Galileo SatNavs - will we miss them?

[kevenh]

There’s a BBC story about the UK not being part of Galileo here.
But who’s been using Galileo anyway?

Will it be a loss to companies rather than individuals?
Does anyone have a GPSr or Sat Nav using Galileo?
As a choice of satellites or the only option?

Our Satnav is a 12yro model and just uses the American GPS ones.
Our modern GPSr can use GPS (USA) &/or GLONASS (Ru).

 

[Richard n Ann]

Sounds expensive wonder why we needed another? The clue's in the name 'global' meaning one for the whole world. What with the EU building an army makes you wonder what they've got in mind.

 

[Stanbrook]

The BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS) is a Chinese satellite navigation system. It consists of two separate satellite constellations.
The BeiDou system, is different to Glonass or Gps as it allows the user to send and receive short text messages. Ideal for search and rescue when the power and phone system is down.
The American spy planes can use it as a reserve system in case Gps and Glonass fail.
Good luck

 

[klaatu]

My phone (Samsung S9+) uses Galileo satellites, along with the other three sets of satellites.

 

[tonyidle]

Sounds expensive wonder why we needed another? The clue's in the name 'global' meaning one for the whole world. What with the EU building an army makes you wonder what they've got in mind.

They had in mind that we're dependant entirely on what the Americans allow us to use. The USA only recently allowed the sort of accuracy we've become used to. Full accuracy is still only accessible to the US military. Technology has moved on somewhat since the system was launched and is yet another reason to build a new system.

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[Clarky]

The UK played a major part in developing the Galileo system as well as putting a large chunk of cash in.
Now the EU have the cheek to tell us we can't use it. We should demand a refund.............some hope!
There were plans for the UK to develop its own independent system, although the cost is very high.
There is rumour that the UK is ready to take over another satellite company that has got into financial difficulty to reduce the time and cost of our own system.

Richard.

 

[mpdcymru]

The Times yesterday:
Boris Johnson is poised to secure the $500 million part-purchase of an American satellite operator as the first step in creating Britain’s own sovereign system to rival the EU’s Galileo.

The prime minister and Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, signed off the purchase of a 20 per cent stake in OneWeb, an operator of low-earth orbit satellites, last night. Although the government technically is making a bid for the stake, British officials said the transaction was at “a very advanced stage”.

 

[NorthernSands]

Many things are starting to include Galileo and Glonass support. The reason alternatives to the US controlled traditional GPS were sought is that GPS accuracy was artificially reduced, except for the US military, and could be reduced further, or shut off, during time of war.

Some devices use more than one system at once to further increase accuracy (like fitness watches). But I can’t see it affecting us too much as even GPS works well enough.

 

[Pausim]

Until 1991 the GPS signal was downgraded for civilian use and only the US military had access to the P Code (Precise Code). During the 1991 Gulf War they had to turn off the downgrading because they suddenly discovered that lots of military vehicles needed GPS in the desert and they had to use civilian units. In 2000 Bill Clinton released the military grade signal for public use but I don’t doubt they still have the ability to lock out general use if someone has a hissy fit.

 

[Millcourt]

Sounds expensive wonder why we needed another? The clue's in the name 'global' meaning one for the whole world. What with the EU building an army makes you wonder what they've got in mind.

Did not know the EU was building an Army. Was that a decision of the EU Parliament or the EU Commission? Do you have a reference, as I would be interested to follow this up? Thank you.

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[Richard n Ann]

Did not know the EU was building an Army. Was that a decision of the EU Parliament or the EU Commission? Do you have a reference, as I would be interested to follow this up? Thank you.

No, something I read somewhere they were pretty sure it was happening.

 

[Millcourt]

Looks like "Fake News" then!

 

[klaatu]

Both Macron and Merkel have said that it’s something they personally think should happen in the future. Seems to have been a reaction to having a dangerous lunatic running the US.

Merkel joins Macron in calling for a ‘real, true European army’

Chancellor’s remarks come after Trump steps up attack on French leader over same idea

www.theguardian.com

 

[Millcourt]

Both Macron and Merkel have said that it’s something they personally think should happen in the future. Seems to have been a reaction to having a dangerous lunatic running the US.

Merkel joins Macron in calling for a ‘real, true European army’

Chancellor’s remarks come after Trump steps up attack on French leader over same idea

www.theguardian.com

Oh well........ if the Guardian said that in 2018 it must be true then! Such a pity we can no longer veto it!

