Newbie electrical issues

[Daveyfos07]

Hi folks, hello from Northern Ireland. I am a complete newbie so I have a total newbie question. Just when I thought I was figuring out how everything works something else comes along and gives me something else to scratch my head over.

I have discovered:
Truma heater runs of diesel
Hot water immersion runs of gas
The 100ah battery under the seat is trickle charged by the wee grey box charger beside it when on hook up.
The leisure battery gets a better charger when driving.
Fridge works off gas when I'm parked or engine battery when driving.

Last night myself and my wee man went away for the night. All was good. Lights were working, fridge was on gas etc and we had a great wee night away.

This morning it was really cold so I plugged my hook up into my petrol powered external petrol inverter to power the kettle. I also switched on the immersion so we could have a shower and since it was so cold I put the truma diesel blow heater on as well.

As soon as I put the heater on I heard loud sparking sounds coming from under the passenger seat where the leisure battery is. This was accompanied by a mild burning smell.

I switched off my inverter, switched off the heating and immersion and the sparking sound stopped.

I then removed the seat and got my multimeter out and checked the battery. Reading 12.7v on battery. I plugged in the inverter and removed input charger lead. Tested the lead and there is 240v going into the charger. Took output lead off charger and there was 13v (approx) coming from the charger to the battery.

I then unplugged inverter and started engine. Leisure battery voltage went up to just under 14v.

I then tried the same thing I had done originally. Plugged in inverter. Boiled kettle. Switched heating on and switched immersion on. Everything worked perfectly fine. No sparking and no buring smell.

All fuses seem OK. The trip didn't blow and everything seems to be working OK. When I lifted seat off the mild burning smell was there but barely noticeable. It was also difficult to pinpoint as nothing looked burnt.

Has anybody else had an experience like this and if so do you know what caused it,?

Thanks in

Ps: my home is a 2008 ford kentucky. Ford transit cab and a kentucky sleeping area.

 

[Itsmcb]

From your description the only thing pulling any real power from the battery would be the diesel heater. These draw quite a few amps on start up due to the glow plug heating up. Do you have a loose or corroded connection under the seat somewhere between the battery and the heater?

 

[Daveyfos07]

Hi buddy, thanks for the response.

It did seem to be as soon as I switched the heater on and it sounded like electrical sparking under the seat along with a very mild burning smell.

However after it was all switched off I removed the seat and did exactly what I did before to see if I could isolate the problem and everything worked perfectly with no further problems.

Even though there was no further problems if it is the heater I'd like to resolve it as the last thing we need is something happening during the night if we have the heater on low.

The heater is by webasto (that is what is on the dial) and it supposedly runs off diesel. I'm assuming it still needs a small amount of power to fire it up? I take it that this is 12v power from the battery?

I'm wondering with the hook up to the generator on and then putting the heating on has the heating element tried to use the 240v power rather than the 12v and therefore caused a bit of confusion for the system.

How would I go about diagnosing a loose or pinched connection?

Thanks again

 

[Revolvor]

The heater is by webasto

Do you have manual for the Webasto heater? Do you know what model it is?

 

[PaulOH]

Bout ye... (sorry wildly stereotypical but we people from NI have an accent to preserve and defend!!!)
If you smelt burning wires, something burned somewhere. I concur with Itsmcb about the draw from the glowplugs and I think it would be a good idea to investigate it.

From the sound of it, your rig isn't brand new? So maybe someone's fitted something not to original spec or maybe did it themselves using materials not up to the job. Make sure you dominate your gas and electrics so you can have confidence in them - most of us will need some outside help to do this so maybe take it to or ask your nearest auto electrican about what happened?

If you can find a professional to look at it who is also a MH or caravan user it is very helpful, but not necessarily cheap so its not!!!

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[Nedge68]

Hmmm, did you check the base of the passenger seat for any burn marks, it is possible that the battery could be shorting on something, is there still any smell, if insulation has been overheating it gives of quite a distinctive smell that lingers, Some pic might help.

