Running weights

[Patblox]

you sent

When we bought our new motorhome in June we were told the maximum payload of 390 kgs did not include 2 passengers nor 80% fuel load. Is this true? Can I exceed the MTPLM of 3500 kgs if I am carrying 2 people? In other words is the 3500 kgs limit measured with or without passengers and minimum fuel?

 

[Bobby-gg]

Hi, and welcome
unless it's plated higher than 3500kg, then that's your maximum weight, with everything included

 

[Spriddler]

When we bought our new motorhome in June we were told the maximum payload of 390 kgs did not include 2 passengers nor 80% fuel load. Is this true?

Yes. Neither will it include some options, e.g. a wind-out awning, extra gas bottle, tow bar...........
It would help if you gave the exact year and model of your 'C' class.

 

[tonyidle]

The 3500 limit is absolute. It is on the road with everything loaded: driver, passengers, fuel, water, food, everything. There is no additional allowance for anything. 390kg payload is almost impossible. The only way to be certain that you're within the 3500 limit is to visit a weighbridge in holiday trim with everything and everyone loaded. Obtain seperate weighbridge results for each axle as axle weights are equally important.

 

[cmcardle75]

Payload is just a marketing term.

If your vehicle is plated for 3500kg, that is simply the maximum it is allowed to weigh. If you took it to a weighbridge and it weighed more, it is against the law. Additionally, there will be limits for axles. If either of these are exceeded, you are also breaking the law.

The law doesn't care if the weight comes from the base metal, diesel, water overoptimistic weights from the converter, people, luggage or an excess of cake. They'll just weigh it and procesute if the total is too much.

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[Patblox]

Thanks for replies. I just found this on the Out and About Live forum - which is still somewhat confusing but I guess the only answer is to play it safe.
"Don’t forget to allow for the weight of passengers, water (some manufacturers allow this in their calculations and some don’t), fuel, spare gas bottles, etc, which are all easy items to overlook."

 

[Lenny HB]

The MIRO (mass in running order) normally includes a driver at 75kg, 90% fuel, 20Lt water & 11kg aluminium gas bottle but not all manufacturers stick to it.
If the payload is 390kg after the MIRO it will just a about be useable at 3500 kg providing hardly any extras have been fitted.
It would be wise to look at uprating.

 

[Blue Knight]

Which motorhome did you buy and what chassis is it built on - we'll be able to give you better advice if we know the model.

All the best,

Andrew

 

[tonka]

Thanks for replies. I just found this on the Out and About Live forum - which is still somewhat confusing but I guess the only answer is to play it safe.
"Don’t forget to allow for the weight of passengers, water (some manufacturers allow this in their calculations and some don’t), fuel, spare gas bottles, etc, which are all easy items to overlook."

Be honest dont think i have EVER seen a calculation that allows passengers. Driver (75kg) and fuel is generally always allowed for.
Manufacturers seem to make up their own figures when they quote MIRO (Mass is running order). My previous van was a 2012 Autotrail. Payload was quoted after inclusion of driver, fuel, gas bottle AND water which was 100ltr = 100kg ish.. On later models they then went on to quote the same MIRO but water NOT included.

Good move doing the research, always worth getting a new van weighed as well. If its a used van you never know what the past owners have added to affect (effect ?? ) the weight.

 

[Patblox]

Hi
Thanks again for responses. The van is a Benimar Tessoro 486, 21 reg, built on a Ford Transit chassis with auto gearbox.
There seem to be so many figures used - MTPLM, MAM, MIRO - all seems confusing!

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[tonyidle]

Hi
Thanks again for responses. The van is a Benimar Tessoro 486, 21 reg, built on a Ford Transit chassis with auto gearbox.
There seem to be so many figures used - MTPLM, MAM, MIRO - all seems confusing!

There are and it is but the only important one is weight (and axle weights) on the road and in use.

 

[pappajohn]

There will be hundreds upon hundreds of owners who are oblivious to payload law and legal weights but never get stopped.... Do you feel lucky?

 

[Blue Knight]

Hi
Thanks again for responses. The van is a Benimar Tessoro 486, 21 reg, built on a Ford Transit chassis with auto gearbox.
There seem to be so many figures used - MTPLM, MAM, MIRO - all seems confusing!

Thanks for the details.

1. Firstly, you only have a basic payload of 351kg and not the 390kg quoted since the optional auto gearbox weighs 39kg and that needs to be removed from the brochure figure of 390kg.

2. The MIRO (initial weight calculation of the van) does not include any water whatsoever so any water used, including the basic levels in your boiler system, needs to be deducted from your 351kg @ 1kg per liter.

