Payload:is 3500kg enough? (1 Viewer)

[Poppy Williams]

The majority of Motorhome all seem to be 3500kg but is that enough payload for two people wanting to travel for weeks at at time? We have been looking at bigger vans but it means my husband taking his C1 licence as he had a NZ licence and they wont add it on. I look at lots of Motorhome with 3500kg and love the layout and design but are they practical? We would like to take two bikes with us also. Just wondered what your thoughts were and how you find your Motorhome with regard to weight. Is everyone driving round exceeding their weight limits?

 

[tacr2man]

If over 3500kgs the V5C will show the vehicle revenue class as
Private Heavy Goods. Difficult to argue it is not a goods vehicle. I suspect the legal cost of trying to prove that point is greater than original penalty and no guarantee of success.

Thats only the revenue class , but you dont have a tacho do you ,or speed limiter . Below 3500kg , plg

Definition of vehicle categories
1. Extracted from 2007/46/EC as last amended by 385/2009)
Vehicle categories are defined according to the following classification: (Where reference is made to "maximum mass" in the following definitions, this means "technically permissible maximum laden mass" as specified in item 2.8 of Annex I of the above Directive.)

Category M: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers.

• Category M1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat.
• Category M2: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass not exceeding 5 tonnes.
• Category M3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass exceeding 5 tonnes.

The types of bodywork and codifications pertinent to the vehicles of category M are defined in Part C of this Annex paragraph 1 (vehicles of category M1) and paragraph 2 (vehicles of categories M2 and M3) to be used for the purpose specified in that Part.

Category N: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of goods.

• Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes.
• Category N2: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 3,5 tonnes but not exceeding 12 tonnes.
• Category N3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 12 tonnes.

 

[Deneb]

motor homes do carry goods .
your goods . they arent for sale or hire /reward .
clothes ,food , bits and pieces , they are all goods .
there is also the term or burden.
most things could be classed as burden.
another one of those language terms that can be several versions of the same thing ,or not.

No, no, no. As @tacr2man has explained, motorhomes are M1 special category vehicles and most definitely not goods vehicles. I suspect you also carry some or all of those things in a car from time to time. Does that make your car a goods vehicle as well.

A goods vehicle is constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods as its primary purpose. A private car and a motorhome are constructed for the carriage of passengers for particular purposes. Both may also have the capacity to carry some goods within the broad meaning of the word, but incidental to their primary function, and not as what they were specifically intended for.

If over 3500kgs the V5C will show the vehicle revenue class as Private Heavy Goods. Difficult to argue it is not a goods vehicle. I suspect the legal cost of trying to prove that point is greater than original penalty and no guarantee of success.

PHGV is a specific taxation class, which has nothing to do with the vehicle type as defined by EEC regulations and the Road Traffic Act. If your motorhome has seats and a table, sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats, cooking facilities, and storage facilities which are rigidly fixed to the living compartment (although the table may be designed to be easily removable) then it is defined as a motor caravan "a special purpose M category vehicle", i.e. "a motor vehicle with at least four wheels constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers".

As it is a M category vehicle by that definition it cannot in any way be considered a goods vehicle, because they are N category vehicles, not M.

Its maximum permissible weight is irrelevant to that definition but matters when determining the taxation class it falls within under different legislation.

Are you saying that if you own a car first registered prior to 1st January 2001 that it must also be a goods vehicle and not a passenger car, because it is taxed in the Private Light Goods Vehicle class?

Motorhomes are only slotted into the PLG or PHGV classes depending on their revenue weight, where they are also either registered prior to 1/1/2001 or if subsequently their final stage CoC does not include a CO2 value and/or they do not fall within the scope of the other taxation classes. In other words the PLG and PHGV classes are also used as a catch all for vehicles not otherwise specifically classified in the Vehicles Excise and Registration Act.

See, it's quite easy to prove really

 

[spitfire]

Yes it’s been posted on here before, I believe up to +5% warning, above that and up to +10% fine and remove surplus weight before continuing, above +10%

On a tv programme on the A1 this week a scaffold truck was stopped and weighed by DVSA , 3500kg gvw weighed at 5600kg , naturally it was impounded.

