Problem with gas-regulator

[Eggs]

Last night I started having problems with my Malaga3e gas heater, it was running fine but cut out before it reached temperature, it relit but cut out soon after, so I tried the gas hobs, same problem, very small flame then nothing at all. I'm using propane, the bottle was changed on 27/12/18 and the regulator was new about three months ago. Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[Landy Andy]

I struggle to see how it can not be a problem with either lack of gas, (easily checked) or faulty regulator, which is harder to test.

 

[peterc10]

Suspect you have either run out of gas (dealer may have accidentally given you an exchanged bottle??) or your new regulator is faulty.

 

[Eggs]

Suspect you have either run out of gas (dealer may have accidentally given you an exchanged bottle??) or your new regulator is faulty.

I'm pretty sure it must be the regulator, I'm using 47kg bottles and I've just checked it, it's definitely full.

 

[Landy Andy]

I’m assuming it’s not into minus temps where you are?

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[Eggs]

I’m assuming it’s not into minus temps where you are?

Nothing to write home about, there was a light frost on my work van window this morning, but nothing more. Looking at your location I'm not a million miles away from you in Suffolk

 

[Landy Andy]

That’s what I thought, but best to ask, as gas can be problematic during very cold periods.

 

[mfw]

Is you regulator higher than gas bottle take-off and is your flexible pipe from regulator in good condition

 

[Eggs]

Is you regulator higher than gas bottle take-off and is your flexible pipe from regulator in good condition

I'm not using the van regulator I'm using one that screws onto the bottle as I'm using big bottles that won't fit in the locker. I've checked the hose this morning, it all seems good with no leaks found.

 

[two]

Just a possibility (cylinder over-filled). Try venting some gas to air. There may not be a large enough surface of air for the liquid to evaporate. Never had that with exchange bottles, though.
If the failure has occurred just after using a fresh bottle, I wouldn't exclude a bottle-related problem.

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[mfw]

I'm not using the van regulator I'm using one that screws onto the bottle as I'm using big bottles that won't fit in the locker. I've checked the hose this morning, it all seems good with no leaks found.

Try going back on the vans independant supply if it still plays up you will probably have blockage within gas pipe somewhere

 

[2657]

Back to basics, start at bottle and try venting to air, regulator on and try again, connect pipe repeat, if all OK then problem in van pipework, be careful

 

[Eggs]

Try going back on the vans independant supply if it still plays up you will probably have blockage within gas pipe somewhere

I'll go to get one of my onboard bottles filled, (they are both empty). Strange thing is everything is working again now. I wonder if the regulator did freeze?

 

[2657]

Strange thing is everything is working again now. I wonder if the regulator did freeze?

Aaah!!!..........more than likely, what's the temp now?

Is the gas supplier reliable ie is it possible that the bottle contains butane and not propane?

 

[Eggs]

Aaah!!!..........more than likely, what's the temp now?

Is the gas supplier reliable ie is it possible that the bottle contains butane and not propane?

Sorry about the delay I went and sat a digital thermometer on the bottle, it's 6.2 degrees.

I always get my gas from the same place so I can only presume it's propane.

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[2657]

Sounds like a temperature related problem but cannot suggest a remedy unfortunately, could be a faulty regulator or perhaps water has got into it and frozen, the vaporisation of the gas in the regulator will cause the temp to drop and if there is water in it that could freeze and stop the regulator working.

 

[Eggs]

Sounds like a temperature related problem but cannot suggest a remedy unfortunately, could be a faulty regulator or perhaps water has got into it and frozen, the vaporisation of the gas in the regulator will cause the temp to drop and if there is water in it that could freeze and stop the regulator working.

I think you could be right the temperature is still falling 4.2 degrees now.

I'll get a new regulator anyway but will have to find a way to lag the regulator if it happens again.

 

[chesterfield hooligan]

Try throwing a coat over the gas bottle and regulator to keep the chill of it.

 

[Pausim]

Try throwing a coat over the gas bottle and regulator to keep the chill of it.

