Down plating help please

[Lanerboy]

Hi all

Could any of you tell me what is involved in down plating your motorhome, i have a mate who has a concorde on a iveco chassis 7.5 ton.
He wants to tow a car behind it but he is saying this this takes him over the weight limit for his normal licence with grandfather rights (aged 49)

Is it just a paper exercise or does he need to do anything to the vehicle.

He could speak to svtech but said i will ask on here 1st to see if anyone has done it

Many thanks

 

[lorger]

I downplated one of my vans when I sold it due to new owner not having C1, all I did then was weigh the van then send the filled in v5 with weight ticket and new weight. The new owners received the v5 a few weeks later with new weight, all done free of charge.
Depending on car he plans to tow but I think he can tow 750kg with a 7.5t van on his c1.

 

[Jev88]

www.vanweightengineering.com can advise.

 

[funflair]

Would he gain anything by downrating?

1. The capability of the towing vehicle​

The chassis plate on the vehicle (see table in Section 7) states the maximum weights allowed - the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the Gross Combination Weight (GCW).

The vehicle handbook will either repeat what is on the chassis plate, or for convenience, might directly specify the maximum weight of trailer (eg 750kg) which is allowed to be towed. The V5C registration certificate often shows this too, under sections O1 and O2 (depending on whether trailer has brakes or not). Exceeding any of the above weights is likely to be construed as using a vehicle in a dangerous condition.

Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the ‘actual’ weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW.


From here, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van-the-basics

 

[Pausim]

There is a difference between C1 and C1E license categories. The C1 allows a trailer up to 750kg but this is an absolute trailer limit. The C1E normally allows trailers of more than 750kg but you still can not exceed the total limit of 8250kg (7500+750). If your friend has C1E reducing the vehicle weight should allow him to tow more than 750kg but if he only has C1 he will still be limited to 750kg. The ”grandfather rights” usually include E.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[cmcardle75]

Would he gain anything by downrating?

1. The capability of the towing vehicle​

The chassis plate on the vehicle (see table in Section 7) states the maximum weights allowed - the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the Gross Combination Weight (GCW).

The vehicle handbook will either repeat what is on the chassis plate, or for convenience, might directly specify the maximum weight of trailer (eg 750kg) which is allowed to be towed. The V5C registration certificate often shows this too, under sections O1 and O2 (depending on whether trailer has brakes or not). Exceeding any of the above weights is likely to be construed as using a vehicle in a dangerous condition.

Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the ‘actual’ weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW.


From here, https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van-the-basics

However, this is a driving licence issue, rather than a weights issue. Driving licence entitlements are based on potential permitted weights, not actual.

 

[cmcardle75]

Another possibility is to take a C1+E test (or C+E), which will remove the 8250kg restriction.

 

[Lanerboy]

The mh is plated ar 7500kg and the car and trailer is about 2000kg so train weight of 9500kg
????????

 

[Pausim]

Another possibility is to take a C1+E test (or C+E), which will remove the 8250kg restriction.

I think the C1E total limit for vehicle plus trailer is still 8250kg so it might need to be a C test.

The mh is plated ar 7500kg and the car and trailer is about 2000kg so train weight of 9500kg
????????

That would mean lowering the plated weight of the motorhome to at least 6250kg.

 

[cmcardle75]

I think the C1E total limit for vehicle plus trailer is still 8250kg so it might need to be a C test.

That would mean lowering the plated weight of the motorhome to at least 6250kg.

I think you'd only need to downplate the GTW. The main MAM could remain at 7500kg.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[cmcardle75]

I think the C1E total limit for vehicle plus trailer is still 8250kg so it might need to be a C test.

C1E is 12,000kg total. It is the 107 restriction that makes it 8250kg.

 

[Speve]

I think after reading all these posts you would be best consulting one of the companies such as SV Tech to get a solution

 

[Mike123]

+1 for SV Tech, very impressed with the service.

 

[MichaelT]

I would think the problem is if you downplate will there be enough payload available to be able to use the van?

 

[Pausim]

I think you'd only need to downplate the GTW. The main MAM could remain at 7500kg.

