"Camie" the AWD Campervan

[TheMobileWanderer]

I suspect it dates back to early caravans and 12v car battery supply hooked up. Its harder to combine systems of different voltages.

Qwin; I used the same terminology (combine systems), that you used, to try to avoid confusion.

Well not quite, the voltages are never combined, with DC input AC output on an inverter.
Inverters are very inefficient. eg running a DC fridge from a DC power source, would be better than running an AC fridge from an inverted DC source.
A USB socket is only 5Vdc but that's not the point, its not a power source, just a drop down outlet.
Sure, the less you transform down the lower the losses.
I think with 48Vdc appliances, you would have limited choice.
It could get unnecessarily complicated, working with your vehicles 12Vdc system would not be as straight forward.
If you want to keep things simple, 12Vdc is the better route in my opinion.

Which inverters do you mean?
Inverters can be as much as 95% efficient and it is more efficient to move from 48V to 230V than from 12V to 230V.
Think of a domestic system, which will be storage at 48V (currently [no pun intended lol]), and inverted to the domestic voltage of 230V.

I didn't mention USB sockets because I shan't have any because they may well become obsolete in a short time.
I didn't mention 48Vdc appliances.
Why do you imagine that it would be complicated working with my vehicles 12Vdc system, when the Hab area is a separate system from the vehicle system?

I wonder whether you considered that there will need to be an inverter for the oven, microwave, aircon etc. Little difference in including the fridge /freezer in that list.

Regarding inverters and their invertion from 12v or from 48V, to 230V, I have been advised, by those who know, that 48V is the better option than 12V. More efficient than going from 12V and with cheaper components.

That's the advice I now have from those who know; not my opinion.

[edit]
I shan't be using EHU. Off-grid only.
[/end of edit]

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

If you do go down that route, I would strongly recommend to buy the Book. The bs7671 wiring regulations, that covers the motor caravan's and you will learn allot. You will be making mistakes, some with great safety repercussions. A static install is different, and subject to periodic inspection to keep it up to date. Your van will be no different, and carry a greater degree of inspection and maintenance. It is mobile, exposed to vibrations and fatigue, and things need different approach. Concealed wiring needs to be done 100% as you will not have access to it later, no hidden joints/ connections etc.
Remember, anything above 50V it is not touch safe anymore.
Believe me, I thought I knew some basics of electrics, but, that was not enough until I went to college, and it opened my eyes. I will always learn.

There is an alternative. 24v and plenty of appliances can work on 24v, without having the inverter on, but double the efficiency of 12v.

Thank you Raul I shall look into that book, though I will be having the wiring system certified on completion. (I know, the wiring needs to be done correctly before then )

I too will always learn. That day I stop learning; that's the day I shall close the books and curl up.

 

[Qwin]

Qwin; I used the same terminology (combine systems), that you used, to try to avoid confusion.



Which inverters do you mean?
Inverters can be as much as 95% efficient and it is more efficient to move from 48V to 230V than from 12V to 230V.
Think of a domestic system, which will be storage at 48V (currently [no pun intended lol]), and inverted to the domestic voltage of 230V.

I didn't mention USB sockets because I shan't have any because they may well become obsolete in a short time.
I didn't mention 48Vdc appliances.
Why do you imagine that it would be complicated working with my vehicles 12Vdc system, when the Hab area is a separate system from the vehicle system?

I wonder whether you considered that there will need to be an inverter for the oven, microwave, aircon etc. Little difference in including the fridge /freezer in that list.

Regarding inverters and their invertion from 12v or from 48V, to 230V, I have been advised, by those who know, that 48V is the better option than 12V. More efficient than going from 12V and with cheaper components.

That's the advice I now have from those who know; not my opinion.

