French car import duty query

[Ingwe]

In October 2021, I gave my UK registered, taxed and insured, Audi car to a Dutch friend resident in France whilst on holiday there. I had wanted to register it myself in France but, as a non-resident, this was not possible. I gave the car away for nothing and prepared a formal letter to that effect and notified the DVLA that I was no longer the owner or registered keeper of the car and provided, as required, the details of the new owner. I received written confirmation from DVLA that I am no longer the owner or registered keeper.

The new owner is now seeking to register the car in France and is required to pay tax as it is treated as an import from non-EU company. Their advisor says I should state that I sold the car for say, 100€ which would form the basis of the duty payable. I’m not prepared to do this as it is untrue. What I’m struggling to comprehend is why it is not possible to gift the car?

I’ve suggested that he declare to the French authorities that he was gifted the car (true) but that the book value of the car is £x (from for example Glass’s guide) and pay any duty on that sum as an alternative.

Any suggestions?

 

[elamessa]

Ingwe I can't find any information on any french website for gifting a vehicle to a French resident.(if there is such a thing!)
It seems that which ever way you look at it customs duty/vat will have to be payed on it by the new owner as it is a vehicle that was imported from a non EU country.

 

[Ingwe]

Ingwe I can't find any information on any french website for gifting a vehicle to a French resident.(if there is such a thing!)
It seems that which ever way you look at it customs duty/vat will have to be payed on it by the new owner as it is a vehicle that was imported from a non EU country.

Yes, that’s pretty much what my research found. I understand that the French customs officials can place their own valuation of the vehicle concerned. That may be the way forward for the would-be registrant. I’m not prepared to say I accepted 100€ for the car when I didn’t. And as the transfer was in October 2021, raising an invoice or receipt now for €100, even if I accepted the money, would be unacceptable to me.

 

[HKF]

You're correct in not wanting to lie to the French authorities. I wonder who your friend's 'advisor' is that is offering him such foolish advice? One of the many unregulated and unregistered 'handholders', by any chance?

This page might give you some advice;

Importing a UK Vehicle and Registering it in France After Brexit - FrenchEntrée

If you are moving to France and want to bring your UK vehicle with you or plan to purchase a new car in the UK and import it to France, you probably have a lot of questions about how to go about this.

www.frenchentree.com

Further to this, the vehicle is now illegally in France, as it has gone past the time limit for registration. As you are no longer the owner or registered keeper, it's really up to you friend to apply for the registration and put whatever information he deems fit. He will have to pay import duty and tax on it at it's current value. It gets more complicated if it's an older car and/or you can't get a CoC for it. And, even worse, if it's a grey import.

 

[Ingwe]

You're correct in not wanting to lie to the French authorities. I wonder who your friend's 'advisor' is that is offering him such foolish advice? One of the many unregulated and unregistered 'handholders', by any chance?

This page might give you some advice;

Importing a UK Vehicle and Registering it in France After Brexit - FrenchEntrée

If you are moving to France and want to bring your UK vehicle with you or plan to purchase a new car in the UK and import it to France, you probably have a lot of questions about how to go about this.

www.frenchentree.com

Further to this, the vehicle is now illegally in France, as it has gone past the time limit for registration. As you are no longer the owner or registered keeper, it's really up to you friend to apply for the registration and put whatever information he deems fit. He will have to pay import duty and tax on it at it's current value. It gets more complicated if it's an older car and/or you can't get a CoC for it. And, even worse, if it's a grey import.

Thank you for this and the link. I don’t know who is advising our friend but there is a whole industry of these enterprises, certainly for the Dutch. We did give him a Certificate of Conformity (that cost me £75 from Audi/VW).

I think he’s just going to have to accept that he’s going to have to pay something and console himself with the fact that he’s getting a quality car, in really good condition for a song.

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[HKF]

Thank you for this and the link. I don’t know who is advising our friend but there is a whole industry of these enterprises, certainly for the Dutch. We did give him a Certificate of Conformity (that cost me £75 from Audi/VW).

I think he’s just going to have to accept that he’s going to have to pay something and console himself with the fact that he’s getting a quality car, in really good condition for a song.

The same for the English. The 'profession' doesn't exist in law and is totally unregulated. So many people get ripped off by people who know a little about everything and profess to be 'experts'. And there is no legal redress when things go wrong. It boils my p*ss!!! (excuse my French LOL!).

If he has a CoC then he's on his way to getting it registered. Personally, I'd stay away from it now that's it's an unregistered, uninsured, illegal vehicle!! It sounds harsh but that's the reality....and you don't want to be messing around the the French Douane!!

