Problem charging lithium

[Bore1]

Hi guys.
I have tried reading on forums to solve this, but now my head is boiling over. I hope you can help me with this.

My setup is a La strada campervan with CBE ds300 electrical
(I have not installed b2b charger. I will fix this first)

I have changed my leasure battery to lithium, and i see that it won't charge from alternator.
Bear in mind that the old lead battery was empty, so the ptoblem could have startet before i changed it. I did not check it because i thougt it never cgarged up because of short drives.

I measure 13.7V on startbattery when engine running. But only 13.12 on leasure(lithium) and both B1 and B2 on the ds300. After an hour with engine on, the alternator charging lamp on the CBE display turns off, and now i have 13.7 on B1 and 13.12 on B2.
It works fine when i charge with Cb516 230V charger.

I hope someone here can help me

 

[funflair]

Hi

The 230v charger will be connected directly to the Lithiums so will see these and charge properly, my guess is that the problem charging from the alternator is that it is seeing the battery voltage and charging according to that, I have read a few times that a lithium set up needs B2B to work properly.

After all that though what makes you say the lithium is not charging ? do you have a battery monitor telling you the capacity and state of charge 13.7v on the starter battery will soon drop to around 12.7v but the lithium voltage should stay where it is although voltage on lithium is no indication of its charge level until you get right to the bottom end where it drops off.

Martin

 

[Terry]

Hi guys.
I have tried reading on forums to solve this, but now my head is boiling over. I hope you can help me with this.

My setup is a La strada campervan with CBE ds300 electrical
(I have not installed b2b charger. I will fix this first)

I have changed my leasure battery to lithium, and i see that it won't charge from alternator.
Bear in mind that the old lead battery was empty, so the ptoblem could have startet before i changed it. I did not check it because i thougt it never cgarged up because of short drives.

I measure 13.7V on startbattery when engine running. But only 13.12 on leasure(lithium) and both B1 and B2 on the ds300. After an hour with engine on, the alternator charging lamp on the CBE display turns off, and now i have 13.7 on B1 and 13.12 on B2.
It works fine when i charge with Cb516 230V charger.

I hope someone here can help me

There will be experts on soon, but 12.7 is a fully charged battery and 13.7 ish is what to expect while engine is running so 13.12 must be a typo or fully charged What are readings a hour or two after stopping engine/ charging ?

 

[andy63]

Hi..from what you are saying I would say that the split charging relay..whether it be included in the ds300 board or in the form of an external relay as in some cbe set ups isnt connecting the start and leisure battery..
If it was the alternator voltage would be mirrored on the leisure battery..ie 13.7v on both banks.. 13.12v issimply the lithium battery voltage with no charging source connected..
If the indicator on the control panel is showing they are connected the ods are on the main fuse has gone..
That could be close to battery or in the external relay box if your system uses that..
Andy

 

[Bore1]

I have only measured with a voltmeter. The startbattery ofcourse drops after engine is off. I think it is strange i can't read 13.7 on B2 also. The lithium is way from fully charged at 13.12 if my understanding is correct. I read 13.7 on both batterys when 230v charger runs

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Bore1]

Hi..from what you are saying I would say that the split charging relay..whether it be included in the ds300 board or in the form of an external relay as in some cbe set ups isnt connecting the start and leisure battery..
If it was the alternator voltage would be mirrored on the leisure battery..ie 13.7v on both banks.. 13.12v issimply the lithium battery voltage with no charging source connected..
If the indicator on the control panel is showing they are connected the ods are on the main fuse has gone..
That could be close to battery or in the external relay box if your system uses that..
Andy

Should the wire from + on startbattery to B1 be live if no fuses are blown? If it should i could check with my instrument

 

[andy63]

Should the wire from + on startbattery to B1 be live if no fuses are blown? If it should i could check with my instrument

I would say yes it should show start battery voltage on that connection..if the fuse has gone obviously it won't....
I have the external relays so don't have a B1 connection present on the ds300 board..so not quite the same set up..
Andy

 

[andy63]

. I read 13.7 on both batterys when 230v charger runs

Its normal enough for the start battery charging voltage to lag the leisure charging voltage by up to .5v or so..when on mains charger..
Andy

 

[funflair]

If nothing else you are going to need a battery monitor as you can not tell anything about remaining capacity from the lithium voltage as it is basically linear all the way to flat OK you know when it's flat as

 

[funflair]

May be worth switching something on so that the lithium voltage drops a bit and then starting up and see if the Voltage changes at all, if not go back to what Andy says about a fuse.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[andy63]

May be worth switching something on so that the lithium voltage drops a bit and then starting up and see if the Voltage changes at all, if not go back to what Andy says about a fuse.

