EU Residents with Permanent Residence Permits and Schengen (1 Viewer)

[nicholsong]

I know this might seem a topic for only a niche part of the Fun Membership but judging by the number of responses to the 3 EHIC threads for ex-pats there are quite a number in the niche.

We are fast approach the end of the Transition period on 31st Dec. so the question of rights to travel in Schengen countries is becoming a reality.

I think it is widely recognised that those of us who are resident in EU host countries and have Temporary Resident Permits have the right to stay in their host country indefinitely. Their rights to travel in the rest of Schengen are like UK citizens limited to 90 days in 180. [For this discussion please ignore means of enforcing this].

After 5 years on Temporary Resident Permits one can apply for a Permanent Resident Permit.

What seems to be unclear is whether that entitles one to free access to all Schengen countries without time limit, just like all nationals of EU countries, except for the limit after 90 days in any one country of having to register one's stay, as has alwys been the case for all EU Citizens.

I think some countries have advised holders of their Permanent Resident Permits that their rights in Schengen are the same as their nationals. What is not clear as far as I can ascertain is whether all Schengen States have confirmed this to be the case.

I would like this thread to become a depository for confirmed facts on this right, or the contrary.

I believe 'gus-lopez' wrote an extensive piece on this, so I shall invite him to contribute.

Please can we have others' confirmed information, with sources, on whether these rights are recognised by the Schengen countries one may visit or not.

Hoping this will be a definitive site for this information.

Geoff

 

[2657]

I cannot add anything definitive to this thread but I hope that others may do so.

I do not wish to muddy the waters of this discussion but certainly in Portugal, possibly a Schengen rule, there is a Temporary Residence Permit valid for one year which is different to the Permanent Residency initially valid for 5 years and then renewable for 10 years.

I think that gus-lopez termed these as 'temporary-permanent' and 'permanent-permanent', I presume the latter is to be discussed.

 

[gus-lopez]

I believe 'gus-lopez' wrote an extensive piece on this, so I shall invite him to contribute.

This is the link from the Spanish government site in English.
https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx
Spain adopted 18.4 under the terms of WA & have started issuing the new EU wide type card. The TIE.
Therefore the rights extended to residents/ permanent residents remain exactly the same as those already held with only not being allowed to stand for EU elections or vote in them being lost.
Here in the link from the above site to the FAQ's

https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/Documents/GUIDE%20BREXIT%20eng.pdf

( bottom of page 7)



it clearly states under the question;


*****If I am a beneficiary of the Withdrawal Agreement, I am in possession of a residence document issued on the basis of that agreement and want to move to reside in another EU country, can I do so? ****

That permanent moves are subject to future agreements between the UK/Spain but that for "short stays" the schengen rules of up to 3 months remain the same & which would be for each state .

***For short stays: the rules for short stays within the Schengen area applyFor stays longer than 3 months, the national legislation of each EEA shall apply.****


Hope that this helps

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[gus-lopez]

I cannot add anything definitive to this thread but I hope that others may do so.

I do not wish to muddy the waters of this discussion but certainly in Portugal, possibly a Schengen rule, there is a Temporary Residence Permit valid for one year which is different to the Permanent Residency initially valid for 5 years and then renewable for 10 years.

I think that gus-lopez termed these as 'temporary-permanent' and 'permanent-permanent', I presume the latter is to be discussed.

Yes here after 90 days you can apply for a residents card. This gives you all rights under the EU rules but it isn't until after 1 year that most kick in & then it is after 5 years you then gain the right that you cannot be deported/asked to leave/thrown out except under 3 headings, which are the same for everywhere under EU directives, being
1)offences against the state,
2) terrorism,
3) infectious diseases/public health.
Even then it is extremely difficult & even if you were it can never be permanent, & I think that maximum period of expulsion can only be 3 years.
After 10 years ,even though the above 3 still apply, it is more or less impossible for someone to be excluded.

 

[berni109]

If your spouse is an eu state national then they are entitled to move freely and you can go with them with or without a residence permit.
If you have no residence permit (just your UK passport) there is a xx day limit in that country(local country specific law but usually 90 days) and you have to leave that country but not schengen area. Provided you are travelling with your spouse you can return on the 92nd day for another xx days limit.

