Judderists!

[WillH]

I have just come off the phone to our local Fiat dealer after booking my van in for an inspection of the judder. After speaking to the mechanic he reckons that Fiat are still waiting for sufficient numbers of customers to make a complaint.

I made my compaint in writing after having the van for 4 months and deciding this judder wasn't going to go away. They in turn have asked me to take the van to a Fiat dealer for examination. The maechanic has told me that the official line must be adhered to but to keep my claim active i must follow Fiats requirements.

please everbody out there with a judder, get writing.

rgds
Bill

 

[American Dream]

Hi Bill,

Just out of interest , is this judder engine related, drive train or chassis etc?

 

[JayDee]

There's quite a lot about this subject in August's MMM.

Apparently it's a characteristic of the vehicle - which translates in my mind to 'we designed and built a vehicle with the characteristic that will damage your gear box and clutch. Please buy it!'

If I was in the market I'd be looking at Renault, Mercedes and Iveco bases. Definitely not Fiat / Peugeot.

I just feel sorry for all the poor misled and mistreated owners.

Maybe they'll get the message eventually


John

 

[WillH]

Hi Bill,

Just out of interest , is this judder engine related, drive train or chassis etc?

The judder feels drivetrain related, similar to trying to reverse a heavy caravan on soft ground, i.e. there doesn't seem to be enough 'grunt'. I feel that the gear ratio is not low enough, it certainly feels higher than 1st gear.

To my way of thinking i should be able to reverse at a 'crawl' without over revving the engine as recommended. If the engine is revved, over 1300 rpm as recommended by Fiat, the judder disappears, but so does the drivers control over the vehicle, safety is compromised.

Any other ideas out there?

Rgds
Bill

 

[American Dream]

The judder feels drivetrain related, similar to trying to reverse a heavy caravan on soft ground, i.e. there doesn't seem to be enough 'grunt'. I feel that the gear ratio is not low enough, it certainly feels higher than 1st gear.

To my way of thinking i should be able to reverse at a 'crawl' without over revving the engine as recommended. If the engine is revved, over 1300 rpm as recommended by Fiat, the judder disappears, but so does the drivers control over the vehicle, safety is compromised.

Any other ideas out there?

Rgds
Bill

You may have got it.

Perhaps they used a stock gearbox and the reverse gear was designed for a lighter vehicle?....Just a thought.Can you imagine all the retooling required to setup the correct ratios for a heavier vehicle than a standard "van" chassis?

To over-rev an engine just to get the power will involve delicate clutch control and stressing on the clutch itself plus wear on the friction plate.oh:

Alternatively..if this occurs at a certain speed, it may be a shaft/component out of balance.

They should really be sorting this.:Angry: Sounds like they know about this but are (allegedly) shirking their responsibilities.

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[WillH]

Hi again,

had my van inspected by Fiat and of course there is nothing wrong, merely a 'characteristic'. After trying various things I came to the conclusion that the reverse gear ratio is too high, higher than 1st gear in fact.

When I accessed both the Fiat and Peugeot websites to get the tech spec on the gear ratios the 130 hp engine has disappeared as an option, I am sure it was there a couple of weeks ago.

Perhaps they have realised they must do something.

Rgds
Bill:Sad:

 

[Adria 5]

hi theres a article on rear judder in mmm magazine..intresting

ray

 

[itexuk]

You can still find details here:
italiaspeed.com: FIAT DUCATO X250

 

[Munchie]

Latest

Read today on another forum

Fiat have said that they will be sending out a letter to owners either later this week or early next week which will give us the assurances and information we all need.
They are proposing to examine all the vehicles the subject of a complaint and carry out the necessary remedial work to the customer's satisfaction.
This will involve a combination of modified engine mountings, a lower reverse gear ratio and a clutch modification.
The work will start on the 2.3 litre versions first probably at the end of January, then to the 2.2 litre and 3 litre version after that.
The exact timetable for such a huge logistical task will be hard to judge until the work is underway, and nobody will be queue jumping by shouting loudest apparently, so we will all have to wait until we are contacted. :thumb:

 

[Kon tiki]

Are they saying they are going to recall ALL vehicles? I thought that they originally said they were only going to fix vans who had reported a fault. I made the descion to avoid all the Sevel based motorhomes when we bought our last van partly because of Fiat's lack of action on this problem. I know it was only a small amount of owners who suffered compared to the amount they sell but what about the vans that don't get 'fixed' will the second hand value of these be affected?