 

[Ingwe]

The same for the English. The 'profession' doesn't exist in law and is totally unregulated. So many people get ripped off by people who know a little about everything and profess to be 'experts'. And there is no legal redress when things go wrong. It boils my p*ss!!! (excuse my French LOL!).

If he has a CoC then he's on his way to getting it registered. Personally, I'd stay away from it now that's it's an unregistered, uninsured, illegal vehicle!! It sounds harsh but that's the reality....and you don't want to be messing around the the French Douane!!

Yes, I have no intention of getting further involved. If my refusal to say I received €100 offends the friendship, so be it.
With les regelements Francais, I have no intention of writing the sequel to Papillon or The Man in the Iron Mask!

 

[Widge]

In October 2021, I gave my UK registered, taxed and insured, Audi car to a Dutch friend resident in France whilst on holiday there. I had wanted to register it myself in France but, as a non-resident, this was not possible. I gave the car away for nothing and prepared a formal letter to that effect and notified the DVLA that I was no longer the owner or registered keeper of the car and provided, as required, the details of the new owner. I received written confirmation from DVLA that I am no longer the owner or registered keeper.

The new owner is now seeking to register the car in France and is required to pay tax as it is treated as an import from non-EU company. Their advisor says I should state that I sold the car for say, 100€ which would form the basis of the duty payable. I’m not prepared to do this as it is untrue. What I’m struggling to comprehend is why it is not possible to gift the car?

I’ve suggested that he declare to the French authorities that he was gifted the car (true) but that the book value of the car is £x (from for example Glass’s guide) and pay any duty on that sum as an alternative.

Any suggestions?

The book value in the uk may be £x in the glass's guide but the french authorities are more likely to use the value of that model of car in france, which will probably be higher, also not taking into accout that the car is RHD which will also reduce the real value of the car.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Thank you for this and the link. I don’t know who is advising our friend but there is a whole industry of these enterprises, certainly for the Dutch. We did give him a Certificate of Conformity (that cost me £75 from Audi/VW).

I think he’s just going to have to accept that he’s going to have to pay something and console himself with the fact that he’s getting a quality car, in really good condition for a song.

Why?

Mine was free!

I needed it to import my Audi into Spain. I did this in 2019/2020. I could have paid €100 extra for the company who did it to take it to Murcia, as they can import without the COC, whereas Alicante won't.

So I eventually got a watermarked COC from Audi, free and saved that €100.

 

[paddymcc]

Could you get him to send you 1 euro as payment now so you wouldn't be lying.

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[Ingwe]

Why?

Mine was free!

I needed it to import my Audi into Spain. I did this in 2019/2020. I could have paid €100 extra for the company who did it to take it to Murcia, as they can import without the COC, whereas Alicante won't.

So I eventually got a watermarked COC from Audi, free and saved that €100.

Why what? I needed a CoC from Audi and that was what I had to pay. I was hoping to register it in France not Spain. Neither was I using a company to import the car to France. Maybe Audi give CoC free for late model Audis. Mine was 1998!

 

[Guigsy]

The issue here is that if you could freely 'gift' things across a border without scrutiny, then nobody would ever pay any duties. Hence their insistence that you put a value on the item and someone pays the tax. This is a rare case where it's genuinely a free gift, but just because you're being generous, it doesn't mean the tax man has to be.

 

[Ingwe]

Could you get him to send you 1 euro as payment now so you wouldn't be lying.

No. It’s how it would look to the Douane. It would look like an attempt to avoid the duty payable in which I was complicit. Perhaps a bit of context will help make this clear. When we considered initially registering the car in France, the UK was still in the EU. When we realised, after receiving bad advice from a French agent, that non-residents can’t register a car in France, we decided that we’d give it away rather than scrap it. It is a really nice car. The Brit resident in France who seemed to want it never got it together. At that stage such an import would attract zero duty or VAT.
So when a Dutch resident neighbour friend wanted it we agreed and he took it away but by then the UK had left the EU snd a non-EU import attracts duty of 10% and VAT of 20%. So the owner now wants to say that he paid €100 and pay duty on that. Clearly, as an anti-avoidance measure, the Douane doesn’t recognise gifts and in such instances, as here, and will substitute the market value of the car for duty purposes. For that reason seeking now to accept 1 or 100 euros will be seen as seeking to evade the proper duty due. I’m not prepared to do this. Not moralising, just self preservation as we like going to France!

 

[Ingwe]

The issue here is that if you could freely 'gift' things across a border without scrutiny, then nobody would ever pay any duties. Hence their insistence that you put a value on the item and someone pays the tax. This is a rare case where it's genuinely a free gift, but just because you're being generous, it doesn't mean the tax man has to be.

Guigsy -on the nail. So much more succinctly then me!

