Busbar Question

[Adrianlle]

As part of installing a Victron 1600va ComapactMultiplus ( from a Funster ) I am taking the opportunity to tidy up the battery compartment wiring whilst fitting beefier cables to the new batteries. At the moment everything is squeezed on to sae battery clamps. By everything I mean the fused feed from starter batt/BtB; link to second batty;current fused inverter inverter cable; solar fused cable;main fusedfeed to kill switch and fusebox/ distribution; sep fused small cables.
My plan is to have a positive busbar fed by fused cable from starter batt/BtB; equal length cables from busbar to each batt
+ using the provided mate bolts ( batt designed for those).; then to connect to the positive busbar terminals all the other cables that were squeezed on to the sae terminal.
Similar set up with negative busbar save that each batt - cable will go first to new shunt and from there to neg busbar.
If I’ve got that approach right it should result in less squeezed/ crowded batt terminals. Assuming that’s ok is there any preferred order for the cables coming off the busbars ( eg should inverter cable on busbar be closest to the busbar terminal feeding the batteries etc) ?or doesn’t it really matter as the busbars are just replicating having cables squeezed on to existing batt terminals. Sorry for the long winded post but thought I’d better double check first! Thanks

 

[Raul]

Top left, solar charger with inline midi 50a, top right inverter. Bottom outhers are 80a the batteries 200ah each, and one 40a feed to low power DC distribution, and the 30a B2B next to the 40a.
You can get this box at 12v planet, but I beefed up with 15x3mm copper bar. The original is anemic.
Second pic is low power DC distribution.

 

[Raul]

Forgot to say, the negatives, are two 35’s from battery to shunt, then one 70 from shunt loads side to a stud/post. All negatives go to the stud/post. Visible in first pic.

 

[The Dotties]

No wonder you are one of the go to’s for answers to lecc questions

 

[peterc10]

I used the same one as Raul . Bought ours on Amazon. Also sold on fleabay. The only problem was that there was a possibility that the bolt heads underneath could come into contact with the steel panel I bolted it to if they were incorrectly loosened. That is why I installed a rubber shield (cut from an old car mat) between the busbar and the steel panel. You can just see it on the first photo.

Bottom left goes to the leisure batteries, top left to the inverter, and the three on the right to the solar regulator, the EBL and the B2B. I have one spare for any future use.

Labelled them all to make sure I know what is what.

Did it when I installed 2 LiFePo batteries, new B2B and new solar controller.

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[Adrianlle]

Top left, solar charger with inline midi 50a, top right inverter. Bottom outhers are 80a the batteries 200ah each, and one 40a feed to low power DC distribution, and the 30a B2B next to the 40a.
You can get this box at 12v planet, but I beefed up with 15x3mm copper bar. The original is anemic.
Second pic is low power DC distribution.
View attachment 640639View attachment 640640View attachment 640642View attachment 640641

Thanks Raul and PeterC10. Those look great but alas a counsel of perfection for me. Space is v v tight in a Westfalia James Cook so I just can’t accommodate one of those- which I suspect is why all the current connections are squeezed onto sae battery posts.
What I can make room for ( and have) is a 4 stud Blue Sea busbars ( pos and neg). Given the space limit my thinking was that I can mount that vertically and( taking pos as example) feeding in to top stud from right would be inverter and going out from top stud to left would be to battery 1( ie 2 ring terminals on each stud) Then bottom stud in from right solar and out on left to batt 2. Then 2nd stud down in from BtB (40A). Then 3rd stud down to Fusebox/ distribution. All the above cables already have mega/midi fuses fitted and perversely there is room to accommodate those but not the fused busbar you picture.
Does my proposed way forward sound sensible albeit not pukka? Thanks

 

[peterc10]

Thanks Raul and PeterC10. Those look great but alas a counsel of perfection for me. Space is v v tight in a Westfalia James Cook so I just can’t accommodate one of those- which I suspect is why all the current connections are squeezed onto sae battery posts.
What I can make room for ( and have) is a 4 stud Blue Sea busbars ( pos and neg). Given the space limit my thinking was that I can mount that vertically and( taking pos as example) feeding in to top stud from right would be inverter and going out from top stud to left would be to battery 1( ie 2 ring terminals on each stud) Then bottom stud in from right solar and out on left to batt 2. Then 2nd stud down in from BtB (40A). Then 3rd stud down to Fusebox/ distribution. All the above cables already have mega/midi fuses fitted and perversely there is room to accommodate those but not the fused busbar you picture.
Does my proposed way forward sound sensible albeit not pukka? Thanks

They are about 10cm square and 4cm deep. The photos are very close up. They were the most compact ones I could find that still dealt with the high currents involved.

I can't comment on what you are proposing because I have not heard of Blue Sea busbars

 

[Adrianlle]

They are about 10cm square and 4cm deep. The photos are very close up. They were the most compact ones I could find that still dealt with the high currents involved.

