Lithium setup (1 Viewer)

[Motorhomer14]

Hi Guys, I will be installing a Lithium battery from Roamer in a few months so thought I would show what I will be doing, see if I have missed anything. I will be installing B2B direct from starter battery to Leisure battery Solar also direct to Leisure battery. I have a EBL-211 distribution system on the van, wiring diagram below. From the top I will be doing the following
Leisure battery connecting to stay
+ Starter Battery to be removed
D+ input remove
D+ Point remove
+ sensor leisure I dont think this is used
3 negatives to stay
Lumberg MSFQ/ 10-way not touching to stay as is
+ Frost protect stay
Connection neg to pump stay
+ pump stay
Negative SB for fridge - Still not sure expect this will be removed
Negative Fridge - again not sure why this is linked to above
+ refrigerator stay
+ SB starter for Fridge remove
Rest of outputs will stay
Solar connections removed
I think that's it. The intention is to use the EBL as a distribution box only. battery will charge through the B2B direct to starter battery and solar. Any EHU charging if needed I will get a Lithium charger. What do you all think?

 

[TCG]

Bloody hell

 

[monzer]

Yup all looks good. Exactly how I would have done it. Wait, what?

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[Motorhomer14]

This is only really disconnecting the starter battery from the EDL did not realise it was so complex to see.

 

[Ingwe]

Sorry, not laughing at you; just a reflection on my own lack of knowledge, skill, understanding..........etc.
Good luck. Certain constructive posters will be here soon.

 

[Jake vE]

I have an older EBL but with a similar wiring diagram. When I moved over to Lithium, all I removed was the fuse from the starter battery to the EBL to charge the leisure battery as I had run a larger cable from the starter to the B2B charger. Just wondering why you need to remove the D+ connections?

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[Motorhomer14]

May be I worded it wrong. I have run B2B on 16mm like you said from starter to leisure bypassing EBL for charging

Removing starter fuse will remove the starter charging supply which I will be doing

The D+ was not sure on, which is one of the reasons for question. It will change over the fridge relay. I expect this will not be an issue as long as nothing internal goes wrong to get a feed back to leisure battery.

Also was not sure yet on the negatives as they are all connected together from what I have read. But the B2B is an isolating controller, reason why I was wondering about the fridge negatives

 

[Motorhomer14]

I have an older EBL but with a similar wiring diagram. When I moved over to Lithium, all I removed was the fuse from the starter battery to the EBL to charge the leisure battery as I had run a larger cable from the starter to the B2B charger. Just wondering why you need to remove the D+ connections?

Did you also remove the 240v supply to the EBL to stop mains charging

 

[Jake vE]

Did you also remove the 240v supply to the EBL to stop mains charging

No I didn't, I changed the setting on the back of the EBL to gel setting and installed a switch in the 240v supply feed to the EBL. I figured if the battery requires mains charging I can switch it on if on hook up as a back up as with solar and good B2B charging I didn't see the need to get a specific lithium mains charger too

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[Motorhomer14]

No I didn't, I changed the setting on the back of the EBL to gel setting and installed a switch in the 240v supply feed to the EBL. I figured if the battery requires mains charging I can switch it on if on hook up as a back up as with solar and good B2B charging I didn't see the need to get a specific lithium mains charger too

Good idea, I will do the same. I believe the EBL output is 14.4v. Thanks

 

[Motorhomer14]

Thinking about your setup leaving the D+ connected may be better. This way the fridge relay will switch over to starter battery when engine is running removing the load on the Lithium battery. Then the B2B will be putting more charge into the Lithium battery rather that charging and supplying the fridge. Makes sense now. I think the fridge can pull up to 6 amps so this will be lost charging current.

 

[Jake vE]

May be I worded it wrong. I have run B2B on 16mm like you said from starter to leisure bypassing EBL for charging

Removing starter fuse will remove the starter charging supply which I will be doing

The D+ was not sure on, which is one of the reasons for question. It will change over the fridge relay. I expect this will not be an issue as long as nothing internal goes wrong to get a feed back to leisure battery.

