Problem charging lithium (1 Viewer)

[Bore1]

""""".The simulated D+ signal is derived from an ignition switch controlled supply. It is I believe monitored by an integrated circuit (operational amplifier) on the DSxxx, and operates a small rectangular relay. The contacts of this relay control the split charge and fridge relays. The same output is made available at FA4 for satellite dishes etc. This is a useful test point."""""

you will have to open up the ds300 unit to check this..
Andy
.

I have used voltmeter on FA4. No readings either when ignition on or off.

 

[andy63]

Ok. I will try to check that. Here is a pic of my ds300. I see that they are different. I have seen manuals on how to fit a b2b. All manuals say i have to cut the R37 resistor, but i dont have a r37

yea...thats a different board to mine but it may still have the FA4 terminal on it to check the run signal..
Pausim who has posted on this thread has a great work around for fitting a battery to battery charger and disabling the cbe split charge system without the need to cut resistors ... there was a good thread running on his solution..
my system employs external relays for start and leisure batteries and I was simply able to disconnect the start battery feed to the dsc300 board and fit the battery to battery in its place.. everything else worked as before..
Andy

 

[Bore1]

I think the problem is the alternator is not charging the leisure battery even though it is charging the starter battery. Starting from scratch, there are many possible faults that could cause this.

There will be a relay (an electrically operated switch) that connects the leisure battery and starter battery when the engine is running. I don't think it's inside the DS300 unit. I think CBE systems usually have separate relays mounted close to the box, labelled Boite Relais Securite, containing a big relay and a large and small fuse. If there's two, the other one will probably be for the fridge 12V heater element supply. Are there any such relay boxes around?

I cant find any. But i have the basic pc-100 control panel. If you have the digital pc-200 it comes with an amperometer. That is probably just a shunt?

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[andy63]

I think the problem is the alternator is not charging the leisure battery even though it is charging the starter battery. Starting from scratch, there are many possible faults that could cause this.

There will be a relay (an electrically operated switch) that connects the leisure battery and starter battery when the engine is running. I don't think it's inside the DS300 unit. I think CBE systems usually have separate relays mounted close to the box, labelled Boite Relais Securite, containing a big relay and a large and small fuse. If there's two, the other one will probably be for the fridge 12V heater element supply. Are there any such relay boxes around?

the op appears from the photo to have a B1 terminal on his ds300 board.. if the system employed separate relays then there is no need for that terminal on the board..
Andy

 

[andy63]

I have used voltmeter on FA4. No readings either when ignition on or off.

there should be a supply to that terminal with the engine running.. if there isn't you could check a 3amp D+ fuse on your ds300 unit
Andy

 

[autorouter]

Does the Alternator Charging symbol show up on the PC100 panel? See number 8.

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[Bore1]

there should be a supply to that terminal with the engine running.. if there isn't you could check a 3amp D+ fuse on your ds300 unit
Andy

The fuse is intact. Maybe i measure wrong? I use voltmeter and have one pin on the Fa4 and one on the negative connector

 

[Bore1]

I found the D+ ignition wire. It is the orange one in the middle of panel. It is 0V when ignition is of, and 12V when ignition is on.

Regarding the charging light. As i said earlier it was not on, but when i rev up the engine it startet blinking with a clicking noise on the control panel, and then it went off again, and never came back

 

[stevewagner]

Does your lithium battery have a built in battery management system and does the CBE have a lithium switch? If not you won't get sufficient voltage to charge it.

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[Bore1]

Does your lithium battery have a built in battery management system and does the CBE have a lithium switch? If not you won't get sufficient voltage to charge it.

Yes, the lithium has a BMS, and no, the CBE has no switch, so it will not be a good solution, but it should give the lithium some charge.

 

[Pausim]

From your picture I can see your DS300 is different from my one. In particular I notice a micro switch alongside the fuses. Is this marked with any information? I seem to remember reading somewhere that at one time some DS300 units had a small switch to disable the relay that links the engine and leisure batteries (instead of cutting out the resistor). If you have such a switch it is possible that it is in the wrong position.