 

[nicholsong]

gus-lopez

Thanks for joining the discussion with your good input.

I seem to remember when this topic came up before that there was dicussion as to whether a Permanent Residence Card entitled one to free movement to travel, not settle, beyond the 90/180 days rule.

I thought you had referred to a case brought on this point. Is that correct and what was the result? Maybe it was some other contributor.

Geoff

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[EdwardFT]

On the question of whether or not the possession of a permanent residence card will entitle you to spend more than 90 days out of 180 in other Schengen countries, does anyone know what the situation is for citizens of third countries, for example the US, Canada, Australia, NZ?
That seems to me to be relevant because it covers 1 out of 3 possibilities, namely:
1. If all else fails, we UK citizens will be in the same boat as Australians (except for not having a sunny homeland to go back to), i.e. 90 out of 180. As far as I know that is the normal status for a third country national resident in a Schengen country - the residence permit has the effect of a 90-day Schengen visa for the rest of Schengen, no more.
2. The UK and the EU may decide to make an arrangement that will allow longer stays for UK citizens in Schengen countries (other than one where they have residence). Or they may not, AFAIK it is not decided yet. If it is decided, it may or may not depend on being a permanent resident In one Schengen country.
3. Individual countries may make a better offer to U.K. citizens, probably in that case to all U.K. citizens. Such arrangements already exist for citizens of some third countries, for example there is a bilateral agreement between the USA and France that allows US citizens to stay in France as tourists for an additional 90 days after the 90 days allowed in Schengen. This might happen, my guess is it would depend on how nicely the U.K. treats visitors from other countries.

 

[Tony50]

Until Brexit is sorted isn't all guess work ? I would like to think that we have the status quo as we are currently all Europeans (us nearly !!) and we rely on our European neighbours and they rely on us for travel / work / holidays.

 

[nicholsong]

Until Brexit is sorted isn't all guess work ? I would like to think that we have the status quo as we are currently all Europeans (us nearly !!) and we rely on our European neighbours and they rely on us for travel / work / holidays.

There are non-UK people who hold Permanent Resident Permits so the position affects all not just UK Citizens and Brexit negotiations.

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[ctc]

Until Brexit is sorted isn't all guess work ? I would like to think that we have the status quo as we are currently all Europeans (us nearly !!) and we rely on our European neighbours and they rely on us for travel / work / holidays.

Guess work? After 4 years of negotiation surely its oven ready and world class.

 

[gus-lopez]

the residence permit has the effect of a 90-day Schengen visa for the rest of Schengen, no more.

No ,as I posted it gives you the right to 90 day in one state, pop next door 90 days there, pop in to another or back to the first for another 90 days. Exactly what we have now & it remains the same. Whereas subject to no individual agreements UK residents will become TCN's & only have 90 in 180 in ALL the schengen area.

gus-lopez

Thanks for joining the discussion with your good input.

I seem to remember when this topic came up before that there was dicussion as to whether a Permanent Residence Card entitled one to free movement to travel, not settle, beyond the 90/180 days rule.

I thought you had referred to a case brought on this point. Is that correct and what was the result? Maybe it was some other contributor.

Geoff

Of it was me I have forgotten but as above is what the spanish state remains the same. Permanently wandering about ,up to 90 days in anyone state ,if you want to.

 

[Pete5996]

This site explains the situation for those covered by the Withdrawal Agreement regarding access to the Schengen Area from 1/1/21. We will not be able to use the EU gates either but will not have to have passports stamped, financial enquiries etc if we produce a residency document. We will also be exempt from EES and ETIAS requirements when they are introduced.

The 'published details' link in the first paragraph downloads a PDF of the planned treatment of UK travellers not in possession of those WA advantages.

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[EdwardFT]

No ,as I posted it gives you the right to 90 day in one state, pop next door 90 days there, pop in to another or back to the first for another 90 days. Exactly what we have now & it remains the same. Whereas subject to no individual agreements UK residents will become TCN's & only have 90 in 180 in ALL the schengen area.


Of it was me I have forgotten but as above is what the spanish state remains the same. Permanently wandering about ,up to 90 days in anyone state ,if you want to.