Sorry didn’t realize that it had been posted before . Just thought French situation might be of interest

 

[tacr2man]

Just add that if a motorcaravan is carry "goods" that are not directly involved in living in the motorhome then it becomes a living van which is a goods vehicle subject to plating and Goods vehicle testing IIRC

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[Larrynwin]

Sorry didn’t realize that it had been posted before . Just thought French situation might be of interest

It was in an earlier thread, a favourite and important subject

 

[vwalan]

No, no, no. As @tacr2man has explained, motorhomes are M1 special category vehicles and most definitely not goods vehicles. I suspect you also carry some or all of those things in a car from time to time. Does that make your car a goods vehicle as well.

A goods vehicle is constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods as its primary purpose. A private car and a motorhome are constructed for the carriage of passengers for particular purposes. Both may also have the capacity to carry some goods within the broad meaning of the word, but incidental to their primary function, and not as what they were specifically intended for.



PHGV is a specific taxation class, which has nothing to do with the vehicle type as defined by EEC regulations and the Road Traffic Act. If your motorhome has seats and a table, sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats, cooking facilities, and storage facilities which are rigidly fixed to the living compartment (although the table may be designed to be easily removable) then it is defined as a motor caravan "a special purpose M category vehicle", i.e. "a motor vehicle with at least four wheels constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers".

As it is a M category vehicle by that definition it cannot in any way be considered a goods vehicle, because they are N category vehicles, not M.

Its maximum permissible weight is irrelevant to that definition but matters when determining the taxation class it falls within under different legislation.

Are you saying that if you own a car first registered prior to 1st January 2001 that it must also be a goods vehicle and not a passenger car, because it is taxed in the Private Light Goods Vehicle class?

Motorhomes are only slotted into the PLG or PHGV classes depending on their revenue weight, where they are also either registered prior to 1/1/2001 or if subsequently their final stage CoC does not include a CO2 value and/or they do not fall within the scope of the other taxation classes. In other words the PLG and PHGV classes are also used as a catch all for vehicles not otherwise specifically classified in the Vehicles Excise and Registration Act.

See, it's quite easy to prove really

when they changed the licencing laws in 1991 this was one of the things folk complained about and it was a sort of govt thing that m,homes carried goods . but not for hire and reward . before then you could drive m,homes of any weight .
i agree with you about m1 not n1 etc but over 3.5 ton a motor home becomes private heavy goods .
under its private light goods .
i know each govt department has its own idea of what is what.
all i know is after lots of arguing back in 91 the govt issued statements about carrying goods or burden.
at the time i had a 13ton coach as my camper. luckily i also had hgv , but i did get involved in the arguments with the govt.
in the end you could if you had been driving coaches privately keep your licence to drive them. needed a medical and someone to sign that you had been driving them not for hire or reward .
many things the govt departments dont seem to agree on . goods vehicles is definately one of them.

 

[vwalan]

Just add that if a motorcaravan is carry "goods" that are not directly involved in living in the motorhome then it becomes a living van which is a goods vehicle subject to plating and Goods vehicle testing IIRC

best tow a living van ! as part of an articulated combination .
yes , its subject to being exempt then .
thousands are .

 

[peterc10]

No, no, no. As @tacr2man has explained, motorhomes are M1 special category vehicles and most definitely not goods vehicles. I suspect you also carry some or all of those things in a car from time to time. Does that make your car a goods vehicle as well.

A goods vehicle is constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods as its primary purpose. A private car and a motorhome are constructed for the carriage of passengers for particular purposes. Both may also have the capacity to carry some goods within the broad meaning of the word, but incidental to their primary function, and not as what they were specifically intended for.



PHGV is a specific taxation class, which has nothing to do with the vehicle type as defined by EEC regulations and the Road Traffic Act. If your motorhome has seats and a table, sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats, cooking facilities, and storage facilities which are rigidly fixed to the living compartment (although the table may be designed to be easily removable) then it is defined as a motor caravan "a special purpose M category vehicle", i.e. "a motor vehicle with at least four wheels constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers".

As it is a M category vehicle by that definition it cannot in any way be considered a goods vehicle, because they are N category vehicles, not M.

Its maximum permissible weight is irrelevant to that definition but matters when determining the taxation class it falls within under different legislation.

