Lithium batteries ?

[Willeee]

Hi all,
We are interested in lithium battery/ies for the motorhome we have just bought, and which has battery problems. It is a 16yr old Hymer Exsis SK, and has 2 budget 110Ah batteries, an Electroblock, and B2B. On our 2nd short outing in it, we returned from a bike ride to the carbon monoxide alarm going off, and a strong sulphurous smell inside, one battery was very hot, as was the Electroblock, we were hooked up also. Being new to all this, we obviously need a diagnosis, and new battery/ies. Do you think that a 100Ah lithium battery would be suitable .... very expensive, but maybe safer, and worth it longer term. ( We have seen a Napok 200Ah lithium battery on Amazon, for £899, but have no idea re it's quality etc?)
We are getting the van checked on Wednesday, 2nd September, and hope to then buy the new battery, so we can use the motorhome.
We look forward to hearing from anyone who has any ideas please.

 

[Off da Grid]

Not wanting to scare you but you need to check/get checked that your existing setup will work with lithium most older vans will not be able to cope with the demands of a lithium without some modifications.

 

[two]

The most effective thing to do is probably to simply get two more new batteries.
Your choice will be driven by what your B2B and charger can support in terms of battery type.
I'd get Gel if they are covered (I doubt that Lithium will be) because they will tolerate greater discharge than conventional Lead-Acid.
If weight is an issue, you could just get one.

 

[Spriddler]

Don't be put off by your current (!) experience. It's 99% likely that there is 'merely' an electrical fault, overcharging the batteries or a short circuit which the dealer should put right.
Unless you plan to stay off grid a great deal and parked for a couple of days and have a fairly heavy usage (e.g. hours of T.V.) it isn't strictly necessary to go to the expense of Lithium.

 

[Lenny HB]

If you go for Lithium regardless of what the supplier says about them being a drop in replacement they are not if you want them to function to their full performance.
You will need a new mains charger, if your B2B is more than a few years old you will need a new one and if you have solar panels you will properly need a new regulator.

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[DuxDeluxe]

If you go for Lithium regardless of what the supplier says about them being a drop in replacement they are not if you want them to function to their full performance.
You will need a new mains charger, if your B2B is more than a few years old you will need a new one and if you have solar panels you will properly need a new regulator.

Yes, you need a charger that has a lithium profile to avoid damaging the battery.

 

[autorouter]

What model of Elektroblock is it? What is the make and model of the B2B? Do you have or intend to get solar panels?

 

[Willeee]

The Elektroblock is ELB 99 ..... not sure re B2B .... there are solar panels already fitted.
Many thanks for your interest and help !!

 

[Littlewheels]

If you go for Lithium regardless of what the supplier says about them being a drop in replacement they are not if you want them to function to their full performance.
You will need a new mains charger, if your B2B is more than a few years old you will need a new one and if you have solar panels you will properly need a new regulator.

Absolutely, however, if your budget allows for this you will always have a big smile on your face knowing that “ l have the power” l can stay where l want for as long as l want and have the power to do what l want
I have yet to meet anyone or read about anyone that has regretted getting Lithium.
Check out Sterling.

 

[Richard n Ann]

knowing that “ l have the power” l can stay where l want for as long as l want and have the power to do what l want

We can do that with a £170 gel battery. In fact we've been off grid since the 3rd of August

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[autorouter]

The EBL 99 has a small switch to change the mains charger profile between lead-acid (Blei-Saure) and Gel (Blei-Gel) battery chemistries. I think it was originally fitted with gels. Is the switch correctly positioned for lead-acid batteries?

 

[Littlewheels]

We can do that with a £170 gel battery. In fact we've been off grid since the 3rd of August

l have no doubt it suits you but it’s a lifestyle thing, we are all very different and l very much doubt we are all the same, what’s normal in terms of expectations in facilities to each of us is very different, we wouldn’t last more than a matter of hours with your set up.
Each to their own.