[edit]
I shan't be using EHU. Off-grid only.
[/end of edit]

Like I said the less you convert the more efficient, so totally agree, 48DC to 230AC would be more efficient than 12DC to 230AC. It would still be a huge drain on any battery system though, ask anyone running an induction hob off an inverter. eg a 12v 100Ah battery (if fully charged) would last only 1.08hrs with a 1000W load. Efficiency of inverters has improved and I must confess to not being up to date, but to get one over 90% is still likely to cost a fair bit.
But efficiency while playing a role, is not the critical factor, its the current draw required from the battery to match the AC load, plus add 5 to 10% for conversion losses. Volts x Amps = Watts and it soon ramps up the amps required from your batteries.
When it comes to sizing your inverter, take into consideration, if any of your devices are inductive loads, the rule of thumb for an inductive load is the inverter should be capable of handling 3 to 9 times the devices nominal load for the initial start up, like when a fridge motor starts up.
I would take a serious look at your total expected usage per day and what that means in terms of battery/solar panel and inverter requirements.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

Like I said the less you convert the more efficient, so totally agree, 48DC to 230AC would be more efficient than 12DC to 230AC. It would still be a huge drain on any battery system though, ask anyone running an induction hob off an inverter. eg a 12v 100Ah battery (if fully charged) would last only 1.08hrs with a 1000W load. Efficiency of inverters has improved and I must confess to not being up to date, but to get one over 90% is still likely to cost a fair bit.
But efficiency while playing a role, is not the critical factor, its the current draw required from the battery to match the AC load, plus add 5 to 10% for conversion losses. Volts x Amps = Watts and it soon ramps up the amps required from your batteries.
When it comes to sizing your inverter, take into consideration, if any of your devices are inductive loads, the rule of thumb for an inductive load is the inverter should be capable of handling 3 to 9 times the devices nominal load for the initial start up, like when a fridge motor starts up.
I would take a serious look at your total expected usage per day and what that means in terms of battery/solar panel and inverter requirements.

I reckon you're still thinking in terms of 12V.
1000W usage from a 100Ah 48V battery will mean the battery lasts 4.5 hrs approx, yet those 48V batteries aren't 4 times the cost of 12V.

As for inverter cost; here's a 48V one.

https://www.bimblesolar.com/V-Multi-II-48-5000-70-50-

Your preferred option which is less powerful is 1000gbp as opposed to 649 gbp

https://www.bimblesolar.com/Multiplus-ll-12-3000

 

[Raul]

When we converted our van, I was as well very careful about the weight. Anything went in, I made sure it does not weigh a ton. We ended up with a 3.5T crafter converted at 2.9T, and added appliances, water, bike rack, sitting at 3.1T ish. My choice for furniture was light weight 15mm Vohringer ply, and 3mm vinyl lined ply for wall and ceiling. You can over do it in saving weight, and compromise the looks, practicability and strength.
The simplest way to keep it light, is to eliminate needs, but, I like the comfort, practicability and gadgets over a little weight saving. My biggest and only regret is glass bonded windows on the sides, vs plastic double skin windows; a difference of about £1400 at the time, but, looking back, I wish I had done it. Apart from that, I would not change a thing, except electrical upgrades that I already done. You only know the true needs as you start using it in different scenarios. Then the penny drops.

 

[Qwin]

I reckon you're still thinking in terms of 12V.
1000W usage from a 100Ah 48V battery will mean the battery lasts 4.5 hrs approx, yet those 48V batteries aren't 4 times the cost of 12V.

As for inverter cost; here's a 48V one.

https://www.bimblesolar.com/V-Multi-II-48-5000-70-50-

Your preferred option which is less powerful is 950gbp as opposed to 649 gbp

https://www.bimblesolar.com/Multiplus-ll-12-3000

No I'm not thinking just about 12v and I'm not thinking about cost.
Do your sums on a 48v system and see what is involved in terms of power requirement and the systems ability to support it.
It will, be better than 12v, but I'm sceptical about the supply and demand situation when you start mentioning air con etc.
There are several youtubers that have run into problems going all electric, UK and USA contributors that I've come across when just browsing. One guy, off grid in the middle of winter, having to run his RV engine for an hour before he could cook his breakfast. I hope it works for you, but I have doubts about how well it will perform in practice.

 

[Raul]

For winter is the EHU, genny, gas and B2B. Not necessarily in that order, but from my limited experience with the van, gas in winter is a saviour if battery is limited, and a B2B is a must for the rest of electrics.
I'm slowly doing away with the gas, and increased my battery capacity. This winter will be my first test with the larger battery bank, to see how much gas I need. Last winter with 7kwh battery we used less than 17L of LPG. We use little gas in summer, maybe 2-4L. That can be eliminated now with the upgraded B2B, and bigger battery.