I would have thought that if he reduces the GTW he would reduce the the weight of the trailer that can be towed but it would not affect the limitation of the driving license. The MAM plus the weight of the trailer must not exceed the the GTW or the limitations of the licence. If he has a C1 license that limits him to 8250kg and he wants to tow a trailer weighing 2000kg he needs the MAM/Revenue Weight to be less than 6250 (8250-2000). He is limited by the restriction on his license, I don’t think we know the MAM so this may or may not be an issue.

I agree with the get professional advice opinion.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[cmcardle75]

I would have thought that if he reduces the GTW he would reduce the the weight of the trailer that can be towed but it would not affect the limitation of the driving license. The MAM plus the weight of the trailer must not exceed the the GTW or the limitations of the licence. If he has a C1 license that limits him to 8250kg and he wants to tow a trailer weighing 2000kg he needs the MAM/Revenue Weight to be less than 6250 (8250-2000). He is limited by the restriction on his license, I don’t think we know the MAM so this may or may not be an issue.

I agree with the get professional advice opinion.

I disagree that the vehicle MAM needs to be reduced. You don't just take the GTW from MAM to produce a maximum trailer weight. The only weights that are important for overloading of a vehicle are axle weights, MAM and GTW. No axle may exceed its axle weight. No vehicle (including both tractor and trailer) may exceed its MAM. No vehicle combination may exceed the GTW of the tractor.

Occasionally a tractor manufacturer also specifies a recommended maximum trailer weight, which is often the difference of MAM and GTW, particularly for cars. However, this doesn't have any direct legal effect, but might be considered supporting evidence of dangerous loading. Even if a maximum trailer weight recommendation was specified, there would be no need to reduce this declared value when down-plating and the value doesn't appear on the plate anyway, just in the user's manual and occasionally on the V5C.

It is perfectly legal to tow a trailer considerably in excess of the difference of GTW and MAM, provided that the tractor unit is under its MAM by the appropriate amount.

However, licence restrictions do require the vehicle combination to not be PERMITTED to be above the reference weight, regardless of the actual weights of the vehicle components. Hence, restricting the GTW to 8250kg should mean that a C1E (107) driver can drive it with any trailer weight that doesn't result in exceeding 8250kg GTW. They can also drive it solo at 7500kg. Without downplating, they would be illegal, even without actually exceeding 8250kg.

An an example, if the tractor unit was downplated to 7500kg MAM, 8250kg GTW:
Actual weight 6250kg + 2000kg = OK (for C1E & C1E(107)
Actual weight 7000kg + 2000kg = Illegal for all (9000kg GTW exceeds 8250kg)
Actual weight 7500kg + 750kg = OK (for C1, C1E & C1E(107)
Actual weight 7500kg (no trailer) = OK (for C1, C1E & C1E(107)

 

[gus-lopez]

The mh is plated ar 7500kg and the car and trailer is about 2000kg so train weight of 9500kg
????????

The easiest way is to weigh it now as it is. That will tell you if it is possible. I very much doubt it though. It might well have a towing capacity of 3000kgs but unless you have the C licence & not grandfather rights it can't be done.

It is perfectly legal to tow a trailer considerably in excess of the difference of GTW and MAM, provided that the tractor unit is under its MAM by the appropriate amount.

Yes but I doubt whether it would be possible to get the Concorde weight down low enough to allow 2 tonnes on the trailer. I'm alwyas amazed on here by the amount of people with these with a 7,500kgs mam,where after the extras are fitted,are right on the limit. Hardly anything in the way of payload .

 

[Pausim]

I disagree that the vehicle MAM needs to be reduced. You don't just take the GTW from MAM to produce a maximum trailer weight. The only weights that are important for overloading of a vehicle are axle weights, MAM and GTW. No axle may exceed its axle weight. No vehicle (including both tractor and trailer) may exceed its MAM. No vehicle combination may exceed the GTW of the tractor.

Occasionally a tractor manufacturer also specifies a recommended maximum trailer weight, which is often the difference of MAM and GTW, particularly for cars. However, this doesn't have any direct legal effect, but might be considered supporting evidence of dangerous loading. Even if a maximum trailer weight recommendation was specified, there would be no need to reduce this declared value when down-plating and the value doesn't appear on the plate anyway, just in the user's manual and occasionally on the V5C.