3. There is an EU directive which allows for the vans weight to be +/- 5% from the advertised weight so assume the van to be a few kg over the brochure weight.

4. Some of the extra bits in the van will not be included in the initial weight figures.....

.......so if we consider the above points then I reckon your realtime payload for everything (assuming you do not max-out the axle tolerances) is about 230-250kg, excluding water, passengers, bikes, larger or multiple gas bottles, extra batteries, TV, food, clothes, pets, toothpaste, etc.

The figure of 230-250kg also assumes the driver to be 75kg dressed so any fatter and that comes off the payload too.

All the best,

Andrew

 

[Badknee]

you sent

When we bought our new motorhome in June we were told the maximum payload of 390 kgs did not include 2 passengers nor 80% fuel load. Is this true? Can I exceed the MTPLM of 3500 kgs if I am carrying 2 people? In other words is the 3500 kgs limit measured with or without passengers and minimum fuel?

Too late for you now but as part of the deal when we bought ours was to have it weighed completely empty. Nothing in it at all. From this I was able to work out the payload = persons, fuel, water, gas and all personal items. We had 1000kgs then I up plated it to 5250kgs to make the payload available 1650kg
From this starting point I could safely start customising it with extra batteries, solar, onboard gas tank yadda yadda. I weighed it a further four times to check after every major item went into it.
The company I bought it from BCS Manchester in 18yrs had never been asked this but thought it was a brilliant idea. He also said he had no idea what a single vehicle out of the hundred or so he had for sale weighed as they were all used so previously there owners could have added weight.
Sorry right now you max out @3500kgs fully loaded.

 

[Jonno1103]

you sent

When we bought our new motorhome in June we were told the maximum payload of 390 kgs did not include 2 passengers nor 80% fuel load. Is this true? Can I exceed the MTPLM of 3500 kgs if I am carrying 2 people? In other words is the 3500 kgs limit measured with or without passengers and minimum fuel?

You CANNOT exceed 3500kg regardless.

What does your V5c say... any mass in service figure?

The 486 is built specifically for the U.K. market, there's no Euro equivalent like there are with other models in the Benimar ranges but the closest, the 483 (same layout), is 2912kg but that's without an oven, or auto box. The rest of the Euro specification is the same.

Overall I'd be surprised if your Tessoro weighs 3110kg. The auto box weighs 15kg and the oven weighs 21.5kg add that to the Euro equivalent and you're looking at 2949kg. No mass in service figure then get it on a weighbridge with just you a full fuel tanks and a gas bottle.

Honestly though? You can't do 4 people with such a payload - you'd struggle with 550kg if that's what it turns out to be. If you're thinking of towing, when the Ford Benimar's are fitted with an auto box they have a reduced towing capacity down to 750kg from 1500kg regardless of engine. Dunno why, none of the other Ford chassis based moho's with a towing capacity have the same restriction.

U.K. Benni payloads are calculated with all water tanks empty, 90% fuel (63 litres), 75kg for the driver and a 13kg gas bottle.

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[GibAvon]

I wondered whether the attached PDF files may help.

We have been looking at buying a panel van conversion to replace our motorhome.

We have been using the configuration tool provided on the Bürtner website (we have also looked at other manufacturers), and have used their weight data and definitions to calculate our likely loads. The results are shown in the attached table. A comparison with our motorhome is included on the RHS column. The “stuff” listed is what we have been carrying around in our motorhome … A separate sheet includes the definitions provided by Bürstner, and may be of some use.

What is interesting is that the PVC has a higher unladen weight than the motorhome.

Hope this is of use.

Les

 

[tonyidle]

Calculations are very useful (essential maybe) at the planning stage. But the OP has already bought the van and if that is the case the most accurate way to determine the next step is to take it to a weighbridge in "holiday" trim. If, as it appears, payload is tight then only equip it with essentials. All of them.

 

[deleted79651]

Too late for you now but as part of the deal when we bought ours was to have it weighed completely empty. Nothing in it at all. From this I was able to work out the payload = persons, fuel, water, gas and all personal items. We had 1000kgs then I up plated it to 5250kgs to make the payload available 1650kg
From this starting point I could safely start customising it with extra batteries, solar, onboard gas tank yadda yadda. I weighed it a further four times to check after every major item went into it.
The company I bought it from BCS Manchester in 18yrs had never been asked this but thought it was a brilliant idea. He also said he had no idea what a single vehicle out of the hundred or so he had for sale weighed as they were all used so previously there owners could have added weight.
Sorry right now you max out @3500kgs fully loaded.