 

[Nedge68]

Have just read your post again, and am a little confused, you had a lot going on there, might be better to try one thing at a time. Did you have the generator and inventor running at the same time? I wouldn’t expect you to be able to have two sources of 230V running simultaneously unless you have got some way of synchronising them.
I think you had an electric kettle (kW?) and electric immersion (kW?) for water on simultaneously, depending on the kettle and water heating you could have enourmous load here a standard kettle being 3kW - 12A, a low power kettle 1-2kW or 4 - 8A
You immersion may have 0.5, 1, 1.5kW. 2, 4, 6A.
Going back to the Webasto heater, have you tried it on ventilation only to check the fan is running OK?
If the heater is running without the fan, the lack of air will soon overheat the unit, could be the source of the smell you reported.
You have to think differently in a MH, one thing at a time, multitasking gets them in a mess, not going to make the mistake of using gender stereotypes but I think you know what I am saying…

 

[XxAnthxX]

Did you have the generator and inventor running at the same time?

I read that, as it was an inverter generator…..as in one external petrol powered generator unit, plugged into the van EHU point.

 

[XxAnthxX]

The heater is by webasto (that is what is on the dial) and it supposedly runs off diesel. I'm assuming it still needs a small amount of power to fire it up? I take it that this is 12v power from the battery?

The Webasto will use 12v to power the fan and glow plug and diesel as its fuel.

If your water heater also runs off gas, why not just use a gas kettle and gas for hot water….then you should simply be using 12v to run the heating fan and glow plug.

Then you would only need to use your genny occasionally to charge your battery or any other 230v appliances you might need.

 

[Daveyfos07]

Hi folks, thanks for all the replies. It's much appreciated and yes I'm realising in a MH I need to think differently than I do in my house or static caravan.

I crawled underneath the van last night and found the heater. It's a webasto 12v 3500.

The home does not have a built in inverter (I think I'm getting my terms a bit mixed up). We have a platinum leisure battery with a small grey box beside it which is the charger. We then have a hook up cable which will either plug into the house, an EHU hook up or in my case a silent petrol generator.

I (think) what has happened is:
- I started the generator and plugged it in which gives me (limited) power to my 240v sockets.
- I then started boiling the kettle and flicked the immersion heater on for a shower.
- I then turned the webasto dial about 3 quarters up to get some heat into the van as it was cold.

I downloaded a manual last night and it stated the webasto heater should only start on 12v power and then once ignited will run off diesel.

I think what has happened is that somehow the webasto tried to start using the hook up and it was too much power and started to try and fry itself. I think I caught it early enough by switching everything off as I tested heating, power, batteries etc when I got home and everything seems to be working fine now.

I would just like to know if what I think happened is first of all possible and if so what can I do to prevent it happening in future?

I'm going to England for a week at the end of the month so it's booked in with campers NI for the 23rd so they can give it a full safety and diagnosis check and also explain to me properly how everything works.

I'm hoping this was a one time thing however if issues are found by campers NI I don't mind paying to get some of the systems updated (the van is 2008) so that everything works the way it should and is most importantly, safe for us to use.

I think it's definitely something I have done rather than the van itself. I just want to know what it is so I don't make the same mistake twice.

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[Itsmcb]

Only two possibilities really, dodgy connection to heater OR dodgy charger running flat out trying to replace power used by heater at start up. The webasto has no connection to the 230v supplied by the Generator. Just one thought, is your generator have a pure sine wave output? If not your charger might not like the current from the generator and complain

 

[Itsmcb]

Try starting the heater with the seat removed and watch for any sparks, smoke, glowing etc at any connections, fuses, switches etc, especially if you have any of those trip switches.

 

[Daveyfos07]

Hi buddy,

I think you could be right about the charger. From looking online it's the original charger which means it's 14 years old. Even when van is hooked up to house the battery only ever reads 12.7v max although when engine is started the battery reads 13.9v approximately.

I don't know what a pure sine wave output is. The generator I'm using is an impax im1900sig 1700w inverter that I got from screwfix.

I already tried running everything with the seat off and everything is running fine. I tried at the mx track and then tried again when I got home last night. There has been no further issues and everything seems to be working as it should.

