No new diesel or petrol engines by 2030 so what about....

Coolcats

Coolcats

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I know this has been discussed before and same may delay or be put off buying a Current MoHo but could this be a solution.....adding an Electric Motor to an existing vehicle and before the naysayers start it is clear that there is an interest in the market place to do so and more then just an interest it is happening Read more Here
 
It has been happening on a small scale for a good number of years now, when we were last in La Rochelle they had a fleet of old Citroen Saxo's that had been converted and could be hired a bit like a Boris bike I think, also a small company in Germany putting electric powertrains in light commercial vehicles.

From 2022 the ZF 8 speed gearbox will be designed for hybrid powertrain, wether this will be practical in a motorhome might be down to the government defining what constitutes a reasonable range on electric.

At the moment I see no plans to ban fossil fuelled HGV before 2040 so the simple answer might be buy a MH on a HGV chassis and extend its life by 10 years:sneaky:
 
They've already said that vans won't be covered by the ban. Electric vehicles need to be as light as possible and aerodynamic to get good range. Which does not currently work well for larger vehicles.

But I expect we'll see "mild hybrid" technology become the default in vans soon. Mild hybrid is just a step on from stop-start. The starter motor is beefed up so when you're stopped and hit the go pedal, the motor both pulls you off the line and gets the engine started. But it's disengaged by about 5mph. And as you stop, it works as a dynamo to recharge it's small battery. It gives a few percent fuel saving in stop-start traffic and only weighs a few kg.

After that though, I'm not sure where we'll go... More synthetic/bio fuels to fill the gap???
 
TDub49 said:
Not a conversion but a related topic, but the future is coming fast it seems (and happily, it's not all Tesla) . . . https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/peu...KiLnRahhmeQIHEOguAB02OXDO6m0BQ1dx-WJ-Pt-dCZRg
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Hydrogen might be workable for larger, heavier vehicles. So could come to motorhomes.

I'm pretty confident that batteries are the way for cars though. And maybe eventually it'll trickle up to larger vehicles too. But at the moment, <100mile range for a battery motorhome is not practical.

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I know there's a company in the States that replaces the petrol engines in old splitty VWs for a huge amount of money. so not a hybrid but the old Vdubs had pretty poor engines. 70mph going downhill with the wind behind you!
Haven't read your link as a poor connection in the Trossachs but I would like the idea of putting an electric motor on each wheel to get 4WD but suspect that is only feasible with all electric not hybrids
 
Lenny HB said:
Seems a bit late I thought all the modern hybrids were electric motors with the engine just driving a generator.
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"Series hybrids" are still a bit rare actually.

Most are still "parallel hybrids" where the electric motor and ICE divide the work up the mechanical forces between them. The Prius style pretty much has a differential between the electric and petrol motors with the output going to a normal gearbox.

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Guigsy said:
"Series hybrids" are still a bit rare actually.

Most are still "parallel hybrids" where the electric motor and ICE divide the work up the mechanical forces between them. The Prius style pretty much has a differential between the electric and petrol motors with the output going to a normal gearbox.
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BIL has a Kia Nero Hybrid that only has electric motors for the drivetrain. I though they were all going that way.
 
Lenny HB said:
BIL has a Kia Nero Hybrid that only has electric motors for the drivetrain. I though they were all going that way.
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I drove a couple of Lexus that are like that I believe but I didn't find it enjoyable, a bit "bridge to engine room can we have some more power please" and eventually it arrived, better to have technical drive augmented by a motor in the gearbox and then manufacturers just need to find space for a battery and you are there.
 
funflair said:
I drove a couple of Lexus that are like that I believe but I didn't find it enjoyable, a bit "bridge to engine room can we have some more power please" and eventually it arrived, better to have technical drive augmented by a motor in the gearbox and then manufacturers just need to find space for a battery and you are there.
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A mate had a Lexus hybrid. In normal mode, the petrol engine was barely running. If you floored it, you got bit of a push from the electrics, then there was a good delay before the combustion engine kicked in. In sport mode though, it was engaged most of the time and much more responsive.

Fully electric drive cars are brutally responsive though. Even the little town run-around EVs have serious kick off the line because they don't have turbos to spool up, revs to build, auto gearboxes to dither or clutches to slip.