Also was not sure yet on the negatives as they are all connected together from what I have read. But the B2B is an isolating controller, reason why I was wondering about the fridge negatives

I see what you mean about the D+ connection. My EBL isn't as complicated as yours. Mine takes power for the fridge when the engine is running (D+ live) from the leisure battery, not the starter battery. If you removed the D+ you could still get the fridge to run on the LB when the engine is running as long as you have a fuse in the AES connection

Thinking about your setup leaving the D+ connected may be better. This way the fridge relay will switch over to starter battery when engine is running removing the load on the Lithium battery. Then the B2B will be putting more charge into the Lithium battery rather that charging and supplying the fridge. Makes sense now. I think the fridge can pull up to 6 amps so this will be lost charging current.

You won't be able to do this if you are bypassing the charging supply to the EBL from the starter battery as this will be disconnected won't it?

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[Motorhomer14]

I see what you mean about the D+ connection. My EBL isn't as complicated as yours. Mine takes power for the fridge when the engine is running (D+ live) from the leisure battery, not the starter battery. If you removed the D+ you could still get the fridge to run on the LB when the engine is running as long as you have a fuse in the AES connection


You won't be able to do this if you are bypassing the charging supply to the EBL from the starter battery as this will be disconnected won't it?

The SB to fridge is supplied separately. Further down the bottom pin 7 has a SB connection so it should work.

I agree they do over complicate all this but at least with this system they provide a Schematic, I had a Sargent before and could not get any data like this

 

[Pausim]

What size B2B are you planning on using? Provided the B2B is within the capacity of the EBL and existing wiring you can use the existing wiring and connections. Usually the limit is 50A though I see from your diagram you have 30A fuses. Simply disconnect the engine battery feed from the EBL and use this to feed the B2B instead. Put a new wire from the B2B output to the EBL, where you removed the original engine battery connection from. Other than tapping into one of the existing D+ feeds to trigger the B2B the EBL can continue to operate as normal.

If you want to use a new mains charger simply pull the output fuse to the leisure battery (20A), this leaves the EBL charger still available for the trickle charging of the engine battery. This is the advice I got from Udo Lang at Schaudt.

Dear Paul,

the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.

Best Regards

Udo.

On my more recent motorhome I have not bothered to use a separate LiFePO4 charger, the gel setting is near enough. It might slightly under charge the battery but when on hook up I don’t care. It does no harm. The B2B is the important bit for when there is no ehu.

This is the Votronic wiring guide I used when I had an EBL, it should work for other B2Bs as long as they are not too powerful.

 

[Motorhomer14]

What size B2B are you planning on using? Provided the B2B is within the capacity of the EBL and existing wiring you can use the existing wiring and connections. Usually the limit is 50A though I see from your diagram you have 30A fuses. Simply disconnect the engine battery feed from the EBL and use this to feed the B2B instead. Put a new wire from the B2B output to the EBL, where you removed the original engine battery connection from. Other than tapping into one of the existing D+ feeds to trigger the B2B the EBL can continue to operate as normal.

If you want to use a new mains charger simply pull the output fuse to the leisure battery (20A), this leaves the EBL charger still available for the trickle charging of the engine battery. This is the advice I got from Udo Lang at Schaudt.

Dear Paul,

the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.

Best Regards

Udo.

On my more recent motorhome I have not bothered to use a separate LiFePO4 charger, the gel setting is near enough. It might slightly under charge the battery but when on hook up I don’t care. It does no harm. The B2B is the important bit for when there is no ehu.

This is the Votronic wiring guide I used when I had an EBL, it should work for other B2Bs as long as they are not too powerful.
View attachment 495363

Thanks for input, I have a Victron B2B rated at 30A, does not need D+ as it has smart turn on. The EBL wiring is very small for this amount of current if I want to reduce the voltage drop to below 3%.
Seeing as my starter battery is almost next to my Leisure batter it would be easy to run 16mm cable from battery to battery via the B2B
I have an Adria Twin van so have the battery under the passenger seat.
I think you and Jake have good point about still using EBL as EHU supply. I will have 200 aH lithium so will only need to top it up on EHU is I have no sun for long time and we have not been moving around.