 

[two]

As a new member you may run out of free posts soon and need to become a full member.

My CBE kit is not confused by my lithium battery.

...well I am!

My thoughts are that not all Li batteries may present the same voltage.

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[Bore1]

From your picture I can see your DS300 is different from my one. In particular I notice a micro switch alongside the fuses. Is this marked with any information? I seem to remember reading somewhere that at one time some DS300 units had a small switch to disable the relay that links the engine and leisure batteries (instead of cutting out the resistor). If you have such a switch it is possible that it is in the wrong position.

This switch is for normal fridge or three way fridge.

 

[Pausim]

Does your lithium battery have a built in battery management system and does the CBE have a lithium switch? If not you won't get sufficient voltage to charge it.

The CBE 510/516 battery charger has a gel setting that increases the output voltage to 14.3V, which is sufficient to give a reasonable charge to most lithium batteries. It works ok with my Relion lithium battery.

 

[andy63]

The fuse is intact. Maybe i measure wrong? I use voltmeter and have one pin on the Fa4 and one on the negative connector

that sounds right.. one lead on a good negative and probe the terminal with engine running..there should be 12v there..if not then it indicates you have no engine run signal even though you do have an ignition feed to the board.. I did notice that the D+fuse on your board looks like a red 10 amp fuse..its normally a 3amp yellow fuse ..is that a sign of previous issues with that circut???
Andy

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[Pausim]

This switch is for normal fridge or three way fridge.

OK not that then. On my model there is no switch, just a plug and socket. Another Funster recently posted about problems he was having with his electrics and eventually it turned out to be that someone had plugged that connection in but it was wrong for his type of fridge. It created lots of problems with the D+ signal. Is this switch in the right position for your type of fridge?

 

[autorouter]

the op appears from the photo to have a B1 terminal on his ds300 board.. if the system employed separate relays then there is no need for that terminal on the board..

OK, I got that one wrong then. Looking at the picture, my next guess is the split charge relay is the big black square component just above the B1 terminal.

Check that the B1 voltage is the same as the starter battery (so it is connected OK).
Check that the B2 voltage is the same as the leisure battery (so it is connected OK).
If both OK, and if there is a D+ signal on the orange wire to the white 2-way connector (see post 38) then check if the voltages at B1 and B2 are the same as each other when the engine is running.

If not, there's a fault with the split charge relay. Looks like a job for Apuljack Engineering.

Apuljack Engineering Ltd.

 

[Bore1]

that sounds right.. one lead on a good negative and probe the terminal with engine running..there should be 12v there..if not then it indicates you have no engine run signal even though you do have an ignition feed to the board.. I did notice that the D+fuse on your board looks like a red 10 amp fuse..its normally a 3amp yellow fuse ..is that a sign of previous issues with that circut???
Andy

I found the correct wire for ignition, and it works. That is right about the fuse. Nicely spotted. I belive previous owner had problems with the side door sentral lock/electrical stairs. He blew a fuse all the time so disconnected door and stairs. Maybe the stairs has blown it. The D+ cable has a 3 amp fuse in engine compartment aswell.

The fridge switch is at the right setting.

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[andy63]

I found the correct wire for ignition, and it works. That is right about the fuse. Nicely spotted. I belive previous owner had problems with the side door sentral lock/electrical stairs. He blew a fuse all the time so disconnected door and stairs. Maybe the stairs has blown it. The D+ cable has a 3 amp fuse in engine compartment aswell.

The fridge switch is at the right setting.

Ok....but bear in mind that the ignition feed to the board is not the engine run signal..
It has to be present...to obtain a run signal..but you still need an engine run signal for your split charge relay to operate...and im thinking you haven't got that signal if you arnt getting a voltage on the F4 terminal mentioned earlier..
Wish I could be more helpful but if your engine run fuse is intact I'm stuck..
Andy

 

[autorouter]

From your picture I can see your DS300 is different from my one. In particular I notice a micro switch alongside the fuses. Is this marked with any information? I seem to remember reading somewhere that at one time some DS300 units had a small switch to disable the relay that links the engine and leisure batteries (instead of cutting out the resistor). If you have such a switch it is possible that it is in the wrong position.