 

[68c]

When we converted our van, I was as well very careful about the weight. Anything went in, I made sure it does not weigh a ton. We ended up with a 3.5T crafter converted at 2.9T, and added appliances, water, bike rack, sitting at 3.1T ish. My choice for furniture was light weight 15mm Vohringer ply, and 3mm vinyl lined ply for wall and ceiling. You can over do it in saving weight, and compromise the looks, practicability and strength.
The simplest way to keep it light, is to eliminate needs, but, I like the comfort, practicability and gadgets over a little weight saving. My biggest and only regret is glass bonded windows on the sides, vs plastic double skin windows; a difference of about £1400 at the time, but, looking back, I wish I had done it. Apart from that, I would not change a thing, except electrical upgrades that I already done. You only know the true needs as you start using it in different scenarios. Then the penny drops.

May I suggest you get the van weighed empty, all 'not built in' kit removed, bike rack etc. Try and get that weight below 3,050Kg so you can drive at car speed limits. Go onto the DVLA website and research weight and speed limits. Do not get this confused with the 3,500Kg revenue weight.
Keep a copy of the weighbridge report in the van in case a Cop reckons you should not be allowed to do 60mph on a single carriageway road.
Of course he has to prove you are over 3,050Kg rather than you proving you are not but could stop any escalation.

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[Terry]

I used a Hydronic diesel heater (water and heating). Game changer on gas usage -only needed gas for cooking.Now I would think about a diesel cooker and go gas free

 

[Qwin]

For winter is the EHU, genny, gas and B2B. Not necessarily in that order, but from my limited experience with the van, gas in winter is a saviour if battery is limited, and a B2B is a must for the rest of electrics.
I'm slowly doing away with the gas, and increased my battery capacity. This winter will be my first test with the larger battery bank, to see how much gas I need. Last winter with 7kwh battery we used less than 17L of LPG. We use little gas in summer, maybe 2-4L. That can be eliminated now with the upgraded B2B, and bigger battery.

Pretty much where I was coming from, had a 3 way fridge, mainly used on LPG and LPG heating in the old motor home.
Going for a compressor fridge and diesel heater on the camper build, to cut down on gas usage. Doubling solar and battery size. Still love gas to cook on though, wouldn't have anything else, in the camper or at home.
Terry Diesel cooker! must look into that.

 

[Qwin]

I used a Hydronic diesel heater (water and heating). Game changer on gas usage -only needed gas for cooking.Now I would think about a diesel cooker and go gas free

I steered away from a combined diesel water/space heater and for the same reason would not use a diesel cooker.
That reason being the total diesel usage, as I will be drawing fuel from the main vehicle tank. I didn't want a separate diesel tank in the garage area, as any spillage when filling and it would stink for the life of the van. You also have to carry a can/funnel to fill it. So a low consumption diesel space heater is my only concession. Those diesel cookers (Did a quick search) are just a ceramic style hob heated from below, so no grill or oven and not cheap, up to £2k for a double ring, but basic items from around £400. I hate induction/ceramic/solid electric hobs, give me gas every time. I do a lot of cooking while away, rustling up a full English for six would be a challenge on one of those. It comes down to what your requirements are in the end. My old motorhome had 13 previous owners and the oven had never been used till I got hold of it, so horses for courses. I fitted an external gas point and could plug the BBQ or a high power wok burner into it. I'll be fitting one of those gas points on the camper.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

Do your sums on a 48v system and see what is involved in terms of power requirement and the systems ability to support it.

I've think I've done the maths.

2380W solar (additional 1500W, if a plan comes together)
3 x 100amp 48V LiFePo4 batteries
1 x Victron MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V (4000W) G98 & G99 approved (2nd one if peak usage may necessitate that)
1 x 48V 200A alternator (with regulator)

Minimum 3 days static autonomy without solar input. (Potentially 7+)
4.5kw approx solar per 2 sunhours. (Tiltable panels).
Full battery recharge within 2 hours drive.

Inverter sized for peak use though daily consumption will be < 3kW. Still to do final run-through to clarify daily usage because aircon consumption is a guesstimate.

 

[Qwin]

I've think I've done the maths.

2380W solar (additional 1500W, if a plan comes together)
3 x 100amp 48V LiFePo4 batteries
1 x Victron MultiPlus-II 48/5000/70-50 230V (4000W) G98 & G99 approved (2nd one if peak usage may necessitate that)
1 x 48V 200A alternator (with regulator)

Minimum 3 days static autonomy without solar input. (Potentially 7+)
4.5kw approx solar per 2 sunhours. (Tiltable panels).
Full battery recharge within 2 hours drive.