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Coolcats said:
I know this has been discussed before and same may delay or be put off buying a Current MoHo but could this be a solution.....adding an Electric Motor to an existing vehicle and before the naysayers start it is clear that there is an interest in the market place to do so and more then just an interest it is happening Read more Here
Click to expand...
It will happen more and more. I think there will come a time in the not too distant future when a company will set up production of conversion packages for the most common cars that are potential classics.
Think Mini and the ilk. These kits will be able to be fitted by any garage with a bare minimum of equipment.

An EU car manufacturer has started doing this a year or more ago but I can't remember which one and can't find it just now.
GM has started doing it.
www.electrive.com

GM announces electric conversion kit - electrive.com

Starting in the second half of 2021, General Motors plans to sell an electric drive kit for hobbyists with components of the Chevy Bolt, which will enable
www.electrive.com www.electrive.com

There is a French company doing the pre-made kits already.
For the Renault Twingo II, Fiat 500, Citroën C1, Peugeot 107, Toyota Aygo, and VW Polo. The kits take about 4 hours to fit.
www.greencarreports.com

French company makes EV conversions easy for old clunkers

Transition One is aiming to convert older gasoline cars to electric cars in Europe—for just a fraction of the cost of a new EV.
www.greencarreports.com www.greencarreports.com

And a company in Swindon is doing a Mini Conversion kit.
www.autocar.co.uk

Swindon Powertrain offers EV conversion kit for classic Mini | Autocar

Owners can now replace their original A-Series engine with a 70kg electric system from £8850
www.autocar.co.uk www.autocar.co.uk

Lots of news about this over the last few years and it is only a matter of time before loads of these 3rd party kits start competing and pushing the prices down. I suspect that a lot of the majors will get into the market once they see demand rising.
 
I did mention that I think this will be a big thing moving forward but can't find that post(s) now.

This is one from last year though.
www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Future value of your motorhome

Wait til the blinkers come off on the realities of cobalt and lithium mining and the pollution caused by power stations, the particulates caused by rubber tyres etc. Electric cars may be replaced by Hydrogen or we could have vehicles running on magnetic fields "Maglev". There are already Maglev...
www.motorhomefun.co.uk www.motorhomefun.co.uk
 
Lenny HB said:
Seems a bit late I thought all the modern hybrids were electric motors with the engine just driving a generator.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed, that's the definition of a modern hybrid. Essentially an electric car with a small high voltage battery, charged by the ICE and regenerative braking. No need for a gearbox as such, only requiring one forward and one reverse gear, though some weird ones like the new Renault Clio hybrid have 2 mechanical auto gearboxes which is far too complicated and offends the KISS principle.


Guigsy said:
"Series hybrids" are still a bit rare actually.

Most are still "parallel hybrids" where the electric motor and ICE divide the work up the mechanical forces between them. The Prius style pretty much has a differential between the electric and petrol motors with the output going to a normal gearbox.
Click to expand...

Plug-in hybrids fall into a twilight world where the overriding purpose seems to be saving tax for company drivers. By some accounts they rarely use their EV propulsion and are gas guzzlers in ICE mode. "Mild" hybrids where the electric motor adds more power on demand, allowing a smaller more economical ICE for propulsion seem to be falling out of favour.

Toyota's hybrids seem wedded to their CVT auto transmission. Got to keep that factory busy!
 
I remember many years ago when Quentin Wilson was on tv reviewing a big old Mercedes and saying buy one now and enjoy before they become illegal. I wonder how many gave it a thought then.
 
SpeedyDux said:
Yes indeed, that's the definition of a modern hybrid. Essentially an electric car with a small high voltage battery, charged by the ICE and regenerative braking. No need for a gearbox as such, only requiring one forward and one reverse gear, though some weird ones like the new Renault Clio hybrid have 2 mechanical auto gearboxes which is far too complicated and offends the KISS principle.




Plug-in hybrids fall into a twilight world where the overriding purpose seems to be saving tax for company drivers. By some accounts they rarely use their EV propulsion and are gas guzzlers in ICE mode. "Mild" hybrids where the electric motor adds more power on demand, allowing a smaller more economical ICE for propulsion seem to be falling out of favour.