I can't comment on what you are proposing because I have not heard of Blue Sea busbars

It looks much bigger than that in the photos. Is the 4cm deep including the cover? Do you have a link so I can have a look ? I will have another look tomorrow. Is there any reason why I shouldn’t mount one of those to the top of a lithium battery case- might be the only way to get one to fit? Thanks

 

[Adrianlle]

Thanks Raul and PeterC10. Those look great but alas a counsel of perfection for me. Space is v v tight in a Westfalia James Cook so I just can’t accommodate one of those- which I suspect is why all the current connections are squeezed onto sae battery posts.
What I can make room for ( and have) is a 4 stud Blue Sea busbars ( pos and neg). Given the space limit my thinking was that I can mount that vertically and( taking pos as example) feeding in to top stud from right would be inverter and going out from top stud to left would be to battery 1( ie 2 ring terminals on each stud) Then bottom stud in from right solar and out on left to batt 2. Then 2nd stud down in from BtB (40A). Then 3rd stud down to Fusebox/ distribution. All the above cables already have mega/midi fuses fitted and perversely there is room to accommodate those but not the fused busbar you picture.
Does my proposed way forward sound sensible albeit not pukka? Thanks

Top left, solar charger with inline midi 50a, top right inverter. Bottom outhers are 80a the batteries 200ah each, and one 40a feed to low power DC distribution, and the 30a B2B next to the 40a.
You can get this box at 12v planet, but I beefed up with 15x3mm copper bar. The original is anemic.
Second pic is low power DC distribution.
View attachment 640639View attachment 640640View attachment 640642View attachment 640641

Raul,these may be smaller than I thought. Do you have a link as I can’t find them on 12v planet, Amazon etc.

 

[Raul]

1 x MEGA and 4 x MIDI fuse holder distribution box 200A per fuse output PDU PDM | eBay

M5 threaded studs and hex nuts to secure 4 MIDI (AMI) fuses (M5 studs).

www.ebay.co.uk

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[Raul]

My space is very tight, and the only think I could use was this.
You are not wrong with blue sea bus bars, very good quality, I did prefer the midi maxi combination as it offers the fuse and distribution in one place.

 

[Adrianlle]

1 x MEGA and 4 x MIDI fuse holder distribution box 200A per fuse output PDU PDM | eBay

M5 threaded studs and hex nuts to secure 4 MIDI (AMI) fuses (M5 studs).

www.ebay.co.uk

Thanks for the link. I’m going to try to fit that in. Can I ask about cable size from the midi fuses on that unit. The ebay info says it will take amax of 11mm cable diam in the midi cover ports. I am using 50mm2 cable from the multiplus and had assumed I would also use the same size from the busbar to the batteries ( 2x 100ah Lifepo4). But I think 50mm2 will too thick for the midi ports? What size do you reckon from the midi port to each battery( less than a metre from unit to batts) and what midi fuse ? rating? Thanks.

 

[Raul]

The midi will be fine with 35mm2 to each battery. That’s what I used. The maxi to the inverter I fitted 70mm2 with a bit of adjustment. The 50mm2 will fit fine on the maxi. Make sure you use flared lugs as they are a tad longer and makes it possible to fit around the crimp area in the box.

 

[peterc10]

50mm2 seems OTT to me. What sort of current are you catering for? On my set up the two highest currents were to the battery and the inverter and those use the two large ports with a 150A fuse. My B2B is 16mm2 and Solar and EBL are each 10mm2.

 

[Raul]

50mm2 seems OTT to me. What sort of current are you catering for? On my set up the two highest currents were to the battery and the inverter and those use the two large ports with a 150A fuse. My B2B is 16mm2 and Solar and EBL are each 10mm2.

It’s not ott. For the victron multiplus 1600va the manual asks for 50mm2. It will compensate for voltage drop and DC ripple. If you run undersized cable at high load , you will get high DC ripple, bad for inverter.

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[Adrianlle]

The midi will be fine with 35mm2 to each battery. That’s what I used. The maxi to the inverter I fitted 70mm2 with a bit of adjustment. The 50mm2 will fit fine on the maxi. Make sure you use flared lugs as they are a tad longer and makes it possible to fit around the crimp area in the box.

Thanks Raul. Will do another measure up tomoyand then do order.

 

[Adrianlle]

My space is very tight, and the only think I could use was this.
You are not wrong with blue sea bus bars, very good quality, I did prefer the midi maxi combination as it offers the fuse and distribution in one place.

