Diesel, the future?

funflair

funflair

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OK I don't think there is much argument that electric is ultimately the future for vehicle propulsion or maybe there is, BUT in the shorter term internal combustion engines are here for a good while yet even with a ban on Petrol and Diesel in 2040 it doesn't mean the death of internal combustion as it just means that these existing fuels will have to be teamed up with electric propulsion ie Hybrid.

I see quite regularly statements about not being able to drive a Diesel vehicle here there and everywhere so it got me thinking what are the facts and numbers behind this and do they point to the death of Diesel.

I started reading this article and found it very interesting

Diesels have indeed had a bit of a bashing over the last few years basically since the world became more concerned with NOx than CO2 which incidentally is lower with Diesel than Petrol engines, so the choice seems to be Kill the planet or Kill the population.

The latest Euro6 standard demands that NOx levels for Diesel engines are within a whisker of Petrol engines at 80mg/km for Diesel vs 60mg/km for petrol while the CO limit for Diesel is 50% of the Petrol figure.

So where can you drive a Diesel now and in the future? well as I understand it the latest Euro6 diesels are allowed in the London ULEZ Ultra Low Emission Zone or any other LEZ for that matter.

So would I buy a new Diesel powered motorhome YES, I might wait for Euro7 though;)

Martin
 
tacr2man said:
That was more to do with the problems they were having with them and warranty levels compared with the very reliable petrol engines they were known for :)
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Not sure about that as it was a global decision. Thankfully no reliability problems with my Forester. (hopefully it will stay that way!!)
 
Issue with crankshafts in some of their diesels
Diesels were never their thing and they were late entrants
 
As you know Martin, I am a big fan of hybrid for commercials and this is where the basis for MHs always has come from. I think commercials are suitable because they have the capacity to accomodate the drive train and the batteries and you are not after outright performance. Indeed Our MHs can easily manage with less than 100bhp to trundle down most roads and motorways but we want the uplift in torque to get us up hills and away from roundabouts etc.

Iveco unsuccessfully lobbied the EU for years to increase the licence weight of '3500 kgs' to 4250kgs for hybrids. IMHO this is the answer.

Jon
 
Spain appears to be going down the "2050 nothing but electric allowed on roads route ".Not even hybrids. Like to see that one.:LOL:
 
My problem with this electric vehicle thing is that a very important factor seems to have been totally ignored. That is the infrastructure and generation capacity needed to charge all these electric vehicles. The idea you can replace a country wide network of filling stations with a load of electrical sockets is nonsense. Add to that the cyclical nature of vehicle charging and the electrical distribution systems we have at present simply aren't up to the job. My thoughts are that a far more sensible route is to use hydrogen. This has the advantage that it uses existing well understood fuel cell technology. Hydrogen can be produced easily and locally to a generation source, especially via green generation technology (wind/pv) etc and can be produced even more effectively at times when the generation is not otherwise required. I exclude natural gas derived hydrogen of course. Filling stations deal with the distribution of this energy as they do today. It answers the problems of vehicle owners living in cities where providing a socket at each parking place is a non-starter and removes the infrastructure (HV lines, etc etc) requirements in one fell swoop. Its other advantage is that the whole package is lighter than a standard hybrid or battery ev. For motorhomes would also provide electrical power for all the onboard goodies without the need for an EHU.

The biggest problem at the moment is the vehicle manufacturers because they don't have to bear the cost of upgrades to the electrical generation infrastructure necessary for mass market ev use. Its cheaper and easier for them to just produce battery cars and leave the supply problem in the hands of governments, ie you and me.

There are of course disadvantages relating to the lower power density of hydrogen etc. this article gives a good overall view. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle. . You will note however that nowhere in this article does it refer to the fact that a suitably sized electrical generation and distribution system does not exist in ANY country to equal the stored power density of the existing petrol/diesel filling station system. For example the amount of surplus generation capacity in the UK has decreased substantially since the electrical supply system was privatised and several times in recent years has been unable to keep up with existing demands never mind adding in charging millions of EVs. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ea...-into-the-red-for-first-time-next-winter.html
 
jonegood said:
As you know Martin, I am a big fan of hybrid for commercials and this is where the basis for MHs always has come from. I think commercials are suitable because they have the capacity to accomodate the drive train and the batteries and you are not after outright performance. Indeed Our MHs can easily manage with less than 100bhp to trundle down most roads and motorways but we want the uplift in torque to get us up hills and away from roundabouts etc.

Iveco unsuccessfully lobbied the EU for years to increase the licence weight of '3500 kgs' to 4250kgs for hybrids. IMHO this is the answer.

Jon
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I am sure that would work Jon but as you suggest the operators are not going to loose the extra weight from their payload so there need to be a desire at a higher level to make it work.