We had Brunhilde weighed by the Dealer as a condition of purchase; Each wheel individually then added front pair and rear pair to get respective axle weights. Van had 'about 1/4 tank diesel' so docked 19kg off the Dealer weight, to give a 706kg payload [after 13kg weight reduction for Lithium Battery but 19kg adition for LPG Refillable system] and then weighed everything that went in. Allowing for full diesel and water tanks + full gas bottles, we have a margin of just shy of 101kg at 3500kg limit. In practice, we have begun travelling with no more than 30kg water, because Brunhilde struggles to maintain speed on those long ascents and a 75kg+ weight reduction does make a difference to the point at which she begins to wheeze

Steve

 

[mitzimad]

i would guess if you fill it with water and four people you will be on the limit

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

We were early for the Oban ferry a couple of weeks ago, but the kiosk operative let me turn around on the dockside, whilst spinning around I noticed the weighbridge sitting empty, I motioned would it be all right to get a figure, which he agreed, and I got a figure of 3600 fully trip ready in total, luckily I had the 3700kg chassis uplift, but still uncomfortably close , but might need to revisit the chassis upgrade people, or put the bus a strict diet.
Mike

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[Jonno1103]

Thanks for the details.

1. Firstly, you only have a basic payload of 351kg and not the 390kg quoted since the optional auto gearbox weighs 39kg and that needs to be removed from the brochure figure of 390kg.

2. The MIRO (initial weight calculation of the van) does not include any water whatsoever so any water used, including the basic levels in your boiler system, needs to be deducted from your 351kg @ 1kg per liter.

3. There is an EU directive which allows for the vans weight to be +/- 5% from the advertised weight so assume the van to be a few kg over the brochure weight.

4. Some of the extra bits in the van will not be included in the initial weight figures.....

.......so if we consider the above points then I reckon your realtime payload for everything (assuming you do not max-out the axle tolerances) is about 230-250kg, excluding water, passengers, bikes, larger or multiple gas bottles, extra batteries, TV, food, clothes, pets, toothpaste, etc.

The figure of 230-250kg also assumes the driver to be 75kg dressed so any fatter and that comes off the payload too.

All the best,

Andrew

Andrew the Ford 6 speed auto weighs an extra 15kg, nowhere near an extra 40kg.

Mass in service is the definitive weight of the individual vehicle as it leaves the factory and they're 99% accurate, alas mainland European built motorhomes don't get this figure making it a very murky experience particularly as everything even down to window blinds in some cases is an advertised payload addition and again in many cases the end product you desire has a very poor payload and the price has gone into orbit.

The U.K. Tessie's are slightly different being specced for this country, their weights are reflective of the 'extras'. In Benimar's case it's simply the Triplex oven.

Ultimately though the bottom line is that no 6m+ C Class motorhome rated at 3500kg is realistic in order to carry four and their personal stuff, some of them don't even have enough for two.

 

[Blue Knight]

Andrew the Ford 6 speed auto weighs an extra 15kg, nowhere near an extra 40kg.

Just reading the specs from Marquis for the 486 They seem to have everything else correct as per the Benimar brochure.

 

[Jonno1103]

Just reading the specs from Marquis for the 486 They seem to have everything else correct as per the Benimar brochure.

View attachment 539625

Bizarre, they're not that heavy. The standard 6 speed manual weighs 37kg and the auto box on a pallet weighs just on 58kg, what's a pallet, about 4 or 5kg? The reduction in trailer weight is weird as well. I had a pint and a long chat with one of the techs at Auto Trail just as the F Lines were launched and he said the auto box doesn't effect their towing weights, it remains at 1000kg plus the auto box increases the torque on the 130ps to 385Nm.

I'd be interested to know what weight the Benimar is on the rear axle to begin with, some of them have quite the overhang. Not much info in the literature is there? Not much better than a leaflet.

I'm, looking at the Auto Trail 2022 price list now which gives weights...

 

[Jonno1103]

Just reading the specs from Marquis for the 486 They seem to have everything else correct as per the Benimar brochure.

Lux pack and Drivers pack adds 30kg, auto box 15kg, so 45kg all in all to match the Benni spec.

The factory fitted witter tow bar is 30kg with the already mentioned 1000kg trailer.

We had both packs and the auto box fitted to ours, advertised weight was 3000kg with the usual driver, 90% fuel etc... ours weighed 2868kg without gas bottles so even if we added the dropdown bed at 50kg, the dinette at 25kg and the towbar we'd still be under 3000kg.