Inverter sized for peak use though daily consumption will be < 3kW. Still to do final run-through to clarify daily usage because aircon consumption is a guesstimate.

Sounds like your going about it the right way.
The things you need to start any kind of evaluation are:
1. Your average daily draw and be on the high side in the estimate - You look as though you have an idea what the ball park for this will be.
2. Your max draw at any one time, worst case scenario even for a few seconds, including inductive loading, then add a safety margin. Not sure you have factored in a large enough figure for this.

Will your inverter be up to it? Victron inverters, from their spec sheets, are pretty good at handling momentary spikes in demand. But your plan to allow for a second inverter is a smart move.
Its the Inductive loading that may trip the single Inverter up, make sure you have considered this, it can be a big draw. Between x3 and x9 of the nominal current draw (for a single device).
On a big vehicle, with lots of appliances, and Solar acreage, your 48v/Inverter approach has many advantages. For smaller builds with less demand, I consider it posses as many problems as it solves. So its down to the application criterion.
When your done with the build and have some experience of how it performs on the road, feed back your results, I think many people will be interested, myself included.
Have you a Blog or thread for your build?

 

[matbic]

Which inverters do you mean?
Inverters can be as much as 95% efficient and it is more efficient to move from 48V to 230V than from 12V to 230V.
Think of a domestic system, which will be storage at 48V (currently [no pun intended lol]), and inverted to the domestic voltage of 230V.

Inverters when working at their maximum efficiency can reach up to 90% or more. The problem is when they are not at this point the efficiency drops off dramatically.

The main problem is the large transformer in an inverter. This has a significant fixed loss due to the energy it takes to make and collapse the magnetic field in its core on each cycle.

So when working hard at near full output an inverter is very efficient (on my Victron great I have seen well over 90%), the fixed magnetic loss is small compared with the high output current. So when running heavy loads inverters are great - induction hob, coffee machine, hair dryer etc.

But when only used to provide low current output the inverter efficiency goes down very significantly. So using inverter for USB sockets, lights, small pumps, laptops etc. is very inefficient. With just a 100W load I have seen efficiency of only 25%.

The graph will look something like this

It’s very difficult to get data from the manufacturers about low load efficiency, best to assume it’s terrible and avoid using inverter for anything but heavy loads.

As a side point: I have added a little inverter to my van (with a small transformer in it, so less magnetic loss) to run my laptop. The big inverter was just too inefficient with this small 100W load.

Hope this helps.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

Inverters when working at their maximum efficiency can reach up to 90% or more. The problem is when they are not at this point the efficiency drops off dramatically.

The main problem is the large transformer in an inverter. This has a significant fixed loss due to the energy it takes to make and collapse the magnetic field in its core on each cycle.

So when working hard at near full output an inverter is very efficient (on my Victron great I have seen well over 90%), the fixed magnetic loss is small compared with the high output current. So when running heavy loads inverters are great - induction hob, coffee machine, hair dryer etc.

But when only used to provide low current output the inverter efficiency goes down very significantly. So using inverter for USB sockets, lights, small pumps, laptops etc. is very inefficient. With just a 100W load I have seen efficiency of only 25%.

The graph will look something like this
View attachment 1093337
It’s very difficult to get data from the manufacturers about low load efficiency, best to assume it’s terrible and avoid using inverter for anything but heavy loads.

As a side point: I have added a little inverter to my van (with a small transformer in it, so less magnetic loss) to run my laptop. The big inverter was just too inefficient with this small 100W load.

Hope this helps.

Thank you matbic
I'll look into that further to find out whether I should add a small, second inverter.

Sounds like your going about it the right way.

Should hope so given the vehicle build will be a prototype.

On a big vehicle, with lots of appliances, and Solar acreage, your 48v/Inverter approach has many advantages. For smaller builds with less demand, I consider it posses as many problems as it solves.

Each to their own. I think it makes sense all day long, to run 48V because some people who need to upgrade 'today', are committed (because of their manufacturer ), to a 12V system and running huge amperage through a 3000W inverter, for example. Imv, scalability/future-proofing makes 48V make sense.