 

[Coolcats]

it doesn't mean the tax man has to be.

I think your spot on there would be a notional value to the vehicle and an appropriate tax applied. What ever way it’s looked at it would still be a cheap car to have purchased

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[Dutch 68]

In October 2021, I gave my UK registered, taxed and insured, Audi car to a Dutch friend resident in France whilst on holiday there. I had wanted to register it myself in France but, as a non-resident, this was not possible. I gave the car away for nothing and prepared a formal letter to that effect and notified the DVLA that I was no longer the owner or registered keeper of the car and provided, as required, the details of the new owner. I received written confirmation from DVLA that I am no longer the owner or registered keeper.

The new owner is now seeking to register the car in France and is required to pay tax as it is treated as an import from non-EU company. Their advisor says I should state that I sold the car for say, 100€ which would form the basis of the duty payable. I’m not prepared to do this as it is untrue. What I’m struggling to comprehend is why it is not possible to gift the car?

I’ve suggested that he declare to the French authorities that he was gifted the car (true) but that the book value of the car is £x (from for example Glass’s guide) and pay any duty on that sum as an alternative.

Any suggestions?

Why not receive 100 euro’s right now from him, payed into your account, then there is no lie?

 

[Ingwe]

Why not receive 100 euro’s right now from him, payed into your account, then there is no lie?

As I see it, it is really a matter for the new owner and the customs. He should pay the duty on the notional value of the car and not try to avoid this by an after the event payment to me.

 

[Dutch 68]

See my post #13.

Yes, I understand that you will not back date or sign anything, but that’s not your problem, just receive the money now,sign nothing, so he can say he made a delayed payment and then it is further up to him to deal with it?

 

[EuroTrotters]

Why what? I needed a CoC from Audi and that was what I had to pay. I was hoping to register it in France not Spain. Neither was I using a company to import the car to France. Maybe Audi give CoC free for late model Audis. Mine was 1998!

Ours wasn’t a new car, it was a 2009. But I also obtained one for our 2003 Audi too. Both free of charge.

Maybe Audi have gone down the money grabbing route.

Anyone who buys new these days should insist on a COC on delivery.

I have read somewhere Uk manufacturers don’t offer one, so I would t buy.

I did read your original post on this. If I could of got a trailer, I would have come for it.

 

[Coolcats]

Yes, I understand that you will not back date or sign anything, but that’s not your problem, just receive the money now,sign nothing, so he can say he made a delayed payment and then it is further up to him to deal with it?

Just a thought Tax is normally paid on the value of goods not what you paid for it.

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[HKF]

Yes, I understand that you will not back date or sign anything, but that’s not your problem, just receive the money now,sign nothing, so he can say he made a delayed payment and then it is further up to him to deal with it?

Why should the OP receive money that forms part of a scam against the Douane? If his friend sends him such a payment, the best thing to do is send it straight back. HMRC might well be a pushover. The Douane most certainly are not!

 

[Ingwe]

Yes, I understand that you will not back date or sign anything, but that’s not your problem, just receive the money now,sign nothing, so he can say he made a delayed payment and then it is further up to him to deal with it?

Why does he not use the money you propose he sends me towards paying whatever duty is due? I don’t want the money; that’s why we gifted it. He needs a bill of sale. The “delayed payment“ would involve a fiction as would a bill of sale backdated or currently dated when I was not the owner.

 

[Ingwe]

I did read your original post on this. If I could of got a trailer, I would have come for it.

I wish you could have! It would have broken my heart to scrap such a lovely car that was still driving as beautifully as when new. Someone was really keen but for various reasons just never sorted things before we had leave.

 

[Widge]

In October 2021, I gave my UK registered, taxed and insured, Audi car to a Dutch friend resident in France whilst on holiday there. I had wanted to register it myself in France but, as a non-resident, this was not possible. I gave the car away for nothing and prepared a formal letter to that effect and notified the DVLA that I was no longer the owner or registered keeper of the car and provided, as required, the details of the new owner. I received written confirmation from DVLA that I am no longer the owner or registered keeper.

The new owner is now seeking to register the car in France and is required to pay tax as it is treated as an import from non-EU company. Their advisor says I should state that I sold the car for say, 100€ which would form the basis of the duty payable. I’m not prepared to do this as it is untrue. What I’m struggling to comprehend is why it is not possible to gift the car?

I’ve suggested that he declare to the French authorities that he was gifted the car (true) but that the book value of the car is £x (from for example Glass’s guide) and pay any duty on that sum as an alternative.

Any suggestions?

A couple of things, 1) it maybe simpler to do the paperwork if there had been a monetary exchange rather than a gift, in which case even customs might perfer it that way.

