Leisure Battery Upgrade - Autotrail V-line currently only 72Ah

[Kannon Fodda]

In their wisdom Autotrail fit only a 75Ah leisure battery to the V-line (and from the data sheet I think it's only 72Ah @ K20. That won't be enough when I get to fit a moderate (say 500W) inverter so I can recharge a 500W e-bike battery, and power a laptop, and still have something left for normal use?

As a single battery, what can replace the battery with? I suspect I would have to get a replacement box (housing) to suit anything larger. I think Lithium would prove to be an extravagance, at least for now, even if it were compatible, but should I look at Gel, or simply a larger lead acid?

Note the van is small, so I don't have the space for duplication of batteries.

Current is a Banner Energy Bull 955 51. I'm not sure if that is a lead acid or possibly AGM. The Banner tech data sheets don't spell it out clearly. It's coupled with a Sargent EC176 PSU charger thing, and again the Sargent manuals (can find one for the EC175, but not EC176) don't make it that clear as to the charging profile, saying only that I should keep the same.

I do have 100W solar which will help to top up during the day, but suspect for the less summery months if not on EHU, or even in sunny conditions when I hunt the shade of trees (I like to stay on wooded sites) I'm going to need some form of B2B to get more from the alternator than the Sargent will allow on shorter runs?

 

[tonka]

Quick email to Sargent may be worthwhile,., They are pretty helpful.

It's a poor show, all that money on a van like that to fit such a low amp battery..

This is in the 175 manual.. So charger could be limited.


"For optimum performance and safety it is essential that only a proprietary brand LEISURE battery is used with a typical capacity of 75 to 120 Ah (Ampere / hours). "

 

[Kevan]

We have the v-line 634 sport, and have fitted two 130amp batteries go under the bunk length ways on had to by a bigger bat box (already had one) still lots of nooks and crannies for goodies including 28 gas canisters for the camping stove and couple of other bits including towels

 

[Kannon Fodda]

This is in the 175 manual.. So charger could be limited.

"For optimum performance and safety it is essential that only a proprietary brand LEISURE battery is used with a typical capacity of 75 to 120 Ah (Ampere / hours). "

Yep that wording seems fairly standard, but doesn't correspond that I could have ordered the vehicle with 2 leisure batteries which even if they matched the current paltry one, would have reached over 140Ah, above the Sargent ratings. But odd that, so far, I can't see specific details of the EC176, other than cut down blurb in the Autotrail guides.

We have the v-line 634 sport, and have fitted two 130amp batteries go under the bunk length ways on had to by a bigger bat box (already had one) still lots of nooks and crannies for goodies including 28 gas canisters for the camping stove and couple of other bits including towels

I've got the smallest V-Line the 540SE, so the rear lounge seats are only about 1.4m long, so if I added a second battery, what with one side having the Truma and Sargent and other having the battery I'm left with very little storage. So second battery is a no go.

 

[Off da Grid]

If your ebike has a Bosch battery they now make an adapter to charge them from 12v.
Converting from 12v to 240v and back down via the charger to your ebike battery will waste a load of energy due to the inefficiency of all that converting.
If you do go for an inverter you need to check weather you need a pure sine wave inverter or not, some of these modern gadgets won’t tolerate the cheap modified sine wave ones.
I bought a low power one a while back to charge my makita batteries in the van and the charger would never finish the charging process.

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[138go]

Charging a 500w EBike battery will consume about 50 amps from your battery using an inverter. You are better off charging the battery while on the move or from EHU. EBike batteries are normally 36v so your charger is going to be pumping out about 42V DC.

 

[Theonlysue]

Depends on your charger and electrics.
Given what you want to achieve, and the space available, I would say look at lithium if your electrics can cope with it.
You can always take it with you if you change vans.

 

[Lenny HB]

If your ebike has a Bosch battery they now make an adapter to charge them from 12v.
Converting from 12v to 240v and back down via the charger to your ebike battery will waste a load of energy due to the inefficiency of all that converting.

I think it's discontinued and it cost an arm & a leg.

 

[Lenny HB]

I don't think the Sargent unit will support Gels so you are better off with good quality flooded cells.
As you say a B2B would be useful also more solar.

 

[autorouter]

You should be careful of the difference between watts and watt-hours. It causes confusion.

Your bike battery is 500 watt-hours, not 500 watts. That's 500/12 = 41.7 amp-hours from a 12 volt battery. Your battery is 72 amp-hours, which gives you a usable 36 amp-hours if you stick to the accepted practice of only discharging to the 50% level.

So charging the bike battery from your 72Ah battery will discharge to less then 50%. That's why it's suggested that you charge the bike battery while driving.

Your 100W solar panel will only produce about 48 amp-hours max, and that's on a long sunny summer day. That will just about replace the charge from your bike battery.

Lead-acid batteries (flooded, AGM, Gel) all have similar energy densities, in other words if you want bigger capacity you need bigger size and more weight. Lithium batteries have better energy density, and are about half the size/weight for the same capacity.

12 volt laptop chargers are readily available, I use one all the time in the MH, more efficient than going through an inverter.

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[Kannon Fodda]

Thanks for all the thoughts. The 12v Bosch charger is discontinued. No doubt it took too much from vehicles batteries.

Whilst there are four 230v power points when on hook up only one 12v point off the leisure battery. As we know 12v leisure is all disabled when the engine is on. So without the 12v charger I can only charge from inverter when static.

The ability to recharge would only be say once a trip. After that I’d need a site with full facilities simply to empty cassette and waste plus refill as I have next to no storage or water capacity. So then I’d be on hookup.

