Another dead Cab Battery post

[Sunlovers]

Morning all,

Our cab battery decided to quit on us this weekend. Despite the van only having been on the road for 11 months, despite having a VB Battery Master fitted, and despite having both solar & EHU input