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[autorouter]

There is no need to remove the D+ or D+ Point. These perform useful functions, switching the fridge 12V power on and the awning light off when the engine starts.

The 'split charge relay' (Battery Cutoff Relay) that previously connected the starter and leisure batteries will still switch from the D+. The trick is to pull the 30A fuse from the starter battery wire. Then nothing will happen when the D+ switches the split charge relay. Or you could disconnect the starter battery wire if you really want to be sure.

Best to leave the fridge wiring intact. The 'Negative, refrigerator' wire and 'Negative SB for refrigerator' wire are the independent negative path for the fridge 12V power.

The independent positive path for the fridge 12V power is '+SB for refrigerator' wire, 15A fuse, fridge relay, '+ refrigerator' wire.

If you want to stop the EBL internal charger from charging the leisure battery, you could pull the 'Int Charger' fuse. The charger will then still trickle-charge the starter battery while on EHU. Also the starter battery voltage will still be shown on the display panel, and the mains indicator on the display panel will still function. This is a slightly better alternative than simply pulling out the mains plug pf the EBL.

'+ sensor, leisure area battery' wire is vitally important, leave it alone. First, it senses the leisure battery voltage along a dedicated thin wire with a 2A fuse. That's how the display panel gets the voltage measurement. Next, it provides the trigger power for the main ON/OFF power relay for all the habitation loads. The ON/OFF switch on the display panel won't work if this sense wire is removed.

 

[autorouter]

But the B2B is an isolating controller, reason why I was wondering about the fridge negatives

The B2B has isolated negatives, because some applications (marine etc) require it. In a motorhome, all the negatives are connected together, and to the chassis. That's the only way you can charge both batteries from an alternator. It's fine to connect both negatives of the B2B together if the negatives of the MH are not isolated.

 

[Motorhomer14]

There is no need to remove the D+ or D+ Point. These perform useful functions, switching the fridge 12V power on and the awning light off when the engine starts.

The 'split charge relay' (Battery Cutoff Relay) that previously connected the starter and leisure batteries will still switch from the D+. The trick is to pull the 30A fuse from the starter battery wire. Then nothing will happen when the D+ switches the split charge relay. Or you could disconnect the starter battery wire if you really want to be sure.

Best to leave the fridge wiring intact. The 'Negative, refrigerator' wire and 'Negative SB for refrigerator' wire are the independent negative path for the fridge 12V power.

The independent positive path for the fridge 12V power is '+SB for refrigerator' wire, 15A fuse, fridge relay, '+ refrigerator' wire.

If you want to stop the EBL internal charger from charging the leisure battery, you could pull the 'Int Charger' fuse. The charger will then still trickle-charge the starter battery while on EHU. Also the starter battery voltage will still be shown on the display panel, and the mains indicator on the display panel will still function. This is a slightly better alternative than simply pulling out the mains plug pf the EBL.

'+ sensor, leisure area battery' wire is vitally important, leave it alone. First, it senses the leisure battery voltage along a dedicated thin wire with a 2A fuse. That's how the display panel gets the voltage measurement. Next, it provides the trigger power for the main ON/OFF power relay for all the habitation loads. The ON/OFF switch on the display panel won't work if this sense wire is removed.

Hi, thanks for the reply and the information this is a great help.

I don't know why I mentioned the + Sensor cable as I knew it was from the battery via a cut off switch on passenger side and is vital for the EBL to switch on. Thanks for reminding me.

I agree I made a mistake about the D+ this will be better to leave in place as you and Jake have said. Switching this to engine charging will mean I will have full B2B charging at the battery. If I disconnect this the fridge will always be running on the leisure battery so will be taking some of the charge supply when engine is running.

If I pull the internal 20A charging fuse I can't see the EBL will still charge the started battery on EHU. The Fuse is inline before the Starter supply line. I like the idea of using the EBL on GEL to charge the Lithium if needed and switching off when not needed. This will also mean I have the ability to charge the starter battery if needed. Only thing I would loose as you mentioned will be the EHU indication on the panel which is not to much an issue.