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[dshague]

there are hundreds of posts here Link Removed

 

[ronald4874]

Ron W

The juddering gearbox is a serious fault and was there when the vehicle left the factory. Yes they now understand the problem and will have to deal with the situation, because even in say 5 years time it can be proved that the fault existed at the outset, manufacturers are liable to correct the problem.
It would be interesting if the vehicle has had several owners by that time. The second hand value on these vans will no doubt suffer in the mean time. I wonder in law wether one can be compensated for this lose?.

 

[dshague]

this is off mmm


Posts: 323

Well, I think that we will finally have the information and assurances we all seek from Fiat either later this week or early next week.
After a conversation with Fiat today they are stating, categorically, that they have a plan of action to rectify all the vans which are the subject of a complaint and have a case number.
The solution involves modified engine mountings, clutch changes and a lower reverse gear in some cases.
The logistics of carriyng out all this work will require quite some organising and Fiat will be contacting owners shortly to supply a more definite timescale. There is no point contacting them at the moment.
I believe that the 2.3 litre 6 speed versions will be dealt with first (from the end of January onwards) then they will look at the 3 litre and 2.2 litre versions after that.
And from what the Fiat representiative told me I don't think this is another delaying tactic.
There are going to be some 'issues' which owners will need to consider when the work is done, and nearer the time I will put something on here, and email an info sheet to affected owners about how to get things done to their satisfaction.
Hopefully that's about it really.

 

[buccaneer]

But does this help people with Peugeots,I know Dec's MMM has a spokesman from Peugeot saying it will be fixed but that was before this fiat news and it had not been passed onto dealers.

 

[pappajohn]

Read today on another forum

Fiat have said that they will be sending out a letter to owners either later this week or early next week which will give us the assurances and information we all need.
They are proposing to examine all the vehicles the subject of a complaint and carry out the necessary remedial work to the customer's satisfaction.
This will involve a combination of modified engine mountings, a lower reverse gear ratio and a clutch modification.
The work will start on the 2.3 litre versions first probably at the end of January, then to the 2.2 litre and 3 litre version after that.
The exact timetable for such a huge logistical task will be hard to judge until the work is underway, and nobody will be queue jumping by shouting loudest apparently, so we will all have to wait until we are contacted. :thumb:

thats just put up the price of a new fiat chassis then, someone has to pay for all the work needed.:Angry::Angry:

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[bigfoot]

The person who should be thanked for this result is Andy Stothert. He stuck with this tenaciously and didn't get 'fobbed off' with trite platitudes from Fiat or dealers he has researched his case well and assisted many disgruntled owners myself included.I await the result with eager anticipation!!

 

[Kon tiki]

this is off mmm
that they have a plan of action to rectify all the vans which are the subject of a complaint and have a case number.
.

This to me is the BIG problem, from what you are saying they are only going to fix vehicles which are showing signs of juddering & have a case number & not fix all vans. As somebody else has said vans which might have this problem then what??
If I had a van which might be prone to this I would be screaming for it to have the modification.:shout: To me they should own up & admit it is a possible problem & not a characteristic. :Angry:

 

[roger loiselle]

Are they saying they are going to recall ALL vehicles? I thought that they originally said they were only going to fix vans who had reported a fault. I made the descion to avoid all the Sevel based motorhomes when we bought our last van partly because of Fiat's lack of action on this problem. I know it was only a small amount of owners who suffered compared to the amount they sell but what about the vans that don't get 'fixed' will the second hand value of these be affected?

We recently took delivery of an Auto Trail with a ducato 3 litre automatic which doesn't judder at all, I wonder if the size of engine and/or the automatic influences this? Regards Roger Loiselle

 

[Wildman]

As a characteristic rather than a possible problem they have stated it all vans rather than a few so will be interesting to see how they proceed.

 

[Kon tiki]

I believe that the automatics are the only ones that don't have a problem, I personally think it is a lot to do with the gear ratio of reverse being too high.

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[WillH]

I believe the 2.3 is the only affected engine size. If you go to the Fiat Prfessional website in any european country the 130 multijet is no longer offered as an option.

When I spoke to my dealer and asked him if he was aware they had withdrawn the 130 there was a silence!

For me now it is just wait and see, I have a case number, have written to Swift and my dealer and recieved a very good reply from Swift.