 

[62272]

Easy way for the OP to find out is look up local vehicle weighbridges and take your van there, loaded as though you will want to travel. The weighbridge will charge about £5-10 per weight, and give you a printed certificate of weight. If they are authorised by the Trading Standards the weights will be within legal tolerances. And in any event the plates will be more accurate than the DOT dynamic weight analysers. Try the first axle first, then the whole vehicle (the difference will be the rear axle). Check the results against your maximums on your manufacturer’s or in your case coach builder‘s authorised GVW plates (axle 1 = front axle 2 = rear).

If you are over you risk being prosecuted. Generally the practice use to be <5% over = a warning, over 5% = a ticket, over 10% = reported for summons. But practices may have changed. Overweight will affect vehicle handling and may affect insurance cover if you have an accident and they become aware.

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[Blue Knight]

Lux pack and Drivers pack adds 30kg, auto box 15kg, so 45kg all in all to match the Benni spec.

The factory fitted witter tow bar is 30kg with the already mentioned 1000kg trailer.

We had both packs and the auto box fitted to ours, advertised weight was 3000kg with the usual driver, 90% fuel etc... ours weighed 2868kg without gas bottles so even if we added the dropdown bed at 50kg, the dinette at 25kg and the towbar we'd still be under 3000kg.

If I refer to the latest Benimar brochure for the Ford-specific chassis then Benimar itself quotes 75kg for the addition of a towbar.

What most of your figures seem to refer to is the Autotrail/Trigano weight calculator which in all honesty has never had the best reputation for accuracy. If we use the last version of AT's weight calculator as an example then Autotrail didn't even subtract any kg from the calculator for when the different engines, autobox and extra seating layouts were selected.

On the other topic of Ford gearboxes then the likes of CommercialFleet.org even use the 53kg figure as a reduction in payload once the Ford box is fitted so that adds even more confusion.

Either way it would be in the best interests of the OP if he got the van weighed.

 

[Blue Knight]

The reduction in trailer weight is weird as well. I had a pint and a long chat with one of the techs at Auto Trail just as the F Lines were launched and he said the auto box doesn't effect their towing weights, it remains at 1000kg plus the auto box increases the torque on the 130ps to 385Nm.

That's an interesting point for the Autotrail-Ford rig since the Benimar-Ford chassis has a max trailer weight of 750kg for an auto as per its current techy brochure.

 

[Jamesh]

That's an interesting point for the Autotrail-Ford rig since the Benimar-Ford chassis has a max trailer weight of 750kg for an auto as per its current techy brochure.

Interestingly a 750kg unbraked trailer might put more of a load on a chassis than a 1000kg braked trailer?

Cheers James

 

[Blue Knight]

Interestingly a 745kg unbraked trailer might put more of a load on a chassis than a 1000kg braked trailer?

Cheers James

The whole thing is bizarre until we sit back and realise that we're dealing with motorhome converters and not car manufacturers; i.e. anything seems to go in the world of motorhoming

 

[Jonno1103]

If I refer to the latest Benimar brochure for the Ford-specific chassis then Benimar itself quotes 75kg for the addition of a towbar.

What most of your figures seem to refer to is the Autotrail/Trigano weight calculator which in all honesty has never had the best reputation for accuracy. If we use the last version of AT's weight calculator as an example then Autotrail didn't even subtract any kg from the calculator for when the different engines, autobox and extra seating layouts were selected.

On the other topic of Ford gearboxes then the likes of CommercialFleet.org even use the 53kg figure as a reduction in payload once the Ford box is fitted so that adds even more confusion.

Either way it would be in the best interests of the OP if he got the van weighed.

With Benimar it's the cantilever effect due to the overhang. Adding a tow ball bike carrier has a greater effect than having a trailer. The body of the Tessoro is heavier due to the wood in it too. After a bit of a mooch, Benimar build on the L2 upto 7m & L3 skeletal chassis on anything over.

Bailey the L3, Chausson & Challenger L3 & L4, Roller Team L3 & L4, Auto Trail L2 & L4, they've just introduced the L3 for the 2022 new model, the F68. For me Benimar's use of the L2 on a nigh on 7m van is the difference.

The AT/Trigano calculator won't deduct anything for the engine upgrade to 170ps as there's no difference unlike the pre Multijet II Fiats which had bigger turbo's fitted to the 150's & 180's when upgrading from 130ps, they weren't just a simple case of remapping.

The calculator does deduct from the payload for the towbar 30kg, auto box 15kg, dropdown bed 50kg & dinette 25kg. If your limited it won't allow you to select a dinette without a chassis up plating on their Fiat based motorhomes.

The 53kg illustrated by Ford Commercial is the full weight of the gearbox which is approx. 15kg heaver than the manual which 38ish kg.

Totally agree... the OP needs to get it on a weighbridge.