Space is the problem. Not weight. One larger battery to allow a recharge plus habitation should work. The charge profile is the concern.

I’ll look for a 12v laptop charger not sure I’ll find one with the right fitting as Lapps is a bit of a beast needing 100w at 230v.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

I've also had clarification from Sergent on the EC176:

The charger built in the EC176 is a fixed voltage charger capable of delivering : DC Output 13.8 Volts nominal, Current 12 Amps max (155 Watts). Please see the attached manual for further details. This charger is capable of charging up only lead acid batteries I am afraid which preferably do not exceed 110 A as the charger is fairly low end and it can only push out about 12 AMPS per hour.

So I'm going to need some fairly expensive changes with B2B and other stuff if I want a better battery than the pathetic 72Ah.

 

[autorouter]

I’ll look for a 12v laptop charger not sure I’ll find one with the right fitting as Lapps is a bit of a beast needing 100w at 230v.

This has a choice of 12V and 230V input and a selection of output voltages and output plugs. 120 watts, so should cope with 100 watts easily.

Adjustable 12-24V 120W AC/DC Adapter Inverter Car Charger Laptop Power Supply | eBay

Power (Max): 120W. Output: DC12-24V. Features overheating protection, overload and short circuit protection. 1 Car power cable. 1 Family power cord. 8 Connectors.

rover.ebay.com

 

[romany]

I would keep the battery and upgrade the motorhome

 

[TheCaller]

I've also had clarification from Sergent on the EC176:

The charger built in the EC176 is a fixed voltage charger capable of delivering : DC Output 13.8 Volts nominal, Current 12 Amps max (155 Watts).

I think I'd call that a power supply, rather than a modern battery charger. That will never bring your battery to full charge.

.. as the charger is fairly low end

They can say that again!

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[Camping Gaza]

Fit a B2B, if you have no space for a battery bank (just increasing your 75 to 120 is not going to be much of a cure) as you need the ability to fast charge what you have. you need to throw as much charging amps into that little battery as possible

Finding a way of charging your e bike using 12v regulated charger rather than an inverter would be a better option. Can you fit more solar? would a 2 part folding solar panel be an option for you?

Even a generator would be useless charging your ebike batteries as it would take forever.

Do you not have anywhere to fit extra batteries? I have a small van and fitted an extra 2 under the sofas, one on each side. Some often fit them under the passenger and drivers seats.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

At this rate it’ll be cheaper and easiest to buy another bike battery than attempt recharging whilst out and about.

No space anywhere practical for a 2nd leisure battery. Would need serious modification to get under a driver /passenger seat and all other wires in wrong place plus where would the spare wheel toolkits then live. Rear sofa seat already is largely taken up with the Sergent , Truma (and all it’s hoses) leisure battery so I don’t have much storage even for a folding chair. And roof is also full with the two roof lights, solar, shower vent done plus tv aerial. The limits of a 5.4 m length pvc.

So increase a single battery is doable. Find space for a small inverter is doable. Perhaps work out how to supplement with a B2B, if it would work is doable but otherwise it’s just too many things.

 

[Lenny HB]

I've also had clarification from Sergent on the EC176:



So I'm going to need some fairly expensive changes with B2B and other stuff if I want a better battery than the pathetic 72Ah.

I thought it was a new van but with that charger I assume it's quite a few years old.
First thing you need to do is replace the charger as batteries will never get a full charge and consequently not last long.
Photonic Universe do a charger that supports Gels I think a out £70 for a 10 amp and just over £100 for a 20amp. You could then fit a 78 or 80a/h Gel which will give more useable power than a normal 100a/h battery.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

I thought it was a new van but with that charger I assume it's quite a few years old

It is 3 weeks old. 2019 spec autotrail

 

[Lenny HB]

It is 3 weeks old. 2019 spec autotrail

In that case either they have not fitted a proper charger or Sargent have given you the wrong info.
All vans these days normally have a multi stage chargers that have at least 3 stages. Bulk charge takes the battery to 14.3v or 14.7 dependent on type of battery then an absorption phase which holds the voltage with a limited current for a few hours then drops to a 13.8v float charge.

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[138go]

Whilst there are four 230v power points when on hook up only one 12v point off the leisure battery. As we know 12v leisure is all disabled when the engine is on. So without the 12v charger I can only charge from inverter when static.

The 12v leisure battery is being charged all the while when you are on the move so you can have an inverter connected to the leisure battery directly. I have a remote switch on ours which operates a relay 70A to turn the power onto the relay. All you need to add is your B2B setup. You are not going to be running an inverter off the 12v socket.

The Sargent electronics are very limited in what they do so must be down to cost when manufacturing. Something no one thinks about when ordering their brand new MH. Limit of 100w for solar so you have to fit an external solar controller. Limit on battery charging / type so you need to fit a better charger. Crazy way to carry on but dictated by the MH converter who wants the cheapest electrical system they can get away with which is why you cannot have the electrics in the habitation area on when on the move.

 

[Off da Grid]

We can have everything on in our 2011 Ducato Trigano Tribute.
We had 3 230v sockets when we got the van in 2017.
I added an another one when I took out the connection to the battery charger so I can switch it off as I’ve not needed to use it as the solar takes care of the batteries.
if we use ehu it’s only for the fridge, electric water heater and kettle to save on gas.
I Also fitted a load of extra 12v sockets.

 

[physio49]

The Sargent unit is indeed very limited, and am in the process of writing an article regrading this.
The most irritating aspect to me, is the Habitation switch of when the engine starts. No other manufacturer does this - and when I inquired why, they told me it was for safety.
Basically other (continental ) manufacturers have their units tested for EMF radiation - not Sargent, so they just switch it of instead!