Martin
 
funflair said:
I am sure that would work Jon but as you suggest the operators are not going to loose the extra weight from their payload so there need to be a desire at a higher level to make it work.

Martin
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Agreed and this desire will come from neccessity.

Faced with increasingly stiff targets and generation limitations and the financial constraints - what is easier than fitting a smaller engine and bolting an electric motor to it.

But I dont believe that any country will have the infr
 
ABZSteve said:
Did you have a power cut :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
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He's in Morocco so anything could have happened, I'm giving it 24 hours before sending out the search party.

Martin

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The interesting point with Electric motorhomes is the batteries in my opinion. Generally we strive towards a large house battery bank and solar to charge it. It seems to me that there is a solution out of the combination of the 2 requirements in its own hybrid use scenario. We could benefit from larger house banks, better charging via grid and solar as well as an electrical drive train. Gross weights could be relicensed to cover the extra battery weight. Of course the market is not really big enough for the investment by manufactures.
 
funflair said:
He's in Morocco so anything could have happened, I'm giving it 24 hours before sending out the search party.

Martin
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Sorry about that.

I really agree with @Robin McHood , If you ever been in a large transport operation or too any number of the bunker sites around - the amount of diesel used is staggering. Just look at IDS Calais, constant queues and as we all know we can pump 100 litres in about 5 minutes - so 1200 litres per hour x number of pumps. It does need addressing bu I just don't think any country is anywhere near having that amount of electricity.

Jon
 
sallylillian said:
The interesting point with Electric motorhomes is the batteries in my opinion. Generally we strive towards a large house battery bank and solar to charge it. It seems to me that there is a solution out of the combination of the 2 requirements in its own hybrid use scenario. We could benefit from larger house banks, better charging via grid and solar as well as an electrical drive train. Gross weights could be relicensed to cover the extra battery weight. Of course the market is not really big enough for the investment by manufactures.
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I couldnt agree more Michael. The only real issue is payload on the smaller commercials, just requires an easing of the licensing regulations
 
Shame you re not here Martin. You would love it, so many interesting MHs that you dont see at home and 10 amps out of 200watts in January!!
 
jonegood said:
Shame you re not here Martin. You would love it, so many interesting MHs that you dont see at home and 10 amps out of 200watts in January!!
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One day(y)

Martin

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I think there may be a good case for hybrid motorhomes, except for the payload problem if 3.5t. Charging en-route is impractical, even if the infrastructure is improved, because of the time it takes to charge and probable need to detour.

The consequence may mean a greater desire for EHU (practical charging takes time) and might scare some site owners. Wilding may not decrease because the ICE could be used to travel, leaving plenty of ‘leccy for wherever you stop. Forget solar, though, you would need several kWh of power to charge the batteries and the roof is not large enough.
 
Hybrid is OK in cars as they just get a bit heavier but it still doesn't impinge on someones licence to drive the vehicle, as the chassis for Motorhomes comes from commercial applications that is where it has to start and it has already seen stated the business users that buy these commercial chassis as vans or flat beds are not going to accept a half ton reduction in payload so the law on plating has to change to allow the development to happen.

Martin
 
I think the future is in ultra clean engines. I heard Bosch had a diesel injection system in development that makes the engine as clean as petrols and with less Co2.

Batteries are just not good enough and may not ever be. So many problems, where is all the millions of tons of lithium going to come from? Where will it all go when we've finished with it? Landfill? At least petrol and diesel engines get rid (burn) their own waste. (y)
 
two said:
Forget solar, though, you would need several kWh of power to charge the batteries and the roof is not large enough.
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This surely depends what voltage you run at. I think a CV roof designed with solar in mind could generate a fair few watts, dont forgot you are only trying to supplement the power plant not replace it totally.
 
Richard and Ann said:
I think the future is in ultra clean engines. I heard Bosch had a diesel injection system in development that makes the engine as clean as petrols and with less Co2.

Batteries are just not good enough and may not ever be. So many problems, where is all the millions of tons of lithium going to come from? Where will it all go when we've finished with it? Landfill? At least petrol and diesel engines get rid (burn) their own waste. (y)
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Don't you realise the issue with Diesel is that it doesnt burn all its waste - particulates.

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On this subject, loads of French Motorhomes in Morocco, the majority of which dont seem to have crit-air stickers.
 
Do you mean here or in France?

Ive just been looking through the categories on the 5 pages official listing and can't see any reference to or description of a Camping Car on it.
 
jonegood said:
Do you mean here or in France?

Ive just been looking through the categories on the 5 pages official listing and can't see any reference to or description of a Camping Car on it.
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I just meant unless you want to go in the centre of Paris and possibly a couple of other big towns there is little point in having one for France, now get out and enjoy yourselves or is it raining.

Martin

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