Have you a Blog or thread for your build?

Not yet. I'm still selecting companies, to do the chassis mods, as necessary, the build of the subfloor and body panels and the CNC work for the interior's veneered sheeting.
The old adage seems to apply. 'if you want something done properly, do it yourself'.

Vehicle dealers and body panel manufacturers so far, have picked up the gauntlet and then, seemingly, hidden away. Others' comms are non-existent such that they don't respond to enquiries. Not even so much as a 'sorry; everyone's working at a show so we'll contact you soon'.

When I've chased them up on it, they come back quickly, seem very keen and state their keenness and experience but then go quiet again.

I can actually envisage leaving them behind and going to Germany to have the body and chassis done.

I've wanted to use local as much as possible but, because bouncing my head off a brick wall seems to be just as productive as working with local businesses, I feeling little option but to go to Germany.

The really frustrating part is that due to building logistics and the needs to have each company relatively close together, the good local ones will likely lose out on the work because they aren't close enough to those (possibly in Germany), who fill the void left by slack and shoddy local businesses.

I wonder if this might be a microcosm of the UK economy or its productivity issues. I hope not but it won't hold me back.

 

[Qwin]

Thank you matbic



Not yet. I'm still selecting companies, to do the chassis mods, as necessary.

Have you looked at the implications of doing this, re DVLA and type approval?
I was listening to a kit car manufacturer on tv, a few years back and he said if you alter the basic vehicle/chassis, even drilling one hole in it, you may have to go through type approval. Motorhome manufacturers bolt their bodies on to an approved chassis cab using existing mounting points. I think it applies to individual builds as well as commercial enterprises. I would check up before starting your project, you wouldn't want to do all the work and find you can't MOT it.

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[TheMobileWanderer]

Have you looked at the implications of doing this, re DVLA and type approval?

I'm aware of the potential implications which is why I'll be employing a company that specialises in such work.

I'm not requiring much different from a dropwell chassis, as used by furniture removal vehicles.

However, if TA becomes an issue (that hassle & costs increase because type approval is required), I'll probably go to a German company that builds the chassis for motorhome manufacturers over there.

 

[Qwin]

Update
My LIP Battery arrived from DC house.
I'm pretty sure it is made by Eco-Worthy, when it shipped, I got an eBay message from DC House, confirming it was on its way, thanking me for Choosing Eco-Worthy and signed, from Eco-Worthy Customer Service Team.

Done most of the prep work to fit the skylight.

Made an Aluminium plate for the outside, to create a flat sealing face and a curved spacer for the inside, matching the roof profile. There is a 17mm rise in the roof over the width of the skylight (780mm). So my spacer is 14mm tall at the outer edges and 31mm tall at the centre. Had to make some cut away's to cope with ribs in the roof.

 

[Qwin]

Update

I spaced the plate off the bodywork with some wooden pegs, glued to its underside. If you put a straight edge on any of the top faces, its nice and flat. I also made a work platform which straddles the roof and locates in the rain gutters. That's all the preparation done, I'm ready to cut the hole.

A friend has very generously allowed me to use his workshop, when he isn't using it, which has made things a lot easier.
Its not tall enough for me to stand on the vans high roof though, so most of the fitting/tweaking/painting for the skylight, will have to be done outside. Praying for a few days without rain.

 

[Qwin]

Update

That's the hole cut, used a jigsaw from the inside.
Metal plate fixed and filled with high build body filler.

A coat of Acid Etch Primer applied to key into the Aluminium plate.

White Primer and White Gloss applied, ready to fit the skylight.

And thats the job done, fixed/sealed with White Sikaflex 522.

The clear lid, opens and locks off, every few degrees.

It lets a fair amount of light into the van and will give plenty of ventilation.

 

[Qwin]

I fitted a small extractor fan over the area the bathroom will occupy.

Fitted a wheel carrier to the back door, to get the spare out from under the van.

I swapped my basic vinyl steering wheel for a used factory leather one with cruise control buttons and activated the cruise control function in the vans software using FORScan. - I now have Cruise Control.
Very tempted to increase the power output of my engine, as the various power mapping levels are selectable using the same software. Could take it from 130PS to 170PS, but will leave this until the full build and weight are tried out as is.