 

[Richard n Ann]

We really need to know the ops power usage before offering any useful advice

 

[Raul]

We can do that with a £170 gel battery. In fact we've been off grid since the 3rd of August

That until you try lithium. You will beat yourself why you haven’t done it sooner. The efficiency on charging and discharging is almost 100% on low rate, no sulphation, no float energy los and Your level of comfort goes up, and lpg fill up will go down.

 

[Wh05apk]

We can do that with a £170 gel battery. In fact we've been off grid since the 3rd of August

In fairness, this time of year, with solar any battery would probably be sufficient, the test will come mid winter when trying to get 3-4 days off grid.

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[Jim]

the test will come mid winter when trying to get 3-4 days off grid.

Of course a solar setup needs the sun. But as we found last October when we were marooned in Oxford without a hookup for a whole month. Our Lithium battery can suck in energy fast, as much as it can get; so when is does pop out from behind the clouds we charge quickly.

We were often at a 95% plus charge by the time it got dark, and that was with a 27inch iMac plugged in for 18 hours each day! When the sun refused to appear for long enough; a 15 min run of the engine topped us up. Our engine has what they call an Ambulance Modification. An active idle management system and It can sit an idle for hours without harm, but with Lithium and a big alternator, 15 minutes is enough

We have 360 watts of panel and two 100AH Sterling batteries.

 

[Two on Tour]

We can do that with a £170 gel battery. In fact we've been off grid since the 3rd of August

Spanish sunshine helps a lot though Richard.

 

[Wh05apk]

Of course a solar setup needs the sun. But as we found last October when we were marooned in Oxford without a hookup for a whole month. Our Lithium battery can suck in energy fast, as much as it can get so when is does pop out from behind the clouds we charged quickly and we were often at a 95% plus charge the time it got dark, and that was with a 27inch iMac plugged in for 18 hours each day! When it didn't a 15 min run of the engine topped us up. (Our engine has what they call an Ambulance Modification) It can sit an idle for hours without harm).

We have 360 watts of panel and two 100AH Sterling batteries.

That's my point, this time of year with solar topping up almost anything will work, outside of the summer months, that is where decent battery storage is more important, all down to expected usage, if only summer use, or always on ehu, then just get a cheap lead acid, if not using ehu, particularly outside if summer storage is more and more important.

 

[PeteH]

It`s a question of your camping style IMV.?. If you are looking at lots of time "off grid" then the cost of a Lithium battery pack, new charging regime, solar panel/charger/inverter etc; might be tolerable, (getting on for £1500 to 2K by the time you are sorted I would Guess?). However If you use sites and/or can access EHU, your current kit assuming it is working and a couple of new GEL? batteries, are not as likely to break the bank.

Edit. I had a similar dilemma, looking at fitting rechargeable gas system, decided in the end that for the use it gets, and no longer having access to Europe, where it would be convenient, It would take me about 2 years to break even!.

 

[funflair]

I think PeterH is spot on above, except I think his costings are way too low, OK I suppose it comes down to how much storage you want/need.

The thing with LiFePO4 technology is the energy density, one of our Super-B batteries has twice the capacity the capacity of one of our old Exide 80ah Gel's for the same weight, the Gel we could use possibly 50ah of that but the LiFePO4 I can basically use all of that power so 3 times as much and what's more the Lithium is rated continuous discharge of 480 amps so 120amps for a coffee machine off the inverter is nothing

For the same weight as a decent lead acid set up you can now build a mini power station in your van and run 240v as if you are plugged in, bigger vans with the roof space can have 1000watts of solar which should give over 60 amps of charging and lithium installs of 800ah are now viable.

So back to the OP, what does he want from the system? if it's lights and TV and occasional inverter good flooded lead acid or Gel take some beating "bang for buck"

Martin

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[Richard n Ann]

The way I look at it is whatever battery you have, if you've got decent solar, the battery only ever has to last from sunset to dawn. The sun gets up every morning, Guaranteed, even if cloudy you still get a charge. We get 2 to 3 amps charge in white cloud. That would still charge the battery in 6 hours.
If thick black cloud all day just means we couldn't have the TV on all night bonus

 

[Pausim]

Yes, you need a charger that has a lithium profile to avoid damaging the battery.