Hi Martin.. ive mentioned that with the engine running that the leisure battery should mirror near as dam it the start battery/alternator voltage and it doesn't by what has been said.. id be surprised if loading the leisure side made any difference to that..
Its got to be a relay fault or a fuse gone..I think
Only part i dont follow is the indicator light on the control panel dropping out after an hour..dont get that..
Andy

 

[funflair]

Hi Martin.. ive mentioned that with the engine running that the leisure battery should mirror near as dam it the start battery/alternator voltage and it doesn't by what has been said.. id be surprised if loading the leisure side made any difference to that..
Its got to be a relay fault or a fuse gone..I think
Only part i dont follow is the indicator light on the control panel dropping out after an hour..dont get that..
Andy

You are most likely right Andy, my first thought was starter battery full so alternator not doing much then whatever went to the lithiums down possibly minimalist wiring was being sucked up straight away hence not showing the same terminal voltage.

 

[ManTheVan]

Welcome to the forum Bore1. Stick with us! I hope you find the solution to your problem soon.

 

[Bore1]

I am in progress of locating fuses and draining my lithium as we speak. Just to see if it charges if it has under 13v. I am home with the car so can do testing of your suggestion. Thanks guys

 

[Bore1]

If i disconnect the leasure (lithium) battery, and start the engine, should i read alternator charge voltage on the leasure wiring then?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Pausim]

I have a lithium battery and a CBE DS300. 13.7V from the alternator is probably not enough to properly charge the lithium. My Relion needs somewhere between 14.2V and 14.6V. My CBE mains charger puts out 14.3V and this seems to hold the battery ok but when on an electric hook up it doesn’t really matter if it is less than 100%. When it does matter is when you arrive somewhere without a hook up and need the battery full so I have fitted a B2B charger.

There could be a voltage drop within the DS300, I often find the B1 and B2 voltages do not match each other. With your alternator only running at 13.7V and the lithium being less than full I think that the battery may be pulling the voltage down. A hungry lithium battery has a low internal resistance and they are greedy when hungry. The long wiring from the alternator through the the DS300 could well have more resistance and voltage drop than the run from B2 to your lithium, this might exaggerate the voltage difference.

If i disconnect the leasure (lithium) battery, and start the engine, should i read alternator charge voltage on the leasure wiring then?

That sounds like a good idea. If the B2 voltage goes up with the leisure battery disconnected it would help confirm my theory that a hungry lithium is pulling the voltage down. It would also indicate that there are no problems between the alternator and the DS300.

With your alternator output at 13.7V it makes me wonder whether your Citroen has a smart alternator. If it has a smart alternator it will compromise the leisure battery charging unless the constructor has fitted a B2B or booster.

 

[Bore1]

I have a lithium battery and a CBE DS300. 13.7V from the alternator is probably not enough to properly charge the lithium. My Relion needs somewhere between 14.2V and 14.6V. My CBE mains charger puts out 14.3V and this seems to hold the battery ok but when on an electric hook up it doesn’t really matter if it is less than 100%. When it does matter is when you arrive somewhere without a hook up and need the battery full so I have fitted a B2B charger.

There could be a voltage drop within the DS300, I often find the B1 and B2 voltages do not match each other. With your alternator only running at 13.7V and the lithium being less than full I think that the battery may be pulling the voltage down. A hungry lithium battery has a low internal resistance and they are greedy when hungry. The long wiring from the alternator through the the DS300 could well have more resistance and voltage drop than the run from B2 to your lithium, this might exaggerate the voltage difference.