As for the B2B isolation this is the one issue I am not sure about. Will a common negative on an isolation B2B cause the readings within the B2B to be incorrect. If they are reading the negative path internally on a shunt this will not see all the current as it will be split between the B2B path and the EBL path. This may not be an issue as it probably only detects voltage levels.

I have the Victron Orion-tr Smart. If anyone has this working on there van with a common ground would be nice to know.

So far this is looking to be an easy setup so hopefully should have the B2B fitted over next few weeks. Lithium battery not due till July

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[Raul]

I charge from alternator with isolated negative. The hole leisure rear electrics are all isolated from vehicle negative.

 

[Pausim]

If I pull the internal 20A charging fuse I can't see the EBL will still charge the started battery on EHU.

The advice I received came from Schaudt the EBL manufacturer (#14). There should be a second smaller fused connection to the engine battery. If in doubt email Udo.Lang@schaudt.gmbh.

 

[Motorhomer14]

I will have a look. I was only going by the Schematic which is for this EBL-211. In the ends its not a major issue but would be a nice touch to have starter battery charging with out the Lithium when I am in storage. Thanks for your help on this one

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[pete4x4]

All you need to remember is whatever you do make sure the charging of the starter battery cannot trigger the smart turn on and flatten the starter battery.
I ujsed the D+ signal to enable the B2B to prevent this.
I believe I read on the Victron Community forums that connecting -ves together on an isolated Orion just makes it a non-isolated and you wasted your money buying a isolated version!!

 

[Motorhomer14]

Hi Pete, This is a smart turn on system working on voltage detection level to turn on/off. I believe you can attach a switch to it to have manual on/off.

As for the -VES connected together I assume they are talking about the input negative from starter battery and output negative to leisure battery. If so they yes connecting these together will then not be an isolating controller. This is my point. If I leave the negatives from the EBL connected together including the fridge negatives then this will not run as an isolating converter.

I am not too worried about what way it runs as long as the internal sensing voltages still work and it still detects correct voltage to turn on/off.

I might give Victron a call see what they say

 

[pete4x4]

Yes I have the same, however the smart turn on cant distinguish between alternator output and a battery charger beit solar or mains so if any of your other sources can trickle charge the starter battery to a level that causes the orion to turn on it will and take 30A out your starter battery. So just be aware that can happen.

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[Motorhomer14]

OK interesting to know. I think you can connect the right hand H terminal to D+ as a remove turn on off or put a switch in. It is supplied with a shorting link. If you pull this out does it turn off. This way when you are on site you can ensure what you are saying will not happen.

As for connecting the negatives together I have checked Victon community forum and its a bit 50/50 on if it works this way. I have emailed Victron support so it will be interesting to see what they say

 

[Pausim]

Yes I have the same, however the smart turn on cant distinguish between alternator output and a battery charger beit solar or mains so if any of your other sources can trickle charge the starter battery to a level that causes the orion to turn on it will and take 30A out your starter battery. So just be aware that can happen.

I agree. Far safer to use D+ to activate B2B.

 

[Motorhomer14]

Looks like this can be done see page 20 the this document. <Broken link removed>

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[autorouter]

If I pull the internal 20A charging fuse I can't see the EBL will still charge the started battery on EHU. The Fuse is inline before the Starter supply line.

Yes you're right about that. If the solar connector is free, it's ideal for connecting a BatteryMaster that trickle-charges the starter battery from the leisure battery. Alternatively use the solar connector to feed in a mains trickle-charger, Optimate or CTEK for example.

I charge from alternator with isolated negative. The hole leisure rear electrics are all isolated from vehicle negative.

It's possible to build a motorhome like that. However if the motorhome starts off with a split charge relay, charging both batteries, then the negatives are all connected together. If the split charge relay is upgraded to a B2B, it's a lot of work to separate the negatives, and it's unnecessary anyway.

 

[Motorhomer14]

Ok guys so just herd back from Victron. Its fine to connect up the B2B I have with common ground, it will work all ok just looses the isolation. I know this means I could have got an isolation B2B but cant change that know. So all good to go.