I amthinking, electric car???

[Gromett]

Oh really , i didn't know that . Now that will be really interesting then .



Actually that's very true , however i was ignoring that fact , me ole mucker .

Personally speaking , i find this battery leasing idea interesting , i can see it as a game changer , beit an expensive game changer . I've never seen electric as the way to go , the reason for this , is they have one massive drawback , and that's the battery itself . Without a cure for that , anyone buying a new car will be able to watch the depreciation , every single day . I certainly wouldn't buy a second hand electric , unless it had a new battery , and i seriously doubt many other people would too , unless it was at , an absolute rock bottom price . That would wipe the second hand market out , and without a second hand market there will be no one to sell these cars on to , in effect making them worthless . Another aspect that should never be forgotten , is not everyone can afford a new car , some not even second hand , with public transport unable to take up the slack , what would happen then ? .

I can see big problems ahead ! .

What exactly is the problem with the battery itself? You state this is the problem but don't elucidate as to what you think the problem is.

On the second hand market issue. The batteries are falling in price rapidly and once there are enough EV's on the road there will be companies set up to recondition and offer replacement batteries. The market for second hand EV batteries is already HUGE so even if you buy a second hand EV with a reduced range battery you are likely to be able to sell the old battery for a significant proportion of the cost of a new one.

 

[Tony50]

On the Tesla if you have A Battery cell fault , they are small so the guy said and replaceable

 

[GWAYGWAY]

The batteries have a long life it is the leasing of the damn things from Renault , looks like it breaks down at the same as fuel in a diesel car but the charges go on regardless. It is a variable contract in that you choose you mileage and if you need to use some up for a reason the contract stops and the fees run on with the car there or you pay and on top charge of 8p per mile plus the hire fee to stop you doing it. I love the car but having the equivalent of a gallon and a half tank , on a good trip is too restrictive for most. In London they would be fantastic if you had a parking place off road, elsewhere too restrictive for most people.

 

[airwave]

What exactly is the problem with the battery itself?

Weight , size , cost , limitation . To my mind batteries appear to be getting smaller , a good move , however so do their limit's , the only thing that does appear to be improving , is their price . At an extreme end , my first mobile phone battery fully charged would last a week , yet a modern phone if your lucky only about 8 hours .

Now i'm fully aware of the other thread that's running on fun , and though i started reading it , i now largely ignore it . Many of the point's raised there echo my own thoughts , so i'm not gonna repeat them here . They have been playing with electric cars for the last 40 years , i certainly remember when i was a kid the so called joy's of electric cars being batted about . We will all be running about in them by 2000 , they hailed , yet here we are in 2018 , still struggling with fossil burning vehicle's , and electric still only taking 0.6 percent of the market . Oh , and that's an official figure from last week , yes i do try to keep an eye on it too , something has gotta be done , trouble is , it's beyond me . Until last year , only one fully electric car emerged during that time . Produced by general motors in the 80's , and called the ev1 , it was released in california to test the market . Despite it only being a two seater , it was received extremely well , even having a couple of celebrities among it's list of satisfied owners . Having a 150 mile range and 100 mph top speed , it had some fancy electronic trickery under the lid to make it all happen . Shown on top gear , it was pitched against a 3 litre vauxhall carlton , where it's fair to say the ev1 walked all over it . Yet all these cars were reclaimed by general motors and subsequently crushed . Why you may ask , well there are a couple of conspiracy theories , but the truth is no one actually knows except for gm themselves , the interesting bit is the blueprint's have also been said to have been destroyed . Following that there was a flirtation with electric car's , most being jokes , but nothing came close to this vehicle .
Last year , our government announced the banning of all new fossil burning vehicles , personally i think initially this was to deflect some of the heat from brexit (sorry @Jim) , but even so there was a scramble of new technology . I believe this to be the old technology gained over the past 40 years , and largely this is reinforced by the fact that this tec appear's to have slowed down somewhat of late . The internet is full of stories of what's new , yet non make the general news as i would expect on such a serious issue , so i have to question their validity .
So what went wrong , well i believe , it's the old nutshell , the battery .
Looking at it from another direction . An all electric heavy truck , with sufficient range and power , would have no meaningful carrying capacity , under current legislation . To achieve this , you would need to almost double the current weight limit , just to stand still , but that also comes at a price , even if the road's could , no bridge would be able to withstand the weight . Then there's the cost to consider , i work for , in the main 7 different companies , 3 supplier (2 food) , 4 general , or in other words , what you buy on ebay . Only one of those companies is international , yet 4 operate 44 tonner's . Not one would be able to fund an electric , let alone a fleet , their profit margins being so low . Driven by the general public's demand for cheaper prices , this is been compounded lately by the demand for faster deliveries . As a result haulage companies devoid of any government help , have been forced to ignore driver's wages to a point where they are now just over minimum wage , which has also helped to fuel the current driver shortage .
Close to me , i have two major supermarket distribution centres , actually i've worked at both , neither are using alternative fuels , as are none of the supplier vehicles . I only know of one major chain using gas , and a supplier using a mix , though there is a fast food chain using cooking oil . One delivery centre near me , was using an electric 7 and a half , but that also appears to have disappeared .
Now i know what your thinking , that's haulage it don't concern us , but it does . If our haulage industry failed , you wouldn't need to worry about what car you own . Yes freight can be moved by rail , and to a large extent i think this will have to happen , but you still need a truck to deliver it from the railhead to distribution centre , and you can forget about fast delivery .
Now you have raised some interesting point's regarding batteries . Yes there does appear to be a value on second hand batteries , however from what i've read this is not for use in the automotive market . Used for solar storage , the only problem i can see with this , is i would expect the price to drop as supply begins to outstrips demand . And as for reconditioning batteries , well once a battery is gone , it is gone . However i've discovered reference to battery reconditioning on the net , would this work , weeeell maybe i remain to be convinced , but i doubt it would return to full capacity , or service life . If it did work , we would all be doing it by now , i've heard of this with dry cell batteries , and i can tell you that don't work .