2) when you passed it on, did you fill in a Certificat de cession d'un véhicule d'occasion (Formulaire 15776*02)? Which you and the new owner should have completed
Becouse at the end of the day it was you that imported the car and although you have informed DVLA the french authorities will have no record of any change of ownership, therefore technically you are liable for the import duty, at least if you have filled in a 15776*2 it is a recognised document by the french authorities where a letter/receipt you may have provided is not.

personally i dont see much of a problem with providing a backdated receipt, the customs will decide if that is an acceptable value or not and charge duty appropriately to the new owner, if gifting it causes more paperwork and headaches for the person you gave it to and you fall out over it, he could quite easly say that you left the car with him and never collected it. Which could leave you with the problem of paying the duty or exporting it again.

 

[Dutch 68]

A couple of things, 1) it maybe simpler to do the paperwork if there had been a monetary exchange rather than a gift, in which case even customs might perfer it that way.

2) when you passed it on, did you fill in a Certificat de cession d'un véhicule d'occasion (Formulaire 15776*02)? Which you and the new owner should have completed
Becouse at the end of the day it was you that imported the car and although you have informed DVLA the french authorities will have no record of any change of ownership, therefore technically you are liable for the import duty, at least if you have filled in a 15776*2 it is a recognised document by the french authorities where a letter/receipt you may have provided is not.

personally i dont see much of a problem with providing a backdated receipt, the customs will decide if that is an acceptable value or not and charge duty appropriately to the new owner, if gifting it causes more paperwork and headaches for the person you gave it to and you fall out over it, he could quite easly say that you left the car with him and never collected it. Which could leave you with the problem of paying the duty or exporting it again.

I think so far it hasn’t been imported at all ?

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[Ingwe]

A couple of things, 1) it maybe simpler to do the paperwork if there had been a monetary exchange rather than a gift, in which case even customs might perfer it that way.

2) when you passed it on, did you fill in a Certificat de cession d'un véhicule d'occasion (Formulaire 15776*02)? Which you and the new owner should have completed
Becouse at the end of the day it was you that imported the car and although you have informed DVLA the french authorities will have no record of any change of ownership, therefore technically you are liable for the import duty, at least if you have filled in a 15776*2 it is a recognised document by the french authorities where a letter/receipt you may have provided is not.

personally i dont see much of a problem with providing a backdated receipt, the customs will decide if that is an acceptable value or not and charge duty appropriately to the new owner, if gifting it causes more paperwork and headaches for the person you gave it to and you fall out over it, he could quite easly say that you left the car with him and never collected it. Which could leave you with the problem of paying the duty or exporting it again.

With respect, I don’t think you’re right at your point (2). The car was never registered in France. it was registered, taxed, insured and MOT’d in the UK. The was no reason for the French authorities to have the vehicle on its records. We did not therefore import the vehicle and therefore we are not liable for any duty payable.

I think the only issue is, as several other posters have pointed out, is that the new owner, the importer wants to minimise the duty due and there is nothing wrong in that. The Douane may well consider the car is only worth €100 but that valuation isn’t guaranteed. I don’t see what extra paperwork is required by telling the truth that the car was given to him free. The Douane will take a position on the value transferred. Really, the position is as HKF put it at #21.

 

[Widge]

I think so far it hasn’t been imported at all ?

It has come from the uk to france with no intention of it going back to the uk, therefore physically it has been imported even if the paperwork hasn't been done.

There is also limit to the time a car can be imported before it is a requirement to complete all the paperwork or export it again, i also understand DVLA have been informed that it has been exported.

It is also a legal requirement for a car to be insured in France, even if it is not being used on the road for example like uk SORN. So that if for any reason anyone even a thief uses it on the road, there is third party cover.

 

[Ingwe]

It has come from the uk to france with no intention of it going back to the uk, therefore physically it has been imported even if the paperwork hasn't been done.

There is also limit to the time a car can be imported before it is a requirement to complete all the paperwork or export it again, i also understand DVLA have been informed that it has been exported.

It is also a legal requirement for a car to be insured in France, even if it is not being used on the road for example like uk SORN. So that if for any reason anyone even a thief uses it on the road, there is third party cover.

We did take it back to the UK regularly. We never intended for it not to return to the UK. It is the new owner who intends for the car never to return to the UK. The DVLA has been notified of the change of keeper. The car was insured at all times whilst I was the registered keeper.

 

[gus-lopez]

What I’m struggling to comprehend is why it is not

It is the same in Spain . There has to be an invoice with monetary value on it. It cannot be gifted there has to be an invoice even if you invent it yourself. The Spanish Government has a value for any vehicle &updated yearly.
Only thing that I know of that circumvents it is "sold as seen for repair".