Doesn’t work, the bottle gets colder than the outside temperature because of the latent heat needed to vaporise the gas. Not unusual to see frost forming on propane cylinders used for whole house heating or commercial kitchens. I think it is the same principle as a compressor fridge.

 

[Allanm]

I’m assuming the bottle is standing upright?

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[Eggs]

I’m assuming the bottle is standing upright?

Yes, the bottle is upright.

 

[Eggs]

Doesn’t work, the bottle gets colder than the outside temperature because of the latent heat needed to vaporise the gas. Not unusual to see frost forming on propane cylinders used for whole house heating or commercial kitchens. I think it is the same principle as a compressor fridge.

Are you saying lagging the regulator won't work?

 

[Pausim]

Are you saying lagging the regulator won't work?

Not really sure that lagging the regulator matters one way or the other but lagging the cylinder could reduce performance.

Propane boils at -44C but it stays in liquid form because of the pressure in the cylinder. When the gas tap is turned on the pressure reduces and the liquid gas boils to produce the gas vapour we use. When the gas tap is turned off pressure increases and it stops boiling. However the boiling process uses heat energy, which is taken from the air outside the bottle. If you lag the bottle this prevents the heat from the air getting to the cylinder so it starts to cool down, which doesn’t help the boiling process.

I have to admit that I have no practical experience of this causing a problem but the theoreticl science suggests that lagging a cylinder is the wrong thing to do. It is a similar reason that is given for aluminium cylinders performing better than steel ones in high demand conditions, the heat can transfer into the bottle quicker.

 

[2657]

I think it more than likely that water has got into the regulator and frozen, if the regulator is exposed then some sort of cover will help but not to completely seal or insulate it.

 

[Bobby22]

I think it more than likely that water has got into the regulator and frozen, if the regulator is exposed then some sort of cover will help but not to completely seal or insulate it.

Doesn't condensate build up in hoses if they are not fitted properly.......easily iced up in these temps.
The hoses should be able to return condensate back to the cylinder.

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[Pausim]

Doesn't condensate build up in hoses if they are not fitted properly.......easily iced up in these temps.
The hoses should be able to return condensate back to the cylinder.

The condensate should not be water, I believe it is an oily substance but still better if it drains back into the cylinder. Not likely to be a problem in this case with a cylinder top regulator.

 

[Eggs]

I think it more than likely that water has got into the regulator and frozen, if the regulator is exposed then some sort of cover will help but not to completely seal or insulate it.

This seems to have been the case, I took the regulator off earlier and gently warmed it in front of an electric heater, plenty of water/liquid came out of it. I've put it back on and it's been fine since, I've got a spare today so if it plays up later I'll swap it out. I'll fashion some sort of cover for it tomorrow.

 

[mitzimad]

water can get in the vent hole and freeze or jam above the diaphram

 

[Basildog]

This seems to have been the case, I took the regulator off earlier and gently warmed it in front of an electric heater, plenty of water/liquid came out of it. I've put it back on and it's been fine since, I've got a spare today so if it plays up later I'll swap it out. I'll fashion some sort of cover for it tomorrow.

The regulator really does need to be kept dry .

 

[autorouter]

Not really sure that lagging the regulator matters one way or the other

Lagging the regulator in an attempt to stop it freezing is not a good idea. Covering it to keep it dry is worth doing.

Lagging stops heat transfer both inwards and outwards. Water pipes surrounded by air below 0 degrees C need to be lagged to prevent warmth flowing out into the air making the water freeze.

A regulator gets cold due to the gas expanding and cooling inside the regulator. It needs contact with the air around it to bring it back up to normal temperature. If you lag it to keep the air away, it will just get colder and colder.

In normal use, it will be a few degrees colder than the surrounding air. If the surrounding air is say 2 degrees, the regulator will be below zero, so any water on it will freeze. A cover over the top will stop it getting wet from rain. It can also get wet from condensation, although the cover will help to some extent.