Black waste disposal

[DavidG58]

we have a black tank, ours has a macerator on the inlet so everything is kind of blended on entry

weekend after next we are staying on a site that offers serviced pitches with own grey waste disposal

it also says it has no drive over dump option for tanks

so, I have a question / moral dilemma

can I let my mushed up black waste go down with my grey? my normal operation when dumping waste is to let black out through our own hose to gully or drain or manhole, then connect same hose to grey outlet and dump that to flush the drain and pipe

we do not use chemicals and there are no more solids in our black waste than grey

I carry a bucket and as yet unused cassette (nice to keep it that way) just in case I ever need to dump to traditional raised elsan dumps as this site has, so could do that, but as the grey waste almost certainly goes to sewer I cant see why the black cant go down the same drain, especially as it will be flushed with grey

I am being slightly (quite a lot really) lazy, but we are off to France as we leave that site and I want to be empty

I suspect if I ask the site they will be horrified that I have even asked, they will visualise a standard drop fill cassette full of lumps and paper, mine really is poo soup, so I wont ask but still might just dump it, I might just enquire where the grey drain is connected to, as I have an interest through work, there is a slim chance they might recycle it through the toilets, in which case it would be inappropriate to dump toilet waste to that area, but that is extremely unlikely

the more I type I feel I have answered my own question, I shouldn't really do it just in case, so will keep cassette clean and take a couple of buckets to their elsan point

Knowing my luck the site owner will enquire what I am doing and tell me I could have dropped in down the grey waste on my pitch

so, there you go, a pre-answered question, but I have spent my last 5 minutes typing so will not delete, but I do apologise for you wasting 3 minutes reading it

 

[sdc77]

Lol @ poo soup .. sounds much nicer

 

[Badknee]

You have just wasted five minutes of you life you will never get back typing that effluent and I have wasted slightly less reading it and replying to it with this rubbish answer.

 

[GJH]

As you have answered your own question and decided to do what you know is right then I would guess there is no harm in asking about using the service point. If it's OK you're on a winner and if it isn't you've lost nowt.

 

[The Wino]

Don't know what the connection to the grey waste is like or how good a fall there is but it could be a bit smelly for the next user.

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[Dave and Ginny]

I would say you really need to ask the question and be sure. It would be wrong to assume that the gray and black waste end up in the same place as it would most likely do in domestic home environment. Even so, would you pour it down the kitchen sink?

You cannot rule out the possibility that the gray water is recycled. If that were the case then the mixing of black waste with fecal containing harmful bacteria would not only be a hazard to health but also illegal.

 

[DavidG58]

Don't know what the connection to the grey waste is like or how good a fall there is but it could be a bit smelly for the next user.

we do this over gulleys where available on sites and are always careful to direct the flow with our hose, unlike so many who just seem to get somewhere near and let it go, its particularly bad on the continent for this

as we would be flushing it away with grey waste there is unlikely to be any residual effects at all visual or nasal IMO grey waste often smells worse than poo, grey just stinks poo you tend to recognise it and it is more easily identified / accepted. WE do this at home over our own manhole connected to the sewer the smell coming up the drain is always worse that anything we add

 

[funflair]

My guess is that the grey would go the same place as the black so worth an ask.

Martin

 

[DavidG58]

I would say you really need to ask the question and be sure. It would be wrong to assume that the gray and black waste end up in the same place as it would most likely do in domestic home environment. Even so, would you pour it down the kitchen sink?

You cannot rule out the possibility that the gray water is recycled. If that were the case then the mixing of black waste with fecal containing harmful bacteria would not only be a hazard to health but also illegal.

I think I have already covered all your concerns in my own mind and comments above, but in answer to the bit about pouring it down my kitchen sink, the answer is no, but I wouldn't pour my grey waste water down there either.

Poo blended with bio washing liquid has its own predictable smell, grey waste water IMO smells much worse, if we forget to push down the traps in our sinks and shower in particular before travelling we often have to stop and do it due to the pong

 

[sallylillian]

