Design or Disaster?

[Blackadder]

Off on our second trip tomorrow in our Travelvan T680g which was bought new Oct2018 - our first motor-home. I drained the boiler etc. during the recent cold spell so today I started to refill everything. Having waited until the sink and washroom taps were flowing properly I went outside to check the water level and to my surprise there was water pouring out of the van in the area of the nearside wheel-arch. Then I realised that I had forgotten about the shower! Since the moving wall in the bathroom was "closed" the shower head was folded back against the wall so water was being sprayed down the rear wall of the shower compartment and most of it was escaping to the ground around the nearside rear wheel.
This van has only been used for 2 days and the leak is not small. My thoughts are that either it's supposed to do that (the assumption being that, in normal use the shower head is pointing away from the wall) or an entire seal is missing. But which? Any Travelvan owners or Burstner experts out there know the answer?
I called the dealer and they didn't know until they look at it; not surprising given the huge range of models they all sell these days. It's booked in for them to have a look but I don't want to waste a day driving up there just to be told "they all do that".
ps: yes, the water which goes down the drain holes in the shower tray finds it's way successfully to the waste tank.

 

[RogerThat]

I don't want to waste a day driving up there just to be told "they all do that".

Is FaceTime an option? So you can show them what's happening?

 

[pappajohn]

Sounds more to me like the boiler dump valve is open.
The dump pipe could exit anywhere under the van and not necessarily below the boiler.

I'm assuming the taps where off when you went to check the water level.

 

[Blackadder]

The dump valve and the drain tap are closed; the water is escaping just aft of that. Yes I had turned the taps off - except for the shower which I had forgotten about.
I think the dealer understood what was happening; it's just that there are so many models and variations, the guy I spoke to didn't know if it was a "design feature" or a rare lapse in teutonic workmanship. Having said that, Facetime isn't an option, or anything similar on an alternative device. As my daughter often sighs " oh dear Pa, you're not from the internet generation are you".

 

[pappajohn]

Certainly won't be a design feature either..... Water running freely down the back of a shower tray.!
When taking a shower water won't avoid that wall.
I wonder what sort of damage would have been done this year had you not noticed it now?

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[pappajohn]

I've just had another thought.....
You said the shower head was trapped which means it was still attached to the hose and presumably still on its hook.
It's possible the lowest point of the hose, below the shower tray, still contained water and at some point had frozen and popped a joint.
The water you saw flowing out could have been contained on the floor and leaking out where it could.
Assuming your taps have microswitchs the water flow would stop regardless of an open pipe if all taps are closed.
If its a pressurised system the pump would run continuously.

Shower head should always be removed when draining down and the hose blown down to expell water and laid in the tray.

 

[2657]

I've just had another thought.....
You said the shower head was trapped which means it was still attached to the hose and presumably still on its hook.
It's possible the lowest point of the hose, below the shower tray, still contained water and at some point had frozen and popped a joint.
The water you saw flowing out could have been contained on the floor and leaking out where it could.
Assuming your taps have microswitchs the water flow would stop regardless of an open pipe if all taps are closed.
If its a pressurised system the pump would run continuously.

Shower head should always be removed when draining down and the hose blown down to expell water and laid in the tray.

That would be my guess, I forgot to drain the shower pipe, which drooped below the tap, on a caravan and it popped the connectors out of the tap and split the body of it.

Mine was a pull out shower hose but I think the principle would be the same, water trapped in the pipe.

 

[TinaLes]

I hope @Blackadder you get this sorted by the dealer, although it doesn't sound right that the shower tray is not fully sealed around all edges, if I have read this correctly, a picture would help maybe.

I am still learning every day on here, just when you think you have things sussed out, another new angle flies past.
I thought that draining down for winter meant, opening dump valve in fresh water storage, opening dump valve to boiler & services, then opening ALL taps & shower valve, raising the shower head to allow water to escape etc.
Was I ignorant to think that any small amount of water left in the low areas of the pipes even if frozen, with all the taps open,would not be a problem as there was room for the water to expand, so not causing pipes or connectors to split open?
There you go, yet another example of me being the sacrificial lamb in this winter drain down debate.
Les (in with both feet)

 

[Blackadder]

I hope @Blackadder you get this sorted by the dealer, although it doesn't sound right that the shower tray is not fully sealed around all edges, if I have read this correctly, a picture would help maybe.

