New Iveco Daily Chassis, do you have a charging issue?? (1 Viewer)

[funflair]

Its not just a case of wildcamping - I would like to see solar keep up with the normal living requirements with the amount of sun at the average UK motorhome show. Or at the aires a lot of us go to some of which are shaded, or Shell island etc.

The ability to put a full charge in on the way or whilst travelling between is a major benefit and whoever decided that it wasnt clearly has little appreciation about how many of us use our Motorhomes.

We are seriously considering changing our Motorhome as I know many people on here are and would like to have the daily chassis with the ZF box but sorry would not buy one with a smart alternator unless it could be proved to be fit for purpose.

Jon

Jon now that Sue is president of the M----o owners club UK branch

Martin

 

[funflair]

I find that smart may just be too smart for me, not necessarily my grankids for example!
Unfortunately I am not able to really test this possible problem at the moment and my understanding is from a third party with a Flair that was built 6 months before mine and delivered to TW in early 2015 but only sold by them in the July and classed by the factory as series 1, mine is series 2. I know they changed several things so maybe this issue is addressed for me? I do not tend to wild camp and have 240 watts of solar which means that my leisure batteries are receiving better attention, the other Flair is lived for 3 days at a time with no EHU, Generator or solar and hits the road needing serious amps.
I am writing to the factory with the full details and asking them for a comment on their implementation?

Michael

I think a few on here will be interested in their response.

Martin

 

[sallylillian]

Update, response from factory!

Ralf sent me your e-mail in order to answer you.


In your motorhome - as you have also written - the latest alternator is fitted.


This means that it is equipped with the "Smart Alternator". It charges the battery depending on the driving condition or if enough capacity is available in the batteries it supports the engine with horsepower e. g. at full load in mountain rides. In this case also the leisure batteries are discharged and there may be a loss of capacity in the batteries.


If you don´t want to use this "Smart Alternator" please contact an Iveco workshop in order to deinstall the "Smart Alternator" (also called Smart program).


Then this operation will stop and the batteries are no longer discharged while driving.


We think Iveco will take over this work under warranty. If not, please send the invoice to your sales partner.


We hope this information will help you.

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[funflair]

Good explanation and good result Michael.

Martin

 

[jongood]

Have I misread it?

Or is it suggesting that the new iveco is capable of being a hybrid?

 

[jonandshell]

Stick a Battery to Battery Charger on it.
The B2B puts a load on the vehicle battery, the smart charging kicks in, leisure battery is charged.

Or is that too simple? It would be the only way of the smart charging couldn't be switched off.

The smart charging I suspect is a way of slightly reducing emissions. From what I read, the alternator is often switched on if the engine is on overrun. Therefore no fuel is wasted charging batteries. Less fuel burned equals less CO2.

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[denisejoe]

I was talking to an automotive electrical rep and he said they are now manufacturing a part to fool the smart alternator into giving a proper charge

joe

 

[funflair]

Stick a Battery to Battery Charger on it.
The B2B puts a load on the vehicle battery, the smart charging kicks in, leisure battery is charged.

Or is that too simple? It would be the only way of the smart charging couldn't be switched off.

The smart charging I suspect is a way of slightly reducing emissions. From what I read, the alternator is often switched on if the engine is on overrun. Therefore no fuel is wasted charging barrettes. Less fuel burned equals less CO2.

But does it? If the "smart alternator" still only works on overrun would it put enough in.

Martin

 

[jongood]

But thats not what the Iveco guy is saying.

or if enough capacity is available in the batteries it supports the engine with horsepower e. g. at full load in mountain rides.

This suggests to me that it can assist the engine. great if its true.

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[jonandshell]

But thats not what the Iveco guy is saying.

or if enough capacity is available in the batteries it supports the engine with horsepower e. g. at full load in mountain rides.

This suggests to me that it can assist the engine. great if its true.

Only if you really need an extra 3 hp! I would say fuel efficiency and emissions are the real motive behind smart charging systems.

I expect the algorithm ensures the alternator doesn't charge in a straight line when on a rolling road for instance!

 

[funflair]

Have I misread it?

Or is it suggesting that the new iveco is capable of being a hybrid?

I know what you mean Jon, but my interpretation was that it supports with horsepower by not using any for battery charging.

Martin

 

[sallylillian]

I know what you mean Jon, but my interpretation was that it supports with horsepower by not using any for battery charging.

Martin

That is how I read it, it is the reduction in hp drag from the alternator that makes the contribution. You also have to remember this is a German responding in English so the nuance can be open to misinterpretation. I have had further email exchanges which are not appropriate to share but they are now applying this fix to all Flair chassis arriving from Iveco. They are also looking at providing an instruction sheet for owners to give to their Iveco dealership as this is an unusual mod for them to be requested to do and it will save multiple queries across Europe. Interestingly I have also had an exchange with a guy from the Carthago Owners club, the factory also seem to be unaware of this problem at the moment!