 

[haganap]

I change mine in 6 months, I am thinking stick with my dirty diesel Audi A6 or bite the bullet and get the Tesla.

but not sure of it's life span....

Also looked at the Hyundai. massive difference.

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[Cheshirecat57]

I change mine in 6 months, I am thinking stick with my dirty diesel Audi A6 or bite the bullet and get the Tesla.

but not sure of it's life span....

Also looked at the Hyundai. massive difference.

@haganap
As part of one of my roles within my job, currently long-term testing a Hyundai Ioniq plug-in hybrid
Based in Cheshire
PM me if you want more info
Regards

 

[Gromett]

I change mine in 6 months, I am thinking stick with my dirty diesel Audi A6 or bite the bullet and get the Tesla.

but not sure of it's life span....

Also looked at the Hyundai. massive difference.

Tesla has an 8 year battery warranty and have the lowest degradation in the industry. Best way to extend battery life is not to do use the super chargers too often and to try not to do the 100% boost charge too often. Go to https://teslanomics.co/tesla-batteries-last-forever-basically/ and check this out.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

@airwave
Watch this space regarding electric trucks
Volvo will have a useable 18 tonner within 3 years and already has all electric bin wagons trialling in Germany

We also have all electric (volvo) buses operating in Manchester now

 

[PhilG]

Buy a new Suzuki Alto for £5995, give it away after a year and buy a new one, every year for 4 years , still costs less than a Renault Zoe. Both shopping cars .

 

[Chris]

Buy a new Suzuki Alto for £5995, give it away after a year and buy a new one, every year for 4 years , still costs less than a Renault Zoe. Both shopping cars .

That’s a shocking truth isn’t it?

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[PhilG]

That’s a shocking truth isn’t it?

And one which all the 'buy electric' people seem to miss

£28K for a Zoe ... i can buy an E63 AMG Mercedes with full service history, for that with 50k miles on it.

Those Zoe's have lost £10k a year at that price, so in theory, Renault could PAY you 75p a mile , for 10,0000 miles each year , and you would still be £5k out of pocket after 2 years.

 

[gus-lopez]

We also have all electric (volvo) buses operating in Manchester now

We had them when I was a child. Trams they were called

 

[airwave]

Trams

Yep and i can see them return .

It would actually be a good move , remove all the car's to outta town parking forcing the occupant's onto buses . Then replace the buses with electric tram's .

You could use a kind of freight tram to restock the shop's at night , but as is common with a track transport system it wouldn't be quiet , so you could count on someone complaining , somewhere .
The most logical route would be then , as the trucks are already delivering to outta town storage , have them deliver to outta town , mall type shopping centres instead , however the problem with that is , it would itself , also remove the town centre .

 

[PhilG]

Neighbour just bought his third Prius, totally ignores the depreciation and thinks it costs him nothing to run , because he rarely has to go to the garage.. the again, he plays golf, so its no surprise.

 

[hilldweller]

We also have all electric (volvo) buses operating in Manchester now

As a kid I remember using the electric buses in Manchester. Trolley buses.
I remember the clanking trams in Stockport.

Plus ca change.

And I remember just driving into Manchester and parking. Just like that, pull up at kerb, get out, walk.

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[hilldweller]

That’s a shocking truth isn’t it?

And a cleverly disguised truth. Use electric, save the planet, but in reality, the tiny mileages these electric cars will do means a modern petrol one will be no worse for the planet.

 

[Petehvan]

If you run a "dirty diesel " on average mileage you can drive it for 12 1/2 years before you will equal the pollutants created to produce the car in the first place, at the moment the pollution from electric cars is even higher.