Maybe that's what one of those jumpers is for: J11 and J12 (just left of the split charge relay). They are in the right position on the board to do that job.

For those not familiar with jumpers, they are small wire links , used to enable or disable certain board functions, usually at the installation stage, or for major reconfigurations such as fitting a B2B instead of using a split charge relay.

 

[pappajohn]

With the voltage difference between B1 and B2 with the engine running it seems the split charge wiring is too small causing a volt drop.
I doubt it would be noticeable using a wet lead acid battery but the lithium needs a much higher voltage (14+ volts) to attain a full charge.

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[Bore1]

Maybe that's what one of those jumpers is for: J11 and J12. They are in the right position on the board to do that job.

For those not familiar with jumpers, they are small wire links , used to enable or disable certain board functions, usually at the installation stage, or for major reconfigurations such as fitting a B2B instead of using a split charge relay.

It looks like that could be something, but i dont know what. Its not shown in any diagrams i have found

 

[Bore1]

This is from manual for the ds300. Here you can see that the battery seperator is on this board somwhere. Cant find more info than this.

CAR BATTERY (B1) RECHARGING
When the battery charger is charging, an electronic device allows a recharging (max 2A) of the car battery (B1), the system gives priority to the leisure battery (B2).

LEISURE BATTERY (B2) RECHARGING
a) by alternator: through the separating relais, when the engine is started. The +KEY engine starting controls electronically a small relais which controls the other relais: parallel, fridge, awning light, etc.
b) by 230V net: buffer system through battery charger (see " ").
c) by solar panel: through a solar regulator.

ELECTRONIC BATTERY SEPARATOR
An electronic device, which is controlled by the + Key engine starting, switches on the battery parallel when the alternator voltage is under 13,3V and switches it off when the engine starting key is off or the voltage is under 12V. This device controls also the awning light’s relais, which works only when the engine is off.

 

[autorouter]

ELECTRONIC BATTERY SEPARATOR
An electronic device, which is controlled by the + Key engine starting, switches on the battery parallel when the alternator voltage is under 13,3V and switches it off when the engine starting key is off or the voltage is under 12V. This device controls also the awning light’s relais, which works only when the engine is off.

I have tried to clarify the obviously machine-translated text.
ELECTRONIC BATTERY SEPARATOR SPLIT CHARGE RELAY
An electronic device, which is controlled by the + Key engine starting, switches on the battery parallel connects the batteries in parallel when the alternator voltage is under over 13,3V and switches it off when the engine starting key is off or the voltage is under 12V. This device controls also the awning light’s relais relay, which works only when the engine is off.

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[autorouter]

I have measured 13.7v to the +B1 so no fault from alternator, but the split relay is integrated in the Ds300 unit so dont know how to check that

Sorry, I missed that bit. I answered that in post #47:

Check that the B1 voltage is the same as the starter battery (so it is connected OK).
Check that the B2 voltage is the same as the leisure battery (so it is connected OK).
If both OK, and if there is a D+ signal on the orange wire to the white 2-way connector (see post 38) then check if the voltages at B1 and B2 are the same as each other when the engine is running.

By B1 and B2 I mean the B1 and B2 terminals of the DS300 unit. Not the terminals of the batteries. I know in theory they should be the same, but due to voltage drop along the wires there might be small differences. Or even large differences if there's a bad connection somewhere.

 

[DaveandJen]

This is a longshot but is it possible for you to fit a new battery of the same type / class that was fitted when your motorhome was supplied new and see what happens? I'm not an expert on control panels / charging systems but have read a number of times in the past of problems when upgrading the standard fit battery and getting problems and Sargent systems being one that comes to mind.