Are you saying that if you own a car first registered prior to 1st January 2001 that it must also be a goods vehicle and not a passenger car, because it is taxed in the Private Light Goods Vehicle class?

Motorhomes are only slotted into the PLG or PHGV classes depending on their revenue weight, where they are also either registered prior to 1/1/2001 or if subsequently their final stage CoC does not include a CO2 value and/or they do not fall within the scope of the other taxation classes. In other words the PLG and PHGV classes are also used as a catch all for vehicles not otherwise specifically classified in the Vehicles Excise and Registration Act.

See, it's quite easy to prove really

I suspect the answer will be in the regulations that set out the bridge's use. And if they choose to differentiate between vehicle tolls based upon their taxation class then I think they will be able to. After all the French already do so on their toll roads. No mention of heights in those rules you quote but that doesn't stop them saying that anything over 3m is not class 2.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

When i poked THAT nest , I didn’t expect all of that

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[Podney]

Yes it is. Travel light.

 

[TrebleH]

An interesting thread I think, we have had a van at 3500 for some years and like many people found that if going to France, Spain or other where you are away for a while, are not sure where you will get your next water if wild camping or on aires which don't always have water it ie easy to be over weight if carrying bikes etc. I believe this applies more to British built vans which boast a gross of 3500 but water and diesel are not always taken into account whereas German vans include both in the weights given. We have just gone for a C1 in spite of being over 70 as we were fed up with having to think of weight all the time, you may well be at 3500 when you set off but if collecting a few souvenirs along the way.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

An interesting thread I think, we have had a van at 3500 for some years and like many people found that if going to France, Spain or other where you are away for a while, are not sure where you will get your next water if wild camping or on aires which don't always have water it ie easy to be over weight if carrying bikes etc. I believe this applies more to British built vans which boast a gross of 3500 but water and diesel are not always taken into account whereas German vans include both in the weights given. We have just gone for a C1 in spite of being over 70 as we were fed up with having to think of weight all the time, you may well be at 3500 when you set off but if collecting a few souvenirs along the way.

How does it apply more to British vans?
Are we now saying that a tonne of german metal weighs less than a tonne of British van....?Please give an example

 

[Reallyretired]

Before I knew about this forum I never even thought about vehicle weight. I once went to Amsterdam in a Kon-Tiki 650 (7 berth) with an official MAM of 3500kg with 7 people, 7 bikes and all their associated clutter. Two bikes on a rack at the back and the other 5 strapped down on the roof. Behaved absolutely fine on the road but must have been significantly overweight.

 

[Btg]

If you up the pay load the tax is cheaper

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[Cheshirecat57]

And some of the tolls are dearer :-(

 

[Btg]

Went from a auto trail to a autosleeper most tolls are cheaper

 

[pixer]

I think there are other threads on this forum that deal with this topic which contain much useful information. It is, up to a point a matter of personal choice, especially at the 70 year age, C1 licence, 3500kg split. My advice on buying a new 3500kg MH for what it is worth is to look carefully at the manufacturers specifications regarding "payload and MAM or GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). Get the dealer to weigh the vehicle preferably with an empty waste tank, full tank of fuel and full fresh water tank before purchase. Weigh the front and rear axles seperately and the van as a whole. Then compare them with the "Plate" on the actual vehicle. This will give you a very good idea of what payload you can carry and where in the van you should distribute it! 700kg (13.5cwt approx) or over payload should be well sufficient for long stays away, in my experience for 2 people. The plated front rear axle loads are typically 1850kg and 2000kg for a fiat ducato base (may be different for other vehicles and fiat variants) obviously more than 3500kg total; but the whole vehicle cannot exceed 3500kg in total on the road. After loading up weigh (front, rear, total) with everybody and thing in it, full fresh water and fuel, empty waste tank. This will then tell you if you are overloaded or not. If over then 1 litre water is 1kg at 4C. So empty water out to adjust. Adjustments may have to be made for different toilet types, but many are flushed from the fresh water supply. So make sure the cassette is empty when weighing. Doing it this way means that you are measuring at your maximum. Always empty waste tank if possible before taking on fresh water, otherwise you will be carrying its extra weight.