David, as I have come from an RV the use of tanks is normal, the idea of a cassette horrified me. My new Flair has a macerating toilet and a 170 litre "black tank" (option extra I considered must have) for the same slurry result as you. The Flairs waste pipes join together under the van with a 40mm spigot so I use the same techniques I employed on the RV. Dump the black first, and my tank has a fresh water flush so I give that 5 minutes too, then dump the grey so the pipes and drain get flushed through. I like the 40mm pipe it is less obtrusive than the 4 inch US RV pipe. For creating fall from the spigot I use the concertina pipe support that I had from the RV this has a gradual fall built in with decreasing leg heights so that deals with the gravity evacuation. What about 25 mm points up in the air or 50 metres away. I use the macerator pump that again I had on the RV. I have an adapter to take a short 40mm length into the pump and 100 metres of 25mm to run to the service point from the pumps exit. I don't need the macerating capability but it pumps for a great distance and or uphill so I have flexibility.
As to your point on using a service point on a pitch that might be described as grey, I believe that you answered that, the site do not want cassette users trying to squeeze their waste into the pipe. And I have seen many who have tried and just left their waste around the drain. It only takes one, but if you are flushing as I said above, and manage your grey so you have nigh on a full tank of grey before you are ready to flush the black then I would not concern myself. In addition you might try adding a cup of biological washing liquid and a couple of caps of Calgon to your empty black tank. This is a version of the US mixture, its not chemicals as such and I find it helps keep the tank walls and sensor clean.
Michael

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[DavidG58]

@sallylillian

Thanks for that, I wish we had an option to pump ours out, our macerator is immediately below the toilet and we depend purely on gravity to get rid from the tank, although we can also tip our MH sideways using the E + P jacks, that can help, but as you say 40mm pipe seems to get rid nice and easily (unless uphill ) I have on a couple of occasions ended up with a pipe full of 'liquid' due to gradients, bit messy when manually swapping over.

I might look at joining our 2 together, but will not be easy, the black drops vertically from the tank with about 75mm exposed pipe under MH, it would need a 90degree bend to allow a joint and that might then block. Our blade valve wire connection has already failed on our grey tank outlet and I fitted a ball valve at the outlet some time ago now, making it even more complicated to merge the two

we do use Bio liquid at all times in black and grey tanks, not really sure it makes much difference to the odour of the contents, I was discussing this very issue with Bev last night, given the costs involved in ownership and moving the MH around, if we added a whole bottle of Bio liquid shared between the black and grey at each emptying it doesn't really add enough cost to worry about and might then improve the odour

 

[sallylillian]

David get one of these:-
Broken Link Removed
Fashion a y connector for your grey and black, when I get home I will send a picture of the N+B assembly.

 

[scotjimland]

I feel I have answered my own question, I shouldn't really do it just in case,

Agreed..

On some sites it all goes to the same mains sewage drain so makes no odds, but on others the grey is dispersed into the land.. If it made no difference where grey and black waste was disposed, your van wouldn't have separate tanks.

Unless you know .. play safe..

 

[sallylillian]

But then if you live in London your tap water has been through 7 people already.

 

[GJH]

But then if you live in London your tap water has been through 7 people already.

Is that why so many Londoners are full of *****?

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[Dave and Ginny]

Business users including camp sites will be charged for their water by means of a water meter. If they are on mains drainage they will be charged for waste that enters the public sewer at the rate of approximately 90% of the volume of water. For years now reducing that percentage further by either recycling or using the gray water for some other process has been encourage by water companies, including the one I used to work for in the area of the UK that has....believe it or not, less annual rainfull than Jerusalem .

 

[DavidG58]

Business users including camp sites will be charged for their water by means of a water meter. If they are on mains drainage they will be charged for waste that enters the public sewer at the rate of approximately 90% of the volume of water. For years now reducing that percentage further by either recycling or using the gray water for some other process has been encourage by water companies, including the one I used to work for in the area of the UK that has....believe it or not, less annual rainfull than Jerusalem .

I will ask what they do with their grey water and let you all know what I did with my black

 

[DavidG58]

Is that why so many Londoners are full of *****?

give us a couple of letters as a clue Graham, too many options as you have left it

 

[Dave and Ginny]

I will ask what they do with their grey water and let you all know what I did with my black

David, the answer will most likely be that it all goes down the sewer. My point is that you cannot tell this just by looking at the waste inlet except where it has been specifically set up for RV dumping. If I had your set up I would ask the site, chances are they would direct you to a surface sewer cover that you could drop your hose into. This would also give you some gravitational oooomph!

 

[GJH]

give us a couple of letters as a clue Graham, too many options as you have left it

Perhaps all the options apply David

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[GeebeeJaybee]

Agreed..

On some sites it all goes to the same mains sewage drain so makes no odds, but on others the grey is dispersed into the land..

This actually shouldn't be true on a site, it would be in contravention of the building regulations and environment agency requirements. You are right that some sites will have combined sewer systems with all discharge going to one sewer system but NEVER should grey water discharge onto the land by design. Only surface water ONLY drains should ever discharge into water courses and soakaways. Grey water would always be classed as foul drainage as it is possible it contains soaps or other chemicals.

For clarity surface water is rain water only, if it has been through a house sink, shower, loo, washing machine - or any similar systyem in a motorhome - it is not surface water and should go via the foul drainage.