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[jongood]

So you gain 3 hp but end up with flat leisure batteries. Do I detect a graduate at work here?

 

[sallylillian]

Crazy I know, but its about a reduction in emissions, however what I think is the real problem is that they (Iveco) sell a ton of these chassis all over Europe to MH manufacturers and no one thought to mention big time that this new feature would screw many motor home owners who rely on alternator input to supplement their charging regime.

 

[Littlewheels]

Very confusing, We have 2015 Concorde, ZF etc, I have observed that when off grid which is pretty normal for us the 3 Solar Panels cope well and the instrumentation shows both leisure and vehicle battery fully charged 13.2/13.4, however, when we have used Hookup because it was included in site costs, instrumentation all good until we unhooked and then we are warned of a low Vehicle battery!

I am informed not to worry and that it's a technical fault and that the reading is incorrect? It's always corrected itself and I do not worry about it,on my return to the UK I will of course expect Southdowns to address and correct the fault as I cannot believe Concorde would continue supplying new MHs with the same fault.

No expert but the signal is merely wrong?

Brian.

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[sallylillian]

Brian, your different problem aside, I have solar too so the smart charger issue is not immediately obvious just an awareness that when I stop after a long trip my batteries are less than when I started. It will be worth your while asking Southdown how Concorde handle the smart charger issue and dont be fobbed off.

 

[Littlewheels]

Michael ,will do but not back until April and I am sure you through Iveco will have resolved the problem.

 

[tonyidle]

The way I read the start of section 28 of that document additional batteries can be fitted to the vehicle but they must be the same 110Ah capacity as the starter battery. They should be wired in parallel with the starter battery with a means of preventing them trying to turn the starter motor but other than that, if they are partially discharged they will pull down the starter battery voltage so triggering the alternative to churn out some amps.

It may be described as smart but all alternators have voltage regulation to prevent the batteries being boiled dry so I can't see anything in the design that should prevent your leisure batteries being correctly charged.

I would look at how the leisure batteries are linked to the starter battery/alternator, if there is some sort of control box it may be faulty.

I agree. 'Smart' alternators controlled by the ECU have been installed on at least some (and maybe the majority of) vehicles for a long time - at least 10 years. 'Smart' generally means that when FULL power from the vehicle engine is required (pedal to the floor) the alternator will stop charging and in most cases the aircon will turn off too. I don't believe that alternator turn-off is an economy measure because once the battery or batteries are fully charged it turns near enough off anyway. And if they aren't fully charged then it's needed. It follows therefore that the addition of leisure batteries can continue as it always has. Conventional alternators (driven by auxiliary belt) cannot assist engine power - if they could they would be used as starters. Cars that do have eco systems (usually small petrol engine + battery assistance when accelerating) have a starter / generator unit within the flywheel (bell-) housing and do not have either alternator or starter mounted outside the engine. Some Smarty owners will be familiar with this arrangement.

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[gus-lopez]

I was talking to an automotive electrical rep and he said they are now manufacturing a part to fool the smart alternator into giving a proper charge

joe

So what is the point ? just so it appears that the emissions are lower .

 

[sallylillian]

Interesting news in this mornings Inbox. N+B have pro-actively contacted Iveco and they now want the names of each relevant owners Iveco servicing dealer so they can contact directly with the instructions for disabling the smart charging in the ECU. Excellent result so far. The sort of service I expect, its how they put things right, not that they go wrong necessarily, is my judgement.

 

[jongood]

A brilliant result. well done.

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[Ranger]

Update, response from factory!

Ralf sent me your e-mail in order to answer you.


In your motorhome - as you have also written - the latest alternator is fitted.


This means that it is equipped with the "Smart Alternator". It charges the battery depending on the driving condition or if enough capacity is available in the batteries it supports the engine with horsepower e. g. at full load in mountain rides. In this case also the leisure batteries are discharged and there may be a loss of capacity in the batteries.


If you don´t want to use this "Smart Alternator" please contact an Iveco workshop in order to deinstall the "Smart Alternator" (also called Smart program).


Then this operation will stop and the batteries are no longer discharged while driving.


We think Iveco will take over this work under warranty. If not, please send the invoice to your sales partner.


We hope this information will help you.