I’ve had a busy day repositioning various bits so that I now - just- have space for the fuse distribution busbar and a 6 way additional fuse box with positive busbar and have ordered them , cable, terminals etc. It’s surprihow all the bits and pieces soon add up! I can use the blue sea busbar I bought as a negative busbar between the shut and the chassis.
There is an issue however- off topic. The new boards will be mounted to a non removable metal plate that has a gap behind it but not enough space to get a hand etc behind to hold a nut. I don’t think self tapping screws are secure enough for high current. electric boards. So my question is would a few riv nuts be the answer - there’s room enough behind the plate for the protruding rivnuts. But I don’t have a tool and have never used one. So my question is whether there are cheap ones around that will be good enough for a v occasional use, or should J try to persuade my local garage ( who do old land rovers etc ) to do me 4 riv nut holes ( assuming they have the tool) without charging me an arm and a leg( they are usually v helpful with the stuff on the van that doesn’t warrant an Indy merc). It’s in an accessible place ? What do people think? Any other ideas? Thanks

 

[Raul]

Rivnut it’s better. However I did managed to get nuts in the cavities by superglueing them to a wire and pushing them to existing hole. This is how I bolted the ribs on my van for the wall board panelling. I have not used one single screw in the body metal, all nylon lock nuts. I had previously self tapers for the work van door cards, and they all came loose at some point. Bolts and few toggles where I could not get a nut in. Wish I had a rivnut tool for the build.

 

[Adrianlle]

Rivnut it’s better. However I did managed to get nuts in the cavities by superglueing them to a wire and pushing them to existing hole. This is how I bolted the ribs on my van for the wall board panelling. I have not used one single screw in the body metal, all nylon lock nuts. I had previously self tapers for the work van door cards, and they all came loose at some point. Bolts and few toggles where I could not get a nut in. Wish I had a rivnut tool for the build.

The superglue wire sounds ingenious. What sort of wire and how does the wire stop the nut turning when the bolt is tightened ? Or did you superglue the nut as well and then do the final few turns of the bolt after the glue has set.? Lookiyahain at riv nut tool and too expensive really for a v limited use. Thanks

 

[Raul]

Thick fencing wire bent round the hex and glued to stay on. Some will start spinning some won’t as they start tightening against the metal. Give it a try, not much to loose.

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[Adrianlle]

Thanks. Will post how I get on once the stuff has arrived.

 

[mick qc]

Top left, solar charger with inline midi 50a, top right inverter. Bottom outhers are 80a the batteries 200ah each, and one 40a feed to low power DC distribution, and the 30a B2B next to the 40a.
You can get this box at 12v planet, but I beefed up with 15x3mm copper bar. The original is anemic.
Second pic is low power DC distribution.
View attachment 640639View attachment 640640View attachment 640642View attachment 640641

can i ask are you meant to use the connection on the top left the one on the mega fuse and isnt the one on the left for the battery connection as per my attachment

 

[mick qc]

sorry, after further research its the one in red thats the connection from the battery,

 

[Raul]

You can configure it to suit your needs. Mine it’s the two 80a midi that are the batteries. When you parallel lithium, you should fuse each battery. If one goes bad, it will get isolated from the rest.
The top in my case it’s the inverter, it gets all the accumulated current from two batteries, and all charging sources.

 

[mick qc]

But the one in my image in red I thought was for the battery connection. So it’s connected to a mega fuse not a midi.
Am I right in thinking that the one I have in red is where your inverter is connected to.

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[mick qc]

You can configure it to suit your needs. Mine it’s the two 80a midi that are the batteries. When you parallel lithium, you should fuse each battery. If one goes bad, it will get isolated from the rest.
The top in my case it’s the inverter, it gets all the accumulated current from two batteries, and all charging source

The one marked with the red line is were I’ll connect my batteries to with a 50mm cable and the green line is where I’ll connect the inverter also in 50mm via a 150amp fuse.
I already have the distribution block connected up but I need to upgrade the cables and fuse to accommodate a 2000w inverter

 

[cyberyacht]

. When you parallel lithium, you should fuse each battery. If one goes bad, it will get isolated from the rest.

How does that work? + is from one battery and - from the other. Can you post a diagram please.

 

[mick qc]

How does that work? + is from one battery and - from the other. Can you post a diagram please.

I would of thought that both + connect to the dist box and the -ve connect to the shunt or neg bus bar.
But I have no knowledge of lithium. Or why they’re connected any different to other battery banks

 

[Raul]

Both +ve from batteries goes to the buss bar fused at 80a each, and both -ve from batteries goes to the shunt battery side.
Each +ve run from battery to bus bar is 600mm long by 35mm2, and same for the -ve .

 

[autorouter]

How does that work? + is from one battery and - from the other. Can you post a diagram please.

I think you are referring to the common method of connecting all the positive wires to the positive of one battery, and all the negatives to the negative of the other battery. That is intended to equalise any voltage drop in the cables, and works well for two batteries.

An alternative method is to have a positive busbar, and run two equal length wires from the busbar to each battery, and do the same on the negatives, using a busbar or, in this case, a shunt. With several heavy-duty wires, a busbar is a good idea. Also this method works for any number of batteries.

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