Toyota's hybrids seem wedded to their CVT auto transmission. Got to keep that factory busy!
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Hybrids do have benefits in certain situations. If you're doing a lot of stop-start driving like in heavy traffic (or Milton Keynes roundabouts), the regeneration the electric provides is really good for fuel economy. And Prius's were especially good in US where they weren't competing against many diesel cars. But lots of them have very low powered electric motors that often aren't practical to drive on electric alone... unless you're trying to pass the emissions drive cycle test, in which case you can claim a galactic MPG and sell to lots of company car drivers.

For sustained loads though (like motorway driving and larger vehicles), hybrids are useless because they don't store enough energy to last long, or have enough electric power to sustain higher speeds. So the battery and electric motor just becomes dead weight.

Longer term, I agree, most hybrid designs are just an over-complicated stop-gap until battery technology gets good enough and cheap enough to go full EV.

In the meantime though, I think just everything will be 'mild hybrid' soon. It adds minimal complexity as it's just an oversized starter motor, little cost and a battery not much bigger than you'd put on a cordless drill. But it worth a few percent mpg in urban driving.

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I am due for a change and have a couple of fancies but neither are EVs. Bit of a dilemma. My opinion is EVs are just not there yet with so much new battery technology on the horizon it would be daft to go EVs at this point.
 
buttons said:
I am due for a change and have a couple of fancies but neither are EVs. Bit of a dilemma. My opinion is EVs are just not there yet with so much new battery technology on the horizon it would be daft to go EVs at this point.
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It seems unlikely that there'll be a massive change overnight. But things are moving at a reasonable pace. In 5 years time, EVs today will look a bit dated with equivalent cars having ~20% more range and ~30% faster charging. So today's EV might not hold its value that well. But the same might happen to ICE cars. Look at the lease prices to see what the industry thinks the car will be worth in 3 years time.
 
Guigsy said:
Hybrids do have benefits in certain situations. If you're doing a lot of stop-start driving like in heavy traffic (or Milton Keynes roundabouts), the regeneration the electric provides is really good for fuel economy. And Prius's were especially good in US where they weren't competing against many diesel cars. But lots of them have very low powered electric motors that often aren't practical to drive on electric alone... unless you're trying to pass the emissions drive cycle test, in which case you can claim a galactic MPG and sell to lots of company car drivers.

For sustained loads though (like motorway driving and larger vehicles), hybrids are useless because they don't store enough energy to last long, or have enough electric power to sustain higher speeds. So the battery and electric motor just becomes dead weight.

Longer term, I agree, most hybrid designs are just an over-complicated stop-gap until battery technology gets good enough and cheap enough to go full EV.

In the meantime though, I think just everything will be 'mild hybrid' soon. It adds minimal complexity as it's just an oversized starter motor, little cost and a battery not much bigger than you'd put on a cordless drill. But it worth a few percent mpg in urban driving.
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I have to disagree about motorway driving. The latest hybrid we have uses a mix of electric propulsion and ICE to cruise easily at 70, while averaging about 65 mpg. The computer does the energy mixing very unobtrusively so it is sometime hard to tell if the ICE is running. The car could cruise faster, but I stick to the speed limit.

The hv battery is not much weight while the electric motor (and separate generator) is offset by not having a conventional gearbox, starter motor or alternator. Overall it is a bit heavier than the ICE supermini it replaced, but that used significantly more petrol.

Whether as consumers we should be forced to buy only EVs (and maybe some hybrids for a short period) from 2030 onwards is the big question that is not being asked. EVs should compete on merit alone. There should be a free choice between EVs, HEVs, and ICE cars (even diesels) without the arbitrary 2030 cut-off date. Let the free market decide. If EVs have a superior offer that suits every circumstance, the ICE and hybrid technology will become obsolete because consumers will stop buying them.
 
Hydrogen plant is being built in Herne Bay, hybrid vehicle have a flaw that is being let's say glossed over!
The petrol unit is not environmentally friendly, compared with it's full petrol counterparts. Glossed over, yes when tested they do not have an emission test for the petrol motors, classed as a battery vehicle.
The output is not amusing though.
 
SpeedyDux said:
I have to disagree about motorway driving. The latest hybrid we have uses a mix of electric propulsion and ICE to cruise easily at 70, while averaging about 65 mpg. The computer does the energy mixing very unobtrusively so it is sometime hard to tell if the ICE is running. The car could cruise faster, but I stick to the speed limit.