As for actually using the van, no real problems. I avoid, where possible, situations where I may have to reverse up a slope. Only had a clutch smelling once, the day I brought her home.

Covered over 7000 miles and the clutch is still okay.

Rgds
Bill

 

[Munchie]

Latest from Fiat

We spoke with Mr Stothert on Monday this week. We will be contacting our 2.3 engine customers with our intentions in the New Year by letter in the next two weeks.

We have to control the flow of customers into the dealerships in order not to over work them. I'm sure you will understand that in order to have the correct number of parts, we will have to contact customers in the New Year at different stages.

The dealerships involved will then test your vehicle with you present to make sure that you are happy with the modification completed.

Technical information is still coming through and we need to make sure that the dealerships have the right tools. Whilst this is happening, our customer relations department will be organising which customers will be contacted in order.

If you are contacting us for the first time, we need all your vehicle details, reg, chassis and engine size. Please also supply your contact details.

All of our customers who have contacted us, will be contacted. If you do not receive a letter from us in the next two weeks, please call 00800 3428 0000 option 3.
:thumb:

 

[Munchie]

Hi, got a letter from Fiat yesterday saying they would be in touch during March to arrange for mods to be carried out. This was two days after reporting the problem. :thumb:

 

[Reallyretired]

My van is on a 3L Mercedes, however reverse gear is noticeably a higher ratio than first as with the Sevel. It doesn't judder though (though I have stalled on occassions reversing up a slope):shout:

 

[Oscarmax]

My van goes in on Monday for engine mounts, apparently 5 van have been done, 3 dont work, 1 has not tested it, 1 gearbox failedhope my hold out, it judders on a smooth flat surface, to date I havent dared to try a step hill

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[Oscarmax]

Collected my van yesterday following new engine mounts, they road tested before I got there, i.e reverse it up their slightly inclined yard, no road test.

When I arrived they just handed me the keys, not a word, just we will have to move a van out of the way.

I reversed the van on a flat section of the yard, it now judders worst than before, told them in the office, they could not be less intrested, you will have to take it up with Fiat.

Driving home the gear change is now very notchy, it now judders in first, the service, attitude is appauling, the new engine mounts, all I can say it was better before the modifications.

Total waste of time, and now my van is worse

 

[buccaneer]

Collected my van yesterday following new engine mounts, they road tested before I got there, i.e reverse it up their slightly inclined yard, no road test.

When I arrived they just handed me the keys, not a word, just we will have to move a van out of the way.

I reversed the van on a flat section of the yard, it now judders worst than before, told them in the office, they could not be less intrested, you will have to take it up with Fiat.

Driving home the gear change is now very notchy, it now judders in first, the service, attitude is appauling, the new engine mounts, all I can say it was better before the modifications.

Total waste of time, and now my van is worse

If thats the case can you ask them to put back on your original engine mounts?

 

[simsy56]

Its a FIAT! Would anyone really buy a FIAT through choice?
You only have to see what depreciation fiat cars have to know what they are built like! And it doesn't surprise me that things go wrong with FIAT commercials because they are the same.
I am in the market for a new motorhome, and one thing thats for sure, I won't be buying a FIAT!

 

[WillH]

Its a FIAT! Would anyone really buy a FIAT through choice?
You only have to see what depreciation fiat cars have to know what they are built like! And it doesn't surprise me that things go wrong with FIAT commercials because they are the same.
I am in the market for a new motorhome, and one thing thats for sure, I won't be buying a FIAT!

I must say that juddering apart I find my motorhome excellent in every other way. it's a joy to drive, plenty of power and superb brakes. Fuel economy seems to be better than anything else on the market, on my last outing I averaged 33 mpg over a 425 mile run, not bad for a motorhome!

On the juddering front I can now manoevre the beast with no problems, it just takes very light footwork.

Rgds
Bill

 

[Losos]

If I was in the market I'd be looking at Renault, Mercedes and Iveco bases. Definitely not Fiat / Peugeot.

John, well I'm in the market right now, I have two weeks rental booked in April to help with my 'learning curve' I have decided to kick all the Sevel factory into touch, Fiat & Peugeot definately and I'm dubious about the Citroen too (Have in the past been fan of Citroen)

VW might be a tad small and Ford don't do an auto box so that just leaves me with Renault and Mercedes (maybe just a tad over my budget)

A kind member on one of the forums has given me some good info on the Renault Master, allegedly their auto box gives better mpg than the manual. That surprised me.

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