I am still learning every day on here, just when you think you have things sussed out, another new angle flies past.
I thought that draining down for winter meant, opening dump valve in fresh water storage, opening dump valve to boiler & services, then opening ALL taps & shower valve, raising the shower head to allow water to escape etc.
Was I ignorant to think that any small amount of water left in the low areas of the pipes even if frozen, with all the taps open,would not be a problem as there was room for the water to expand, so not causing pipes or connectors to split open?
There you go, yet another example of me being the sacrificial lamb in this winter drain down debate.
Les (in with both feet)

If I can work out how to add a picture I will. If you're not familiar with the travelvan, the wheel arch is in the shower compartment and I suspect this is where the water is getting out - this is about a foot higher than the actual shower tray.
As for the water freezing in the hose, I'm with you 100%. I did exactly as you describe being under the impression that raising the shower head would empty the hose (wonderful thing, gravity). All the taps were left open halfway between hot and cold so yes, I would have thought that any water would have space to expand. Oh, and I had a small oil-filled radiator in the van to keep the temp above 5C. I suppose something could have frozen outside the insulated enclosure but this is Somerset; did it really get that cold? Oh well, we'll just have to wait & see...

 

[Lenny HB]

It wouldn't completely suprise me if if was a design problem. We had a Hobby caravan after the first time we used it I hosed the loo down with the shower hose and had water flooding under the bed and running outside the van. Even though the loo was in the shower compartment they hadn't bothered to seal around the loo.

Having said that Burstner are part of the Hymer group so I expect them to use similar shower trays where there is a lip from the tray that goes up behind the shower wall.

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[Devon Sue]

Have you previously used your shower without the problem? We had a (fortunately small) leak underneath the washroom furniture in our brand new Ixeo 680g. It turned out that one of the hose connectors hadn't been fully snapped into place and we had a leak from the joint when the tap was running.

 

[2657]

If I can work out how to add a picture I will. If you're not familiar with the travelvan, the wheel arch is in the shower compartment and I suspect this is where the water is getting out - this is about a foot higher than the actual shower tray.
As for the water freezing in the hose, I'm with you 100%. I did exactly as you describe being under the impression that raising the shower head would empty the hose (wonderful thing, gravity). All the taps were left open halfway between hot and cold so yes, I would have thought that any water would have space to expand. Oh, and I had a small oil-filled radiator in the van to keep the temp above 5C. I suppose something could have frozen outside the insulated enclosure but this is Somerset; did it really get that cold? Oh well, we'll just have to wait & see...

I think that I may have misunderstood your original post.

As I understand it now the shower was operating when you filled up the water and spraying around inside the shower cubicle, this should not leak, that's what a shower cubicle is for.

Did the leak stop when you turned the shower off?

Apologies in advance if I have got the scenario wrong.

 

[jtp890]

With water drained down, throw a bucket of water round base of shower, if still leaking tray problem, if not blown pipe connection.
Good luck,
Jim

 

[Blackadder]

Sorry - been away for a few days...

It doesn't leak if the shower is operating but is pointed away from the back wall or the top of the wheel-arch. I guess that eliminates a blown hose.
So, I'm back to the question whether the back wall of the shower (and/or the join between the wall and the wheel-arch) is supposed to be sealed. One thing I hadn't registered until we were away this week is that there appears to be some sort of air outlet (heater?) in the vertical wall of the wheel-arch moulding which suggests that part of the shower enclosure is not designed to be totally water-tight. Also, this last 3 days has shown that, whilst the top of the wheel-arch in the shower enclosure gets wet, during normal use no water appears outside the van. So, either it is leaking but not enough to pour out or that's the way it's supposed to be. Hopefully the dealer will be able to tell me for sure
Anyway, thanks for all the input.
Baldrick

 

[Blackadder]

Final Answer - After 3 days (and disassembling the back of the shower three times) the dealers fixer realised that the water was coming out at the back of the toilet. If sufficient volume hit the back wall of the shower it flooded the top of the wheelarch moulding and overwhelmed a small lip at the back/side before leaking out at the back of the toilet which was not sealed. Small volumes of water didn't do this (except I imagine over a few years quite a bit would find it's way there). Presumably Burstner did not foresee anyone spraying the back wall of the shower directly. The back of the toilet is now sealed and you can throw a bucket of water at the wall with no leaks. Not a brilliant piece of design!

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[Alanben]

We have a Nexxo 690, which has the same bathroom set up. There is a lot of sealant squiging out from the back of the toilet, so I presume that the previous owner had the same problem. But I found that we had a leak from the door frame. water coming down the shower wall would collect on the shoulder of the shower tray and flow around to the door where it could escape and run across the floor of the van. The remedy was to seal around the tray shoulder and down the door frame. I like the whole set up of the shower room its a great use of space.