Spent a fair while dealing with stone chips on the sloping upper bodywork above the windscreen. About 120 rust scabs to be ground out, filled and painted. I ended up painting the whole vehicle width, to the point where the roof flattens out.

Took the floor and remaining liner out and took the van to the local weigh bridge.
So my empty van, a 2020 Transit Leader LWB High roof AWD, with no bulkhead, single passenger seat, no Ply lining or floor and no fuel in the tank, weighs 2300kg.
That leaves a mere 1200kg for the build out and contents.
It sounds a lot but take into account:
Me and the wife
Tank of fuel/water/Grey
x2 Propane bottles
Full Aquaroll for extended off grid
Leisure Battery
Levelling ramps
x2 Solar Panels
BBQ
Comes to 526Kg (measured weight of items)

Then there are wind breaks, outdoor table/chairs, tools/spares.
Food, clothing and bedding?

The amount of the 1200kg for the actual build, including all the appliances, is going to be less than half that amount.
And this is taking it to the max weight limit of 3500kg, which is never a good thing for engine/suspension longevity or fuel economy.
So my idea of a light weight build seems very relevant indeed and I will be making this a priority.

The details of my progress, as ever, can be followed using the link in my signature.

 

[Qwin]

I also treated the van to a set of Alloys and All Terrain tyres.
Davanti Terratoura A/T's size LT 245 70R16 113/110T.
These are rated (in this size) as C for Economy, C for the Wet, 75dB Noise and are 3PMSF Approved for Winter use.
They are slightly larger and correct my Speedo, which used to be 5% fast, Sat Nav and Speedo now read the same.
They are less than half the price of BFG AT2's.

 

[Qwin]

I had to re-structure my build blog, where I host my pictures.
Realised it would end up to big to wade through as one page and needed breaking down into sub sections.
Because of path changes I've lost the links for a few of the earlier pictures and its to long ago to edit.
Hopefully this will not reoccur and should work without further changes in the future.

 

[CAB96]

Looking good.

Do you have a target date for finishing / using the conversion?

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[Qwin]

Looking good.

Do you have a target date for finishing / using the conversion?

The short answer is, I'm hoping to get it ready for use by April.

Progress..........
A friend has let me use his small industrial unit. Just tall enough to get my High roof van through the roller shutters, long enough to get it in and drop the shutters behind, with room to open the rear doors. Light, Power and some Heating in the unit, means I can work over the winter in there. There's room to work, to the side of the van, with a work bench, table saw and small compressor. I'm lucky to have this facility.
I fitted the electric hook up point to the van, but just have a trailing lead with multiway power block attached inside. This gives me power and lighting with the van doors shut. I fitted an EHU point on my drive, so I can have mains power in the van and work at home, regardless of the weather.

I bought an underslung grey water tank, made specifically for my Mk8 LWB Transit, that will be going in soon, but I need to drop the fuel tank that sits next to it first and fit the diesel heaters fuel pick up. I have the Joolca "Gotago" composting toilet stored in the loft, ready. The internal 100L fresh water tank is sitting waiting.
I need to plug the screw holes left in the floor and think about fitting any anchorage battens, then start the insulation.
I made use of the current Black Friday deals and got a Pair of Renogy N-Type Mono solar panels (320w a piece) for £220 total, which I thought was a bargain. 640w should be enough for my use, which is mainly 12v Fridge, Water Pump, LED lighting and in the cooler months, the Heater Motor. I got a 200Ah LIP battery also sat in the van waiting.

So plenty to get on with, suffering with a cold at the moment, when that shifts I'll get back to it.
My design background means I do a lot of planning and consider a lot of "What if" scenarios before I start a job, but once I get going, work quite quickly. One of the mistakes a lot of people make, is they forget about maintenance or replacements and wall things up. I don't want to rip half the van apart to get to a leaky water coupling, or to swap out a failed fan.
My previous motor home had a water leak from the kitchen tap. I had to remove the three way fridge, with everything that entails, to get to it. Just to find it was a push in fitting that had not been fitted correctly and took 30 seconds to re connect.

I keep my blog, linked in my signature, pretty much up to date with the details and I'll keep the summery of progress going, on here. Can't wait to get her on the road and start enjoying time away.

 

[Raul]

What evidence, please show me any?
All the articles here are by non experts, that haven't run any tests and are simply trying to justify their purchase. Even the battery manufacturers web sites are very guarded in the claims they make, with little science exposed.
We will just have to disagree on this one, to me, its like saying the Hindenburg was perfectly safe.
It's not what you know, its the unforeseen that will get you every time.