Under charging a lithium battery (LiFePO4) does no harm at all. I have not changed my mains charger which has a gel output of 14.3V which achieves 95% + charge. When on a mains hook up achieving less than 100% does not matter one jot to me. It is when you are camping without ehu you need a full battery and the important bits of kit are the B2B and solar. If your B2B and solar regulator have lithium profiles you are probably home and dry with lithium.

 

[Raul]

It’s costing are not low at all. Not everyone needs 800ah LFP. And you don’t have to go for the super duper discharge C rate. A decent 0,2-0,3C rate discharge covers most of needs. For short bursts 1C is ok. But if you need more that increasing capacity is cheaper than super C rate batts. Any high discharge shortens it’s life. In power tools you have 25C discharge cells and get 600-1000 cycles. A LFP at 0,2C will leave in excess of 4000 cycles, not to mention that is bad to keep it at 100% SOC for any length of time.

 

[funflair]

Under charging a lithium battery (LiFePO4) does no harm at all. I have not changed my mains charger which has a gel output of 14.3V which achieves 95% + charge. When on a mains hook up achieving less than 100% does not matter one jot to me. It is when you are camping without ehu you need a full battery and the important bits of kit are the B2B and solar. If your B2B and solar regulator have lithium profiles you are probably home and dry with lithium.

I read that they actually like to be stored or held at less than 100%, ours has only been plugged in once since we picked it up and that was just to make sure everything worked, driving puts in over 90 amps on top of solar up to 30amps so you don't have to go far to be fully charged.

 

[Raul]

The only person likes LFP kept at 100% SOC is the ones that make them and the ones that sell. The informed experienced users Rarely go above 90-95% SOC. The only time you go to a 100% SOC is it’s first charge, to bring the cells at 3,6-3,65v to form the SEI layer. After that, the less you visit the 100% SOC, the better. This is not new, there are off griders with LFP for more that 8-10 years in service. Little degradation in capacity if kept out of extremities. Lots of info on this if you look in the right place.

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[DuxDeluxe]

Under charging a lithium battery (LiFePO4) does no harm at all. I have not changed my mains charger which has a gel output of 14.3V which achieves 95% + charge. When on a mains hook up achieving less than 100% does not matter one jot to me. It is when you are camping without ehu you need a full battery and the important bits of kit are the B2B and solar. If your B2B and solar regulator have lithium profiles you are probably home and dry with lithium.

By charger I meant the B2B which is how my conventional batteries are charged using this as the vehicle has a smart alternator


Manufacturer states not suitable for Lithium batteries as it will continuously charge

 

[Nasher]

Reading this thread makes me wonder if my solution is still a good one:

Cheap 110ah leisure battery
Durite Voltage Sensitive relay (split charging)
Victron intelligent charger for when EHU available
Small generator when EHU not available

A very simple solution that works for me

 

[Lenny HB]

In fairness, this time of year, with solar any battery would probably be sufficient, the test will come mid winter when trying to get 3-4 days off grid.

Yes and he kept quite about being in southern Spain.

 

[Wissel]

Depends on your power usage as to whether LiFePO4 is worth it IMO.

If you use the van a lot, use a lot of electric and often don't have EHU (or don't drive most days) - no brainer if the cost is acceptable.
If you get away at weekends, maybe have a TV on for a few hours a night and can charge the rest of the week via solar - I don't think I'd bother. A better B2B charger, more solar, maybe an extra battery - much more cost effective to likely achieve the same.

Getting the best out of LiFePO4 isn't (usually) a simple or cheap process. Chargers have been mentioned, but it could mean fitting/having fitted beefier wiring and other things as well to do it properly and these add up.

To give an example, our setup uses a 400Ah battery, which along with it's BMS costs around £2000.
If I then add the cost of the chargers, solar, protection and wiring - around £4k total.

We use a lot of power and are fulltime. Without LiFePO4 our way of using our van wouldn't be possible, so the cost was well worth it for us.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Yes and he kept quite about being in southern Spain.

We'd be ok with a 40w panel in Spain, that's what we had before (portable), I got the 150w one so it would be ok in the UK or on a freak Spanish day

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