 

[Bore1]

Sorry, I missed that bit. I answered that in post #47:

By B1 and B2 I mean the B1 and B2 terminals of the DS300 unit. Not the terminals of the batteries. I know in theory they should be the same, but due to voltage drop along the wires there might be small differences. Or even large differences if there's a bad connection somewhere.

Thank you for taking the time!
B1 and starter battery both measure 12.6V when engine off.
B2 and leisure (lithium) both measure 13.12V when engine off
D1+ orange wire gets 12V when ignition is on

When engine is running:
startbattery 13.7V
b1 13.12V
b2 13.12V
leisure (lithium) 13.12V

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[ManTheVan]

Ok. I will try to check that. Here is a pic of my ds300. I see that they are different. I have seen manuals on how to fit a b2b. All manuals say i have to cut the R37 resistor, but i dont have a r37

See Pausim thread on fitting a changeover relay instead of cutting the resistor. This is what I did and it has worked very well indeed. He knows what he is saying...

 

[Pausim]

Thank you for taking the time!
B1 and starter battery both measure 12.6V when engine off.
B2 and leisure (lithium) both measure 13.12V when engine off
D1+ orange wire gets 12V when ignition is on

When engine is running:
startbattery 13.7V
b1 13.12V
b2 13.12V
leisure (lithium) 13.12V

This information is interesting but unexpected. It looks like when the engine is off the two batteries are properly separated 12.7V and 13.12V with B1 and B2 matching the appropriate battery voltages. However when the engine is running the two batteries remain separate with the engine one rising to 13.7V and the leisure one staying at 13.12V. B2 still matches the leisure battery voltage showing nothing is coming through from the engine. More surprisingly B1 now matches the B2 and leisure battery voltage. This suggests to me that when the engine starts the connection between the engine battery and B1 is separated and at the same time the DS300 internal split charge relay closes connecting B1 and B2 so that both are now powered by the leisure battery.

This is exactly how my system now behaves since fitting a normally closed relay on the wire between the engine battery and B1, so that I can connect a B2B directly to the leisure battery without causing an unwanted loop.

Has your campervan had a previous owner who might have made some modifications? What is the base vehicle (Mercedes, Fiat, etc) and what year was it made? Is it possible to follow the wire from B1 all the way back to the battery to check whether a relay or other device has been added?

On my DS300 the R37 resistor is at the bottom left of the circuit board to the left of the large white connector. If your unit is missing the resistor does it look like one has been removed from this position? Are you thinking of adding a B2B?

 

[Bore1]

This information is interesting but unexpected. It looks like when the engine is off the two batteries are properly separated 12.7V and 13.12V with B1 and B2 matching the appropriate battery voltages. However when the engine is running the two batteries remain separate with the engine one rising to 13.7V and the leisure one staying at 13.12V. B2 still matches the leisure battery voltage showing nothing is coming through from the engine. More surprisingly B1 now matches the B2 and leisure battery voltage. This suggests to me that when the engine starts the connection between the engine battery and B1 is separated and at the same time the DS300 internal split charge relay closes connecting B1 and B2 so that both are now powered by the leisure battery.

This is exactly how my system now behaves since fitting a normally closed relay on the wire between the engine battery and B1, so that I can connect a B2B directly to the leisure battery without causing an unwanted loop.

Has your campervan had a previous owner who might have made some modifications? What is the base vehicle (Mercedes, Fiat, etc) and what year was it made? Is it possible to follow the wire from B1 all the way back to the battery to check whether a relay or other device has been added?

On my DS300 the R37 resistor is at the bottom left of the circuit board to the left of the large white connector. If your unit is missing the resistor does it look like one has been removed from this position? Are you thinking of adding a B2B?

It is a 2005 Citroen. Nothing has been done to it as i know. It is no relay by the battery. Could it be the voltage drops down to B2 voltage because the lithium sucks inn all the power?

Yes my plan is to fit a b2b if the original system cant handle it. I have no resistor at that position. Looks like i have a version without that feature

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