Sorry to bring up an old thread but recently noticed a phenomena with our Iveco. As above I had been told that the smart alternator would produce power under certain conditions which I thought improbable as the alternator looks stock. Anyway on a recent trip to Scotland on a steep section of highland road I gave her flat to the floor at around 2000 revs for a short way, something which is rare with the torque of the 3L on a 3.5ton PVC. At this time there was a smell of burnt rubber so suggesting that the alternator was indeed providing some power input but can't imagine it was of much use, 3hp has been suggested. Just wondered if it could pull current back through the BtoB charger?

 

[sallylillian]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but recently noticed a phenomena with our Iveco. As above I had been told that the smart alternator would produce power under certain conditions which I thought improbable as the alternator looks stock. Anyway on a recent trip to Scotland on a steep section of highland road I gave her flat to the floor at around 2000 revs for a short way, something which is rare with the torque of the 3L on a 3.5ton PVC. At this time there was a smell of burnt rubber so suggesting that the alternator was indeed providing some power input but can't imagine it was of much use, 3hp has been suggested. Just wondered if it could pull current back through the BtoB charger?

It is not the alternator that is different per se but the ECU controlling it directs it when to charge and when not to. In principle it will charge when the engine is under load, but stop doing so once your foot comes off the throttle and also whilst braking, this is defined under a dealer adjustable profile in the ECU, hence getting this "switched off" ensures constant charging (assuming there is demand) to the leisure batteries by whatever means the motorhome manufacturer employed. As far as your comment on reverse feed I am a tad lost?

 

[Pausim]

I know nothing about Iveco but it seems to me that most manufactures are fitting smart alternators to help achieve Euro6. It surprises me that Iveco dealers would be prepared to disable this feature for fear of being accused of “defeat programming”. Have I missed an explanation somewhere in this complex debate?

I do know that on my Merc based motorhome with Euro6 and smart alternator the leisure battery charging started off reasonably but seemed to drop out before they were fully charged, presumably because the engine battery was fully charged and the alternator went into eco mode. I solved this fairly easily with a battery to battery charger. They market these devices specifically to work with smart alternators without interfering with the Euro6 specifications. I suspect the motorhome manufacturers will soon catch up with the new technology and start fitting these chargers, probably as an additional cost extra.

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[Ranger]

As far as your comment on reverse feed I am a tad lost?

Me too but that is what Iveco say, it just does not seem practical with a serpentine belt.

 

[funflair]

Me too but that is what Iveco say, it just does not seem practical with a serpentine belt.

I was reading about this just a couple of days ago but still can't remember it all, BUT I dont think that it says anywhere that the alternator gives power, they do describe in the literature how it woks on overrun and they mention something about 3bhp worth of engine braking which ups to 4bhp worth with the 75% alternator efficiency taken into account, I will ty to find the article.

Martin

 

[sallylillian]

I was reading about this just a couple of days ago but still can't remember it all, BUT I dont think that it says anywhere that the alternator gives power, they do describe in the literature how it woks on overrun and they mention something about 3bhp worth of engine braking which ups to 4bhp worth with the 75% alternator efficiency taken into account, I will ty to find the article.

Martin

That's outside my comprehension Martin, Janet & John please?

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[funflair]

That's outside my comprehension Martin, Janet & John please?

Hi Michael

As you know your standard smart alternator only worked on overrun ie when you were off the throttle so it wasn't using fuel it was using kinetic or stored energy in the vehicles speed and weight/mass, it also wasn't taking into account the fact that you had big capacity batteries in the garage that needed power it was only concerned with maintaining the starter battery because that was the way it was programmed.

The article I was reading and I can't find it now was describing the amount extra braking force the alternator provided when in charge mode ie off the throttle so wanting to slow down anyway.

I can't search for the article any longer at the moment as I have a van to wash and get ready for service and MOT tomorrow.

Martin

 

[sallylillian]

Hi Michael

As you know your standard smart alternator only worked on overrun ie when you were off the throttle so it wasn't using fuel it was using kinetic or stored energy in the vehicles speed and weight/mass, it also wasn't taking into account the fact that you had big capacity batteries in the garage that needed power it was only concerned with maintaining the starter battery because that was the way it was programmed.

The article I was reading and I can't find it now was describing the amount extra braking force the alternator provided when in charge mode ie off the throttle so wanting to slow down anyway.

I can't search for the article any longer at the moment as I have a van to wash and get ready for service and MOT tomorrow.

Martin

Thanks Martin I now understand, but technically I thought that it's retardent ability was proportionate to increased charging hence the desire to switch it off?

 

[funflair]

Thanks Martin I now understand, but technically I thought that it's retardent ability was proportionate to increased charging hence the desire to switch it off?

Hi Michael

This was what I was reading, it wasn't IVECO at all,

https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/51046-spotlight-on-smart-alternators

Yes the retardant ability is proportionate to charge level so is only switched on for off throttle/braking, thereby taking no power from the engine.

Martin

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