 

[Tykatem]

What with the EU building an army makes you wonder what they've got in mind.

Pete

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[Gromett]

The GPS system is operated by the US and civillians have full access to the accurate channel. But in times of war this could be turned off without warning.
This is why the Galileo system was set up.

We need our own now because the EU is not allowing us access to the secure channel anymore.

This really only affects the Military not civilian use. There are new chips coming to market that support multiple GPS systems for civilian use. This will improve accuracy as your device will have many more satellites to take readings from. Currently chips in common use can use the Glassnos or GPS system in combination. The Galileo network is about ready if not just launched. The Chinese version is almost done. So within the next year or 2 there will be 4 networks working.

It is my view that the EU should allow us access to the secure channel as we helped develop and fund it. If they refuse then we need our own. A GPS system is critical for our military and not having control is as bad as not having access to fuel for our vehicles.

Would you put it past Trump to turn off GPS over Europe if the trade war kicks off. His thinking would be along the lines of Well they don't pay for the service why should they get it for free.
Can we be sure that the EU wouldn't turn it off over the middle east or any other region if we got involved in something they disagreed with?
5 years ago I would have said this was unthinkable, but the way things are going I am not so certain anymore.

The only reasonable response is to build our own. With SpaceX able to launch so cheap these days, it shouldn't cost a fortune to launch a network anymore and we have already done the bulk of the development for the Galileo system so it would just be construction costs mainly.

 

[Gromett]

PS: I think we should team up with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and develop our own with joint control and investment.
We could supply all the expertise with those other countries providing financial resources in return for full access.

Those countries are not adventurous like the US and we tend to think along the same lines. I think it would be a safe partnership.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Can we be sure that the EU wouldn't turn it off over the middle east or any other region if we got involved in something they disagreed with?

We shouldn't be sticking our nose in these volatile countries. We've got nukes for our defense and sod everybody else. We're still fighting the last war and God knows how many thousands died. I said at the time, I hope they know what they're getting themselves into... They didn't

 

[Gromett]

Just in case you are not aware of how it works...

You need a minimum of 3 viewable satellites to make an approximation of your location. This is based on mean sea level so the further away from sea level you are the lower the accuracy.
With 4 viewable satellites the accuracy massively improves.

Accuracy improves further the more satellites you can view over the bare minimum of 4. The GPS systems accuracy was fixed at the time of launch so there is a reduced level of accuracy compared to more recently launched satellite network. If your device has one of the new chips and can see say 5 GPS, 4 Glossnas and 4 Galileo satellites that is a total of 13 satellites which is a massive improvement in accuracy compared to just 5 GPS satellites alone. We are then looking at around 10 Centimetre accuracy rather than 3-5 meter accuracy of GPS on it's own.

 

[Gromett]

We shouldn't be sticking our nose in these volatile countries. We've got nukes for our defense and sod everybody else. We're still fighting the last war and God knows how many thousands died. I said at the time, I hope they know what they're getting themselves into... They didn't

I wasn't just talking about the middle east. Although I agree with you in principle, I was using it as an example. We cannot predict where it may be necessary to respond in future. Remember the Bosnian Genocide? Should we not have got involved there? Actually don't answer that, I don't want to drag this into a political debate. This is a technical question about capabilities for our military. I am sure you can use your imagination about a situation where it is in our interest to be involved but the EU doesn't like it.

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[DBK]

There are doubts about the OneWeb system the Government is looking to buy into. Unlike the other systems it uses satellites in low orbit and some have misgivings about this. But they are in polar orbits so coverage at the Poles is much better than GPS. Santa will like this feature.

 

[denisejoe]

If the eu army is formed who will fund it as a few are lacking paying for nato.
could be the end of nato and what would mean

 

[John Barrett]

Just in case you are not aware of how it works...

You need a minimum of 3 viewable satellites to make an approximation of your location. This is based on mean sea level so the further away from sea level you are the lower the accuracy.
With 4 viewable satellites the accuracy massively improves.

Accuracy improves further the more satellites you can view over the bare minimum of 4. The GPS systems accuracy was fixed at the time of launch so there is a reduced level of accuracy compared to more recently launched satellite network. If your device has one of the new chips and can see say 5 GPS, 4 Glossnas and 4 Galileo satellites that is a total of 13 satellites which is a massive improvement in accuracy compared to just 5 GPS satellites alone. We are then looking at around 10 Centimetre accuracy rather than 3-5 meter accuracy of GPS on it's own.