Can you tell me please where it says that you will be able to stay up to 90 days in each state? In what you linked to and quoted, I read it otherwise, as 2 different cases:
1. For short stays (out of Spain in this case) you will be able to stay up to 90 days (no mention of "each state")
and
2. For longer stays, it depends on the legislation of each state.

 

[spikehcm681]

This website :-

Brits Living in Portugal: New Campaign Launched for Registering Residence by December 31

The Portuguese Immigration and Borders Services (SEF) together with the British Embassy in London have launched a new campaign in order to remind the UK nationals who are currently living in Portugal to register for continued residence in the country. “UK nationals who are living in Portugal, or...

www.schengenvisainfo.com

has the following (posted on 28 Oct 2020)

"Britain’s citizens resident in Portugal will continue to be permitted to travel throughout the European Union countries, using their Portuguese residency."

You can sign up to receive daily news digest here :-

Schengen.News - Latest Updates, Insights, and Analysis

Get the latest news & updates, insights, and analysis on Schengen-related topics: freedom of movement, border control, visa policies, travel, migration, and tourism.

mailing.schengenvisainfo.com

Please can we have others' confirmed information, with sources, on whether these rights are recognised by the Schengen countries one may visit or not.

Hoping this will be a definitive site for this information.

Geoff
[/QUOTE]

 

[Coolcats]

This is the link from the Spanish government site in English.
https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx
Spain adopted 18.4 under the terms of WA & have started issuing the new EU wide type card. The TIE.
Therefore the rights extended to residents/ permanent residents remain exactly the same as those already held with only not being allowed to stand for EU elections or vote in them being lost.
Here in the link from the above site to the FAQ's

https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/Documents/GUIDE%20BREXIT%20eng.pdf

( bottom of page 7)



it clearly states under the question;


*****If I am a beneficiary of the Withdrawal Agreement, I am in possession of a residence document issued on the basis of that agreement and want to move to reside in another EU country, can I do so? ****

That permanent moves are subject to future agreements between the UK/Spain but that for "short stays" the schengen rules of up to 3 months remain the same & which would be for each state .

***For short stays: the rules for short stays within the Schengen area applyFor stays longer than 3 months, the national legislation of each EEA shall apply.****


Hope that this helps

So it all down to deal or no deal...and as we await the outcome of negotiations we won’t have a definitive answer on what is actually going to occur.

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[jumar]

So it all down to deal or no deal...and as we await the outcome of negotiations we won’t have a definitive answer on what is actually going to occur.

As Spanish residents we know what's written in the Withdrawal Agreement which is nothing to do with whats currently happening between the UK and the EU...both parties are discussing Trade and security along with other minor issues....the Freedom of Movement issues are agreed and should be known to all who plan to visit Schengen as from January 1st 2021...

 

[Coolcats]

I’m not going down the political route of the attitude to the withdrawal agreement by the current PM and his advisers, we have to wait and see what the final outcome is.

I hope whatever the outcome is that by the end of the negotiation it is something that we can all live with and we are not badly effected by what may or may not happen.

 

[weejocky]

I’m not going down the political route of the attitude to the withdrawal agreement by the current PM and his advisers, we have to wait and see what the final outcome is.

lets all hope the agreement benefits the UK as a whole, because who really cares about those who have left the country already. Not me, nor those brokering the deal.

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[spikehcm681]

lets all hope the agreement benefits the UK as a whole, because who really cares about those who have left the country already. Not me, nor those brokering the deal.

Some Motorhomers (including me) live in the UK for most of the year -but have had Residency of a EU/Schengen Country so that they comply with the "staying for more than 90 days" rule.
I for one am interested in any substantiated information which will help me plan for when we can eventually travel again (hopefully) in the New Year.
We're probably in a small minority but this forum was a valuable source of information when we were transiting Europe in March - and sharing info is one of the reasons I joined. Nicholsong mentioned that we are a "niche" in his original posting.

 

[nicholsong]

lets all hope the agreement benefits the UK as a whole, because who really cares about those who have left the country already. Not me, nor those brokering the deal.

There are various combinations of an individual's residence or part residence , as Spike has demonstrated above, and they depend on the varying rules of different countries and combinations of countries.

There are those of us who wish to maximise the combination within the rules to suit our ways of life.

There is no clear definition of 'those that have left the country already' as any of us with UK Nationality may return without any restrictions e.g. I to my house in London, when family circumstances permit.