 

[pandas]

As the UK Dutch were incentivised to invest in electric cars with no car tax and some cash-backs. After several years they have changed the car tax criteria from being emissions related to weight related which is of course now an issue for those with heavy but small electric cars.

 

[PhilG]

Nothing saves the planet more than not buying crap you dont need .. new cars , no matter how clean cannot have a better carbon footprint of one that already exists.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

@airwave
Watch this space regarding electric trucks
Volvo will have a useable 18 tonner within 3 years and already has all electric bin wagons trialling in Germany

We also have all electric (volvo) buses operating in Manchester now

They had trolley buses in the 40's but the cables were the problem dynamic charging in the road would work there high input charging using induction loops, to boost the batteries, at every set bus stop.

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[Cheshirecat57]

As a kid I remember using the electric buses in Manchester. Trolley buses.
I remember the clanking trams in Stockport.

Plus ca change.

And I remember just driving into Manchester and parking. Just like that, pull up at kerb, get out, walk.

Then came meters taking "tanners"---------now they take tenners !

 

[gus-lopez]

Neighbour just bought his third Prius, totally ignores the depreciation and thinks it costs him nothing to run , because he rarely has to go to the garage.. the again, he plays golf, so its no surprise.

Fascinates me the cab drivers using them here & then they pass you on the mway at 140kph. All these hybrids only work if you drive like you are on the Mobil economy run . Drive normally & a Prius will barely achieve 25mpg

As the UK Dutch were incentivised to invest in electric cars with no car tax and some cash-backs. After several years they have changed the car tax criteria from being emissions related to weight related which is of course now an issue for those with heavy but small electric cars.

It is called "rope a dope". Offer "incentives" then when you have the majority the price has to rise to keep the shareholders/government/tax man happy-
Water meters was another scam.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Fascinates me the cab drivers using them here & then they pass you on the mway at 140kph. All these hybrids only work if you drive like you are on the Mobil economy run . Drive normally & a Prius will barely achieve 25mpg

As I posted elsewhere and for INFO, we are field testing a Hyundai Ioniq Plug in Hybrid Petrol 1.6

Driven in full Hybrid on a "Mobil Eco Run" as Gus describes car can do a genuine 85mpg
Driven in full Hybrid- "like you stole it"- 60-66mpg

Interestingly, we did a ten day, all routes, all styles test where we deliberately didn't charge it and it returned a genuine 49mpg

All calcs based on brim2brim filling and not the on-boards

 

[Crazylegs]

Given that we are being encouraged to go electric by way of subsidies and government advice, I have just bought a new oil burner, I won’t fall for that trick twice.

 

[glenn2926]

How is the range and recharge times coming along? I live in Yorkshire and travel to my sons in Chamonix a couple times of year. Is this doable without a couple of overnight recharges yet. This is a genuine question. As the extra cost of buying an EV plus the extra time and cost of staying overnight eats into the supposed cheaper running costs.

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[PhilG]

How is the range and recharge times coming along? I live in Yorkshire and travel to my sons in Chamonix a couple times of year. Is this doable without a couple of overnight recharges yet. This is a genuine question. As the extra cost of buying an EV plus the extra time and cost of staying overnight eats into the supposed cheaper running costs.

This is the issue for most folk. You have to plan your journey around where you can charge your car, otherwise you don't get there. And even if there is a charge point, what if you cant get on it ? or its broken. I think the term is called 'range anxiety'.. the fear that you wont get to where you need to get , with what charge you have. That alone is enough to make me want to never bother.

Just like petrol and diesel cars , with fuel economy figures, quoted ranges are always optimistic.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Which is why I think in the short-term, plug-in HYBRID (PHEV) is the tech for now, and indeed the next 10 years
ZERO range anxiety but fantastic on short runs around town ( which I believe most but not all journeys are

The Hyundai takes 3 hours on a standard 3 pin uk plug ( and would be even quicker on a 16 amp campsite)

 

[hilldweller]

The Hyundai takes 3 hours on a standard 3 pin uk plug

3h x 3kW = 9kWh. Not a lot, is that 20 or so miles ?

 

[Cheshirecat57]

3h x 3kW = 9kWh. Not a lot, is that 20 or so miles ?

29 real world miles- but the hybrid element is so good that in hybrid mode you can do a few hundred miles between charges

 

[hilldweller]

29 real world miles- but the hybrid element is so good that in hybrid mode you can do a few hundred miles between charges

Sorry I can't get enthusiastic about all the massive complexity, sort of the worst of both worlds, for 29 miles of cheap motoring. It can't be justifiable economically.

I can see more sense in an electric car with built in petrol/diesel charger, now that blends the best of both worlds. Don't BMW do this ?

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