It is perfectly legal to tow a trailer considerably in excess of the difference of GTW and MAM, provided that the tractor unit is under its MAM by the appropriate amount.

However, licence restrictions do require the vehicle combination to not be PERMITTED to be above the reference weight, regardless of the actual weights of the vehicle components. Hence, restricting the GTW to 8250kg should mean that a C1E (107) driver can drive it with any trailer weight that doesn't result in exceeding 8250kg GTW. They can also drive it solo at 7500kg. Without downplating, they would be illegal, even without actually exceeding 8250kg.

An an example, if the tractor unit was downplated to 7500kg MAM, 8250kg GTW:
Actual weight 6250kg + 2000kg = OK (for C1E & C1E(107)
Actual weight 7000kg + 2000kg = Illegal for all (9000kg GTW exceeds 8250kg)
Actual weight 7500kg + 750kg = OK (for C1, C1E & C1E(107)
Actual weight 7500kg (no trailer) = OK (for C1, C1E & C1E(107)

The GTW is based on the maximum weight the engine and transmission can pull. It doesn’t matter what the proportions are between the vehicle and trailer as long as the total is not exceeded. If you reduce the GTW you just reduce the total combined weight and I don’t see how that helps. We do not know what the GTW of the vehicle in question is, the op says his friend’s license is the limiting factor.

The op’s friend is limited by his license so assuming this is a C1E(107) that means he is limited to a combined vehicle and trailer weight of 8250kg. His vehicle has a Revenue Weight/MPM of 7500kg, which leaves him with only 750kg for the trailer. If he wants to tow a 2000kg trailer he would have to reduce the Revenue Weight/MPM to less than 6000kg. The GTW has no bearing on this license weight calculation.

 

[cmcardle75]

The op’s friend is limited by his license so assuming this is a C1E(107) that means he is limited to a combined vehicle and trailer weight of 8250kg. His vehicle has a Revenue Weight/MPM of 7500kg, which leaves him with only 750kg for the trailer. If he wants to tow a 2000kg trailer he would have to reduce the Revenue Weight/MPM to less than 6000kg. The GTW has no bearing on this license weight calculation.

He doesn't have to reduce revenue weight/MPM to 5500kg. He only needs to reduce actual weight to this value. He only needs to reduce plated GTW (as opposed to actual combination weight) to 8250kg as licences are different in that they apply to permitted values, not actual values. By reducing GTW to 8250kg, this is achieved. There is not, and has never been, a limit on trailer weight of GTW-tractor MAM, unless specified specifically by the manufacturer and even then with uncertain effect and not applicable here, as it wouldn't reduce with GTW reduction.

 

[cmcardle75]

The easiest way is to weigh it now as it is. That will tell you if it is possible. I very much doubt it though. It might well have a towing capacity of 3000kgs but unless you have the C licence & not grandfather rights it can't be done.

Yes but I doubt whether it would be possible to get the Concorde weight down low enough to allow 2 tonnes on the trailer. I'm alwyas amazed on here by the amount of people with these with a 7,500kgs mam,where after the extras are fitted,are right on the limit. Hardly anything in the way of payload .

Yes, all this presupposes that the motorhome can be dropped to 8250kg - trailer load, i.e. 6250kg, assuming the trailer really weighs 2000kg even with a car on it. That's a proper large car there. A small car and trailer could be had for about half that.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Speve]

That's a proper large car there. A small car and trailer could be had for about half that.

We Have a Fiat Panda 4x4 @ approx 1100kg and twin wheel trailer @ 500kg

 

[cmcardle75]

We Have a Fiat Panda 4x4 @ approx 1100kg and twin wheel trailer @ 500kg

Most Pandas and trailers could squeeze into 1300kg, which is considerably under 2000kg. It sounds like the 4x4 is a bit heavier and you've gone for a heavy quality trailer!

 

[Speve]

Most Pandas and trailers could squeeze into 1300kg, which is considerably under 2000kg. It sounds like the 4x4 is a bit heavier and you've gone for a heavy quality trailer!

Yes a well built trailer standard Panda is around 940-1090 kg