 

[SpeedyDux]

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, the longer and bigger the vehicle, the less likely there will be sufficient payload within the 3500 limit for drivers who do not have C1 license entitlement. Also, the more likely that the converter would push the the nominal weights shown in the brochure to the edge of permissible tolerances. Some might say they are fibbing but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. The consensus is that there is no substitute for an actual weighbridge.

Typical advertising and brochures create an impression that younger buyers with families can have all the bells and whistles, as well as plenty of interior space within the 3500 MTPLM, while payload seems a mere detail. "Must haves" add significant weight and eat the payload.

FWIW there appears to be a sweet spot for reasonable payload at about 6.5m length with most 3500 MTPLM coachbuilts, before options and extras. You can't assume that all PVCs will have ample payload just because they tend to be smaller.

 

[Chockswahay]

2 people for 2 weeks? I dunno what all the fuss is about, we did it almost full time for 3 years in our Globecar Globescout.

EASY!

It’s a ‘frame of mind’ thing

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[Tony50]

Our Chausson 718 XLB 180 bhp Gvw 4.4 Tons Heavy Chassis, 2x 100 watt solar panels 2x leisure batteries and Inverter in garage, Roadpro Sat.on Roof , Silver screen cover, outdoor Revolution air tube drive away awning, plus chairs, windbreaks clothes , food , Driver and passenger , full of water and fuel,(for this exercise) these are the normal things we take .
Put on weighbridge weigh 4.2 tonnes , but rear axle was over by 20 kgs , front axle spot on so no room for wine !

At the moment we could not use 3500kgs although I would like to one day, in saying that the Awning is going to go !
Tony A

 

[Minxy]

Flipping heck @Tony50 ... you must be carrying a LOT of extra weight there then, the payload at 3500kg is given as 482kg (obviously depends on what's included by the manufacturer, but assuming nothing on board (ie no gas, water etc) at 4200kg that's 700kg extra top that's been swallowed up meaning you are 'carrying' 1100kg of kit and kaboodle!!! Do you have lead boots????

 

[Tony50]

Flipping heck @Tony50 ... you must be carrying a LOT of extra weight there then, the payload at 3500kg is given as 482kg (obviously depends on what's included by the manufacturer, but assuming nothing on board (ie no gas, water etc) at 4200kg that's 700kg extra top that's been swallowed up meaning you are 'carrying' 1100kg of kit and kaboodle!!! Do you have lead boots????

No Lead there !!
Seriously though Heavy Chassis , larger tyres , and, full of water and full of fuel. 2x 10 Kg BP Gas Bottles (was BP)

 

[Minxy]

No Lead there !!
Seriously though Heavy Chassis , larger tyres , and, full of water and full of fuel. 2x 10 Kg BP Gas Bottles (was BP)

If that's all there is in addition to the other stuff then I assume extra weight must be due to ... the occupants?????

 

[Tony50]

If that's all there is in addition to the other stuff then I assume extra weight must be due to ... the occupants?????

Thanks a bunch

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[TrebleH]

In response to Cheshirecat57's comments. If me thread is read correctly I didn't say that a German tonne is different than British tonne, what I said was that British manufacturers don't include water an diesel in the 3500 gross, where German manufacturers do as I understand it. There always has to be one smart Alec!!

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Ok deal,I will be the one
Smart and Stupid in one night on a similar subject

See, everyone has a different opinion

 

[PhilDurrant]

We were recently stopped in Belgium and fined 400euros for being 300kg over. The (very nice) cop said that he believed most 3500Kg vans were overweight.

 

[peterc10]

We were recently stopped in Belgium and fined 400euros for being 300kg over. The (very nice) cop said that he believed most 3500Kg vans were overweight.

Did they insist on you reducing the weight before they would let you go on your way? If they did how did you manage to do that?

 

[Lenny HB]

We were recently stopped in Belgium and fined 400euros for being 300kg over. The (very nice) cop said that he believed most 3500Kg vans were overweight.

Probably applies to most French & Belgium vans.

300kg is a lot to be over, how often do you check your weight?

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[PhilDurrant]

Oddly no.he didn't make us reduce the weight but we did drop half the water tank(about 60kg)
We had checked the weight last year in full touring trim and it was 60kg under.Just down to bits & bobs accumulated over time








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