Those of us in such situations are all entitled to arrange our affairs within the rules, but first we need to know the rules.

Now please leave us to share the information amongst ourslves.

Geoff

 

[spikehcm681]

The link below takes you to a UK Govt. website entitled "Living in Europe".

It was updated today and I received an email telling me that this had happened. You can sign up to have these emails sent to you - and even specify which country you are interested in.

I assume that there will be a wealth of information on this site in the coming months - whatever the outcome.

Living in Europe: citizens' rights if you moved before 1 January 2021

Information for UK nationals living in the EU, EEA EFTA countries and Switzerland since before 1 January 2021, including guidance on residency and healthcare.

www.gov.uk

“In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[gus-lopez]

Can you tell me please where it says that you will be able to stay up to 90 days in each state? In what you linked to and quoted, I read it otherwise, as 2 different cases:
1. For short stays (out of Spain in this case) you will be able to stay up to 90 days (no mention of "each state")
and
2. For longer stays, it depends on the legislation of each state.

In the first link https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx
It states;

***
"All UK nationals and their family members who are third-country nationals resident in Spain before the end of the transition period will maintain in perpetuity their rights arising from the application of EU Law (except for the right to vote in or stand for elections to the European Parliament and the exercise of the EU Citizen's Initiative). " ***
I have the right to stay in each EU state for up to 90 days at present: The above statement confirms that it remains the same 'in perpetuity'.
your number 2 " For longer stays, it depends on the legislation of each state." is talking about staying over 90 days.

lets all hope the agreement benefits the UK as a whole, because who really cares about those who have left the country already. Not me, nor those brokering the deal.

How's France?

 

[nicholsong]

In the first link https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx
It states;

***
"All UK nationals and their family members who are third-country nationals resident in Spain before the end of the transition period will maintain in perpetuity their rights arising from the application of EU Law (except for the right to vote in or stand for elections to the European Parliament and the exercise of the EU Citizen's Initiative). " ***
I have the right to stay in each EU state for up to 90 days at present: The above statement confirms that it remains the same 'in perpetuity'.
your number 2 " For longer stays, it depends on the legislation of each state." is talking about staying over 90 days.


How's France?

Gus

You quote - 'will maintain in perpetuity their rights arising from the application of EU Law'

One would have to be sure exactly what rights EU Law conferred and the source before relying on that statement to assert that it permits unlimited stay in Schengen.

[EDIT] I would be very happy if you are right, but I would also want to be on solid ground if needed, as breaching Schengen rules could ruin our life here.

Geoff

 

[Tony50]

Guess work? After 4 years of negotiation surely its oven ready and world class.

I mean't until with have a Total Agreement which we haven't

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[gus-lopez]

Gus

You quote - 'will maintain in perpetuity their rights arising from the application of EU Law'

One would have to be sure exactly what rights EU Law conferred and the source before relying on that statement to assert that it permits unlimited stay in Schengen.

[EDIT] I would be very happy if you are right, but I would also want to be on solid ground if needed, as breaching Schengen rules could ruin our life here.

Geoff

My understanding is that, apart from the right to either stand or vote in EU elections which is common sense really, the existing rights that were obtained originally under EU directives are covered by the Vienna Convention on Treaties that states rights already enshrined cannot be lost by alteration/removal/cancellation of the treaty that originally conferred them.
It would probably need a test case to confirm it though ?

 

[Chris]

More important than trade, security or freedom of movement is whether we can still play Euromillions after 31st Dec?

 

[spitfire]

I mean't until with have a Total Agreement which we haven't

Indeed we have reference residents in the EU at present which is what is being discussed in this thread . but like everything it is the interpretation of it which is in discussion .
This thread is solely talking about EU residents

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[Coolcats]

More important than trade, security or freedom of movement is whether we can still play Euromillions after 31st Dec?

Yes

 

[Chris]

Yes

Are you sure?

True story - This was one of the considerations of one of my work colleagues at the time of the In/Out vote

 

[Tony50]

Indeed we have reference residents in the EU at present which is what is being discussed in this thread . but like everything it is the interpretation of it which is in discussion .
This thread is solely talking about EU residents

"O" my fault for not adhering !!

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