However, even if this is an intermittent fault of some kind I still need to get it resolved as I don't want to keep heating on low at night if there is any chance of a dangerous issue occurring during the night

 

[Itsmcb]

Your generator output IS pure sine wave, this means it's the same as your house electric and is suitable for electronic appliances. If you only have 12.7 at the battery when it's hooked up to your house then that charger is not working, it should be giving out around 13.7v minimum. Is it actually turned on? Or is it fried?

 

[Daveyfos07]

I just googled my generator and it is a pure sine wave. So I think your right.

Yes, when plugged into the house the battery only reads 12.7v and it doesn't go up at all. With engine started the battery reads 13.9v.

I'm assuming the circuit from the alternator to the leisure battery is different than the EHU circuit and the alternator circuit isn't using the charger?

This would explain why last week we had van hooked up at the house for a week but ran out of power in middle of the night on the first night. If charger isn't working on EHU then the only charge the battery is getting is while I am driving. Is this correct?

So would the faulty charger have caused the sparking issue with the heating?

I did test the charger with a multimeter. When on EHU there is 240v going into it and then 13.9v coming out of it. I tested this by putting the multimeter prongs into the white plastic connectors coming out of either side of the charger.

Maybe the charger is OK but there is an issue with the cable running from the charger to the battery? It could have been nipped when seat was taken off or swiveled round. Or maybe the charger, despite what it's reading on the meter, has just had its day.

I apologise for all these newbie questions. It just seems like every time we go out in this van we discover something else we need to try and understand.

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[Daveyfos07]

As there is power going in to the charger and power coming out I'm assuming it is switched on. I can't see any switches anywhere that would turn it on or off.

 

[Itsmcb]

As there is power going in to the charger and power coming out I'm assuming it is switched on. I can't see any switches anywhere that would turn it on or off.

Ah, if there's 13.9 coming out of the charger but not getting to the battery then that does point to a fault somewhere between the two. Can you trace the cable along and inspect it all the way?

 

[Itsmcb]

Quite possibly you have a bad connection which would affect the charger power coming into the battery and the heater power leaving the battery so maybe a faulty fusebox or loose lead ?

 

[Nedge68]

If your Generator is 1700w and you were running a kettle and immersion and you battery charger which it would normally be, you are probably drawing to much power, the kettle an immersion will be OK but the battery charger might not, and could have been the cause of your smell/sparks.

 

[Nedge68]

Sorry Davey, just realised that you say the water is heated with Gas, some water heaters can use Gas and/or electric. As other Funsters have said you need to check the 12v connections, especially those going to the Diesel heater, when you start it up it will draw approx 10A (glow plug) dropping to 1-2A blower/fan.
What power rating was the Kettle you were using?

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[Daveyfos07]

You guys are awesome!

I'm at church this morning but when I get home ill check the leads going from charger to the battery and check nothing has been nipped or broken.

I'll need to find out how much power the charger draws when on EHU. That way I'll have an idea of what I can and cannot also have on at the same time. I know 1700w isn't very much but I did think it would be sufficient for a few nights at motocross. However, if the charger is drawing alot of power I should probably unplug it from under the sink when using the generator and plug it back in when using the EHU at the house.

When I get home ill track the cables and check for a break or a pinch and make sure the power from charger is getting to the battery.

I'll also start to unplug the charger when using the generator so we can have some more devices on.

I think what's happened is 240v was going into charger, I turned heating on and something has happened where the 240 from the generator has tried to start the heating and overloaded the charger.

 

[Daveyfos07]

I don't know what the power rating of kettle was. It was just a cheap one from home bargains.

Yes, the gas heats the water but it needs 12v to flick the immersion heater on. So I just have a wee switch with off, 50 degrees and 70 degrees. When I press the switch I hear a click and the immersion goes on and then the gas heats the water.

 

[Nedge68]

Your Leisure battery charger is unlikely to be greater than 10A. Which at 12V is 120W. This means that the load it has on the 230V/EHU/ Generator is 0.5A
If you load it with a kettle that could be like having 20 or 30 battery chargers plugged in. If you overload you generator the Pure Sine wave (Nice AC like at home) will not be a sine wave any more, if it is ‘clipping’ things go wrong.