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiFePO4) don't like being charged 100% or being completely discharged. They require special chargers, different to other Lithium types. They don't like Heat or vibration or impact etc etc. The more constraints you put on something for it to work correctly, the more likely one of those constraints will change beyond your control and cause it to fail. They are very unlikely to go wrong in perfect Laboratory conditions, but they still can and will go wrong. Life on the road can be hard and unexpected things happen. A friend had a tyre explode on his motorhome, took out his rear wheel arch and did loads of internal damage, luckily his "monster" batteries were stored further forward. When it comes to fire hazard, I can't find a statement anywhere from a serious sauce, that says LiFePO4 batteries wont burn. But many quotes of "reduced chance of thermal run away", which between the lines, means they still can run away. Every article points out they are inherently safer, but that's compared to other forms of Lithium battery and fail to mention that this actually means they still pose a risk. It's marketing bull to circumvent the issue.
Google "Lithium leisure battery fire risk" and see what the AI response is (I know, not the best of sources).
It's weird, that folks worry about and avoid, fitting LPG in their vans, yet will string together a Lithium Battery based system without a care.

You couldn't be any further from the truth. Relying on AI for your research on LiFePo4 is very poor and mislead info. There is plenty of tests and data out there for the past two decades.
Airplanes use LiFePo4 for some time, they replaced the pure lead AGM.

 

[Qwin]

You couldn't be any further from the truth. Relying on AI for your research on LiFePo4 is very poor and mislead info. There is plenty of tests and data out there for the past two decades.
Airplanes use LiFePo4 for some time, they replaced the pure lead AGM.

Old news now.
But typically you talk about plenty of tests and data, without linking to any. This was my problem, people talked without giving the source of their knowledge. I couldn't find much actual data. Some aircraft also have ejection systems to ditch the batteries if there is a problem. "Eject the core scotty" If you read the later posts you will see I purchased a LIP battery.

 

[Raul]

If you read the later posts you will see I purchased a LIP battery.

I haven't got that far yet, I will catch up. What made you get LFP in the end?

 

[Qwin]

I haven't got that far yet, I will catch up. What made you get LFP in the end?

Performance v size/weight was always in their favour, I was just concerned about safety.
I read a report about combustibility of LiFePo4, it takes a lot to get them to burn, even with a naked flame applied they will not catch straight away. But if they do run away and get to a very high temperature, they can start to burn and ferociously. With all the safety/monitoring that is built in to the batteries and controllers, it is unlikely they would get hot enough to combust. Not impossible, just very, very unlikely.
I was reassured by this.

 

[Raul]

Performance v size/weight was always in their favour, I was just concerned about safety.
I read a report about combustibility of LiFePo4, it takes a lot to get them to burn, even with a naked flame applied they will not catch straight away. But if they do run away and get to a very high temperature, they can start to burn and ferociously. With all the safety/monitoring that is built in to the batteries and controllers, it is unlikely they would get hot enough to combust. Not impossible, just very, very unlikely.
I was reassured by this.

I'm glad you made an informed decision.
LiFePo4 do not have any combustible materials. However, in the event of electrolyte venting, in contact with air-oxygen those vapours oxidises and becomes flammable vapours- gas. If and that is if is trapped in a confined space to mix with air and have enough gas to reach stoichiometric mix with the air, it can combust of an ignition source.
By itself will not ignite, as it does not go into a thermal runway, unless the case is punctured with a metallic object.

For the electrolyte to vent, you need to be very very unlucky to have a faulty charger, combined with a catastrophic bms failure. And the gas needs to be trapped and a ignition source to ignite it. The likely gas is Hydrogen, tiny molecules that are very difficult to contain, so they will vent trough slightest of gaps. But use a decent charger to not push the bms into protection unnecessary, and set conservative voltages on charging and discharging so there is no need for bms intervention on daily basis.
If you use it within its parameters plus a small safety conservative margin, it will outlive your van.

Have you decided on the ceiling? The 3mm finished ply you can get joining strips for it, and glue it to some wood batten ribs, holding with props, if you don't want the screw fixings. There is a H trim and a D trim, the D will double up for some discrete wiring if needed.