That said - grey and black discharge should go to exactly the same place, eventually - the site may wish you to use the specific facility though as if the grey waste pitch disposal is in between two pitches would you really want someones bodily functions tipped out next to you (however well chopped it may be!)

 

[hilldweller]

But then if you live in London your tap water has been through 7 people already.

We all drink water that came out of Ceasar's penis, on the whole water is neither created nor destroyed, it just keeps recirculating.

 

[scotjimland]

You are right that some sites will have combined sewer systems with all discharge going to one sewer system but NEVER should grey water discharge onto the land by design. Only surface water ONLY drains should ever discharge into water courses and soakaways. Grey water would always be classed as foul drainage as it is possible it contains soaps or other chemicals.

I accept what you say.. it's not my field of expertise.. just what I thought some smaller sites did.. in particular CLs who don't want grey water dumped in the sewage storage tank..

What about grey water recycling systems ?

 

[GeebeeJaybee]

there are only 2 types of drainage in the UK. Foul and surface water. If something falls as rain and goes into the drain direct (such as off a roof or road run off) it is surface water. If it has been used in a house (however clean you may be!) it is foul water. Even "clean" water from a sink is foul water.

You can, for properties not connected to mains drainage get systems like septic tanks with drainage fields (Klargester for example) but the foul drainage is treated internally before being discharged via a herringbone drainage field. There are no acceptable circumstances for discharging foul water to the land without treatment.

Grey water recycling in buildings (more common now than ever) takes foul water from showers etc to a holding tank and uses it for flushing toilets or other uses where it does not contact directly with people (ie not in taps!). It is then discharged after its second use into the foul system. Harvested grey water cannot be used for garden watering etc without treatment first.

As you can see I deal with this a lot as a building inspector who was once a drainage engineer!

Jen

 

[scotjimland]

You can, for properties not connected to mains drainage get systems like septic tanks with drainage fields (Klargester for example) but the foul drainage is treated internally before being discharged via a herringbone drainage field. There are no acceptable circumstances for discharging foul water to the land without treatment.

Getting back to the OP question.. so it is possible that the site has a grey water treatment plant that he is not aware of and wouldn't want black being put in it ?

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[GeebeeJaybee]

Grey / black treatment plants there is no difference. As I said there are only two types of drainage. Foul and Surface water.

Grey and black are both foul drainage regardless of how or where they are treated. The only reasons to not put black into the grey is if it goes to a holding tank for other use (flushing toilets etc) but this would be rare for anything other than a very large new building or an eco home as the benefits take a very long time to achieve a payback in terms of water saving.

It is more likely that it is considered "not very nice" to discharge fecal matter next to where people may be cooking outside etc rather than a physical reason not to.

 

[John & Joan]

I have been on a couple of sites one in Cornwall is a 600 van site with one chemical disposal point that a vehicle could not get near and a CL in Co. Durham both have grey water drains on pitch. These are not directed to a drain but are just a soakaway into a hedge. The Co. Durham CL has a Motorhome point marked but that again is a soakaway and not for black waste. So don't think that if a drain is provided it goes to any form of sewer. On both people have dumped black waste and caused the owners problems.

 

[DavidG58]

Can I just add that I am not an inconsiderate type, it was a serious question, I am also involved in dirty water at work so have similar knowledge to GeebeeJaybee, I will ask on site where it goes, but apart from colour still feel my grey waste can be worse than or at least as bad as my black (brown) waste. But I do deal with worse daily

If anybody was cooking or sat outside I would not discharge either

If the disposal point has a fixed grid I would not use it for black waste, even though it is mushed up it could still leave some residue, if it has a hole in the cover big enough for my 40mm hose or the cover can be lifted I would use it discretely once I know where it goes

I suspect the site will say it cant be used for black tank waste, I will follow their instructions

There is always the hard shoulder of the M42 if I am stuck with it

 

[funflair]

Can I just add that I am not an inconsiderate type, it was a serious question, I am also involved in dirty water at work so have similar knowledge to GeebeeJaybee, I will ask on site where it goes, but apart from colour still feel my grey waste can be worse than or at least as bad as my black (brown) waste. But I do deal with worse daily

If anybody was cooking or sat outside I would not discharge either

If the disposal point has a fixed grid I would not use it for black waste, even though it is mushed up it could still leave some residue, if it has a hole in the cover big enough for my 40mm hose or the cover can be lifted I would use it discretely once I know where it goes

I suspect the site will say it cant be used for black tank waste, I will follow their instructions

There is always the hard shoulder of the M42 if I am stuck with it

That's disgusting dropping it on the hard shoulder, put it in the outside lane, I never go there

We did go to a site in Germany which had the cassette dump point and the motorhome drive over point right outside the restaurant, they didn't allow use at meal times

Martin