The hv battery is not much weight while the electric motor (and separate generator) is offset by not having a conventional gearbox, starter motor or alternator. Overall it is a bit heavier than the ICE supermini it replaced, but that used significantly more petrol.

Whether as consumers we should be forced to buy only EVs (and maybe some hybrids for a short period) from 2030 onwards is the big question that is not being asked. EVs should compete on merit alone. There should be a free choice between EVs, HEVs, and ICE cars (even diesels) without the arbitrary 2030 cut-off date. Let the free market decide. If EVs have a superior offer that suits every circumstance, the ICE and hybrid technology will become obsolete because consumers will stop buying them.
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But at sustained motorway speeds, the ICE is operating pretty efficiently and any assistance the electric provides will drain the battery fairly quickly. You're not gaining much by running it harder to charge the battery, just so you can run purely on the electric motor for a bit. Shuffling energy around costs efficiency.

Most hybrids still have a gearbox on the ICE. Just it's often a CVT box that's perfectly capable of driving the axles. They still weigh more than a pure ICE car that could have had the same plastic bonnet and aluminium wings.

EVs will get cheaper and more of the market will move over to them. I think the city runabouts are the next sector to get some serious competition. But there's still plenty of space where ICE (particularly diesels) make more sense from a purely functional perspective. But capitalism doesn't care about the environment, hence the artificial push that's being provided.

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Guigsy said:
But at sustained motorway speeds, the ICE is operating pretty efficiently and any assistance the electric provides will drain the battery fairly quickly. You're not gaining much by running it harder to charge the battery, just so you can run purely on the electric motor for a bit. Shuffling energy around costs efficiency.

Most hybrids still have a gearbox on the ICE. Just it's often a CVT box that's perfectly capable of driving the axles. They still weigh more than a pure ICE car that could have had the same plastic bonnet and aluminium wings.

EVs will get cheaper and more of the market will move over to them. I think the city runabouts are the next sector to get some serious competition. But there's still plenty of space where ICE (particularly diesels) make more sense from a purely functional perspective. But capitalism doesn't care about the environment, hence the artificial push that's being provided.
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I think you are describing the previous generation of hybrids. The good ones are more sophisticated today than 10 years ago. All new Hondas will be either EVs or full hybrids.

At motorway speeds the display shows the electric propulsion kicks in seamlessly, to support the ICE while going up inclines or during hard acceleration. The ICE drops out going downhill when the car is almost coasting, or recovering energy (the B setting gives close to one-pedal driving). The HV battery never drops below about 30%. The ICE itself is an Atkinson cycle, optimised for efficiency, not power. A combination of clever engineering that gives incremental energy efficiency gains. Which does add up. I'm impressed even if EV purists aren't.

CVT boxes are old tech and inefficient. Not required, due to the torque of the electric motor. The only limitation of a single speed gearbox electric propulsion system is restricted top speed. Who needs to be able to exceed 110 in the UK except the traffic cops?

I agree with your last paragraph. (y)
 
Ducato now available as electric model...no doubt as time goes by and battery tech improves we will see range and payload increases.

wonder who will be first to the market with a conversion

New e-Ducato Electric - Van, Chassis Cab, People Mover

Discover the complete e-Ducato electric commercial vehicles range and find the perfect solution for your business needs.
www.fiatprofessional.com www.fiatprofessional.com
 
MillieMoocher said:
Ducato now available as electric model...no doubt as time goes by and battery tech improves we will see range and payload increases.

wonder who will be first to the market with a conversion

New e-Ducato Electric - Van, Chassis Cab, People Mover

Discover the complete e-Ducato electric commercial vehicles range and find the perfect solution for your business needs.
www.fiatprofessional.com www.fiatprofessional.com
Click to expand...
Realistically the range is far too small. With an empty box van, it's only 220 miles. It's going to be a lot worse than that with half a house on the back. And plugging in an EHUs at a campsite would take days to recharge it.
 
I’ve been hearing about a large skills shortage to maintain these vehicles, and extortionate prices for replacement parts. I believe there was articles on Rip Off Britain and Watchdog.

I think it was Nissan and Peugeot cars involved but reports of most dealers having issues. 🤷‍♂️

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