is suitable for the amps at first then a little corrosion sets in at the plug connections . Corrosion causes resistance and resistance causes heat so eventually the heat becomes too great.
Clean and lubricate the plugs and terminals every 5 years or so and you will not have the problems.

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[mitzimad]

i cant reccomend aplejack enough they even give follow up advice free by phone and have talked me through the workings and faultfinding a couple of times sine i had mine refurbed absolutely superb service

 

[Mike800966]

They also gave me good telephone advice when a friend wanted me to fit additional controls for hi solar installation, they said leave it alone- the EBL99 already does that!
Mike

 

[Lenny HB]

4 year old thread guys.

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