 

[Daveyfos07]

I would say that's exactly what has happened.

I've overloaded the generator and the charger hasn't liked it very much.

I think I managed to kill everything before damage was done but I'll check everything over myself later on and get the guys at camper ni to give it a whole proper diagnostic check.

Note to self in future is when using generator, unplug the charger. Another valuable lesson learnt for when at the mx track lol

 

[Daveyfos07]

So, to check are these the correct steps:

1. Plug hook up into my house
2. Take multimeter reading at battery
3. If charger is working reading should be 13.7v or above (approximately)
4. If charger is not working reading will be 12v odds?
5. If reading is only 12v odds but 240 is going into charger and 13v is coming out of the charger (via white connectors) then there is a cable/connection issue between the charger and the battery?

If this is the case then only time battery is being charged is when driving which would make sense as we ran out of 12v power after a few hours last weekend even though van had been plugged into the house all week.

I'm assuming the charger when driving is a different circuit than when charger is on the hook up?

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[Itsmcb]

So, to check are these the correct steps:

1. Plug hook up into my house
2. Take multimeter reading at battery
3. If charger is working reading should be 13.7v or above (approximately)
4. If charger is not working reading will be 12v odds?
5. If reading is only 12v odds but 240 is going into charger and 13v is coming out of the charger (via white connectors) then there is a cable/connection issue between the charger and the battery?

If this is the case then only time battery is being charged is when driving which would make sense as we ran out of 12v power after a few hours last weekend even though van had been plugged into the house all week.

I'm assuming the charger when driving is a different circuit than when charger is on the hook up?

Yes to all that

 

[Itsmcb]

As above the charger will be using hardly any of the power available from your genny. Have a look at the label on the bottom of the kettle, it will tell you the wattage, maybe 1200 watts(1.2kw) but also maybe 1600w (1.6kw) or even 2200! which would overload your genny.

 

[Daveyfos07]

Great! Thankyou so much guys!

I'll check all this when I get home and report back. I'll take some photos as well.

This forum was definitely worth the £20 just to get this advice alone!

Thanks again

 

[Revolvor]

This forum was definitely worth the £20 just to get this advice alone!

It's the best £20 a year that I spend on my MH! It's amazing what the collective knowledge of the forum offers, as well as general chat and entertainment. The strict "Rules" add to the enjoyment.

 

[Daveyfos07]

Hi folks,



So did a bit of testing today.



I removed the seat and put multimeter on leisure battery. It read approx 12.7v.



I then started the engine and it read 13.9v approximately. So all good there.



I then hooked the van up to the house.

Checked the battery and it was still 12.7v.



Checked the lead going into the charger and it was showing 240v going in so all good there.



Checked the lead coming out of the charger and got a reading of 3v. Then Checked again and got a reading of 6v. Then Checked again and got a reading of 12.9v. So I realised there is something not right with the charger.



I unscrewed the charger box and lifted it out. Its model is a Airsilicii Ar600 fuseless switching power supply. When I lifted it out it was all burnt underneath hence the sparking and the burning smell. I have attached some pictures.



I now have the charger unplugged from the MCB under the sink and lifted it out of the van. The battery seems to charge OK still when engine is running so I've messaged campers ni with a video showing the problem and asked them to organise me a new or upgraded charger.



I have 3 questions if you don't mind answering.



1. Why did this happen? Did charger/switcher just get overloaded when I plugged on kettle and switched heating on? Was there just not enough power from the generator?



2. Is it safe to just leave everything unplugged and just allow the engine to charge the battery?



3. Would I be better lifting the battery out altogether and charging it fully with an external battery charger and if so does anyone know if these batteries are sealed or not so I know which setting to put my charger to as my charger is one from Halfords that has 2 settings, sealed or standard. It also says it is suitable for batteries up to 2L so does anyone know how big these platinum batteries are?

Thanks again everyone.
I will eventually not be a newbie anymore lol

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