In the late 90's I was using TRANSAS, a state of the art maritime navigation system, but relying on Selective Availability which could be out by up to 100 metres. OK most of the time but going into St Peter Port in the dark and foggy could be a bit hairy.
May 1st 2000 was a great day for yachtsmen!
John

 

[Off da Grid]

If your device can use the Galileo system to receive the signal who’s to know.
All satnav regardless of which system they use are just receivers.
To put it simply all the satellites do is broadcast a really accurate time signal.
The satnav calculates its position using the difference in those time signals from multiple satellites.
Modern engineering projects like bridge building use a land based gps signal for one of the reference points.
There are even land based gps transmitters in some cities to help with the signal losses because of tall buildings.
The idea to modernise the GPS type systems is to enable 2 way communication if your in distress at sea miles from land you could use the system to send a distress signal using the satellite.
All ships and newer systems in smaller boats use a system called AIS.
This allows information about the vessel, it’s position size cargo etc. and ship to ship and or ship to shore data communication, really useful at night or in fog.

 

[icantremember]

All this fancy talk about satellites is beyond me and it all just goes over my head.

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[Gromett]

If your device can use the Galileo system to receive the signal who’s to know.
All satnav regardless of which system they use are just receivers.
To put it simply all the satellites do is broadcast a really accurate time signal.
The satnav calculates its position using the difference in those time signals from multiple satellites.
Modern engineering projects like bridge building use a land based gps signal for one of the reference points.
There are even land based gps transmitters in some cities to help with the signal losses because of tall buildings.
The idea to modernise the GPS type systems is to enable 2 way communication if your in distress at sea miles from land you could use the system to send a distress signal using the satellite.
All ships and newer systems in smaller boats use a system called AIS.
This allows information about the vessel, it’s position size cargo etc. and ship to ship and or ship to shore data communication, really useful at night or in fog.

The problem is not civilian use it is military use.

 

[SIFTA SAM]

The GPS system is operated by the US and civillians have full access to the accurate channel. But in times of war this could be turned off without warning.
This is why the Galileo system was set up.

We need our own now because the EU is not allowing us access to the secure channel anymore.

This really only affects the Military not civilian use. There are new chips coming to market that support multiple GPS systems for civilian use. This will improve accuracy as your device will have many more satellites to take readings from. Currently chips in common use can use the Glassnos or GPS system in combination. The Galileo network is about ready if not just launched. The Chinese version is almost done. So within the next year or 2 there will be 4 networks working.

It is my view that the EU should allow us access to the secure channel as we helped develop and fund it. If they refuse then we need our own. A GPS system is critical for our military and not having control is as bad as not having access to fuel for our vehicles.

Would you put it past Trump to turn off GPS over Europe if the trade war kicks off. His thinking would be along the lines of Well they don't pay for the service why should they get it for free.
Can we be sure that the EU wouldn't turn it off over the middle east or any other region if we got involved in something they disagreed with?
5 years ago I would have said this was unthinkable, but the way things are going I am not so certain anymore.

The only reasonable response is to build our own. With SpaceX able to launch so cheap these days, it shouldn't cost a fortune to launch a network anymore and we have already done the bulk of the development for the Galileo system so it would just be construction costs mainly.

Most of these satellites will be prime targets in a First Strike world war action.
I wonder what fall back nav system the major powers are/have developed?

Edit. Just checked my own question. Looks like it might be something called a Quantum Compass that is self contained, not requiring any satellite input.

 

[Taran_Las]

All this fancy talk about satellites is beyond me and it all just goes over my head.

Every 24 hours I believe

 

[nicholsong]

Would you put it past Trump to turn off GPS over Europe if the trade war kicks off. His thinking would be along the lines of Well they don't pay for the service why should they get it for free.
Can we be sure that the EU wouldn't turn it off over the middle east or any other region if we got involved in something they disagreed with?
5 years ago I would have said this was unthinkable, but the way things are going I am not so certain anymore.

Well he would be cutting off his own system used by US troops based in Europe.

 

[DBK]

Well he would be cutting off his own system used by US troops based in Europe.

I guess they could just alter the coding so only the US military could use it. A bit like what happened, but in reverse, of when the public were allowed access, years ago, to more accurate fixes.

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