That sounds like a good idea. If the B2 voltage goes up with the leisure battery disconnected it would help confirm my theory that a hungry lithium is pulling the voltage down. It would also indicate that there are no problems between the alternator and the DS300.

With your alternator output at 13.7V it makes me wonder whether your Citroen has a smart alternator. If it has a smart alternator it will compromise the leisure battery charging unless the constructor has fitted a B2B or booster.

This make alot of sense. I tried disconnecting the leasure battery, but then the cbe unit would not let any power trough. It measured 1.35v over the +B2. I will drain the battery down to 12v and then start the engine, and see if it charges. Can't find any relays or fuses that can cause a problem either.

 

[two]

Not sure what the nominal voltage of you Lithium battery is?
The CBE may be confused by the presence of the new battery because it was expecting to meet the characteristics of a Gel or flooded battery.
B2B (with a Lithium charging profile) would improve the situation but I'm not sure that one is necessary; thicker wires from the alternator could be all that's needed. Did you measure available V at the alternator?

 

[Bore1]

At idle i measure 13.9v on start battery, but when i rev it up it easy goes over 14v.
I got unpatient draining my lithium now because i have no heavy load to put on it, so i started the engine when the lithium measured 13.2V. The startbattery got 13.9V, but the charging light never came on for the leisure battery, but when i tried to rev up the engine the charging light startet blinking fast, and it was a loud clicking noise behind the cbe control panel (not the electro box) then after around 10 blinks/clicks it stopped and charging light went off. This is not good

 

[Pausim]

As a new member you may run out of free posts soon and need to become a full member.

Not sure what the nominal voltage of you Lithium battery is?
The CBE may be confused by the presence of the new battery because it was expecting to meet the characteristics of a Gel or flooded battery.
B2B (with a Lithium charging profile) would improve the situation but I'm not sure that one is necessary; thicker wires from the alternator could be all that's needed. Did you measure available V at the alternator?

My CBE kit is not confused by my lithium battery.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[autorouter]

OK, you may think this is an irrelevant question, but it's not. Does the awning light go off automatically when you start the engine, or does it stay on?

There's a circuit that controls the relay that connects the leisure battery to the alternator/starter battery when the engine is running. It also switches off the awning light if it's on.

 

[Bore1]

As a new member you may run out of free posts soon and need to become a full member.

My CBE kit is not confused by my lithium battery.

I have already paid for membership

 

[Bore1]

OK, you may think this is an irrelevant question, but it's not. Does the awning light go off automatically when you start the engine, or does it stay on?

There's a circuit that controls the relay that connects the leisure battery to the alternator/starter battery when the engine is running. It also switches off the awning light if it's on.

What is Awning lights? If it is the lights in the roof in the cabin, it shuts off when i close the door only.

Nominal voltage on the lithium is 12.8

 

[andy63]

Still following this ..and still thinking that when your engine is running you should be seeing near enough similar voltages on your start and leisure batteries..if you arnt the start battery isn't connected to your leisure ..so most likely a fuse will have gone or the split charge relay isn't closing
Andy

 

[Pausim]

What is Awning lights? If it is the lights in the roof in the cabin, it shuts off when i close the door only.

Nominal voltage on the lithium is 12.8

One on the outside, usually above the door.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Dave2000]

Working out the state of charge of a lithium battery is not easy because of the small voltage range present.
Please see the table below which is a good guide for most LIFEPO4 cells. Note that there are only 0.2 volts between, say 13.1 volts 40% charge, and 13.3 volts 90%charge.That's half the capacity of the battery.
Now consider your voltage reading of 13.12, depending on the accuracy of your meter, it could be 0.2-0.3 volts out, so is the battery 40% charged or 90% charged?
The ideal charge voltage is in the region of 14.3 volts, so you will be a bit under direct from the alternator.
As they have a lower resistance it may well be demanding a higher charge rate, if you double the charge rate, you double the voltage drop, so as already mentioned, check the voltage with the battery disconnected. Without a battery to battery charger it is unlikely to get a full charge
My opinion is probable a combination of the two above, ie meter accuracy and voltage drop, as 13.7 from the alternator does seen on the low side. I am not aware of Peugeot/Citroen fitting smart alternators, but stand to be corrected.
Please remember Lithium do not like a float charge, so if you are on hookup alot make sure the charger is suitable.
The table is at rest voltages but gives a good indication of the problems faced. The only certain way to monitor the state of charge id via a battery monitor.

 

[Bore1]

One on the outside, usually above the door.

I do not have a light outside.

Working out the state of charge of a lithium battery is not easy because of the small voltage range present.
Please see the table below which is a good guide for most LIFEPO4 cells. Note that there are only 0.2 volts between, say 13.1 volts 40% charge, and 13.3 volts 90%charge.That's half the capacity of the battery.
Now consider your voltage reading of 13.12, depending on the accuracy of your meter, it could be 0.2-0.3 volts out, so is the battery 40% charged or 90% charged?
The ideal charge voltage is in the region of 14.3 volts, so you will be a bit under direct from the alternator.
As they have a lower resistance it may well be demanding a higher charge rate, if you double the charge rate, you double the voltage drop, so as already mentioned, check the voltage with the battery disconnected. Without a battery to battery charger it is unlikely to get a full charge
My opinion is probable a combination of the two above, ie meter accuracy and voltage drop, as 13.7 from the alternator does seen on the low side. I am not aware of Peugeot/Citroen fitting smart alternators, but stand to be corrected.
Please remember Lithium do not like a float charge, so if you are on hookup alot make sure the charger is suitable.
The table is at rest voltages but gives a good indication of the problems faced. The only certain way to monitor the state of charge id via a battery monitor.

This is alot of good info. The voltage i have been measuring is on idle., so if i rev up the voltage increase.
If i disconnected the battery, i only got a reading of 1.35V volt, so the DS300 wont send power trough without the battery there. I am most concerned with the clicking on the control panel now.
As Andy has pointed out, it could be a fault in a splitrelay or fuse. I have measured 13.7v to the +B1 so no fault from alternator, but the split relay is integrated in the Ds300 unit so dont know how to check that

 

[andy63]

I do not have a light outside.



This is alot of good info. The voltage i have been measuring is on idle., so if i rev up the voltage increase.
If i disconnected the battery, i only got a reading of 1.35V volt, so the DS300 wont send power trough without the battery there. I am most concerned with the clicking on the control panel now.
As Andy has pointed out, it could be a fault in a splitrelay or fuse. I have measured 13.7v to the +B1 so no fault from alternator, but the split relay is integrated in the Ds300 unit so dont know how to check that

if you are sure that you are getting alternator voltage to the ds300 unit then you may need to check the engine run signal that is responsible for closing the split charge relay... the ds300 boards differ so I can't be certain , but here is a copy of a post I read somewhere which might be helpful in checking if that signal is present.. thats why autoroute was asking about the awning light... its normally prevented from operating by the engine run signal....
.
""""".The simulated D+ signal is derived from an ignition switch controlled supply. It is I believe monitored by an integrated circuit (operational amplifier) on the DSxxx, and operates a small rectangular relay. The contacts of this relay control the split charge and fridge relays. The same output is made available at FA4 for satellite dishes etc. This is a useful test point."""""

you will have to open up the ds300 unit to check this..
Andy
.

 

[Bore1]

Ok. I will try to check that. Here is a pic of my ds300. I see that they are different. I have seen manuals on how to fit a b2b. All manuals say i have to cut the R37 resistor, but i dont have a r37

 

[autorouter]

I think the problem is the alternator is not charging the leisure battery even though it is charging the starter battery. Starting from scratch, there are many possible faults that could cause this.

There will be a relay (an electrically operated switch) that connects the leisure battery and starter battery when the engine is running. I don't think it's inside the DS300 unit. I think CBE systems usually have separate relays mounted close to the box, labelled Boite Relais Securite, containing a big relay and a large and small fuse. If there's two, the other one will probably be for the fridge 12V heater element supply. Are there any such relay boxes around?

The manual I have is a bad machine translation

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/user/downloads/CBE%20PC100%20KIT%20&%20PC200%20KIT%20instruction%20manual.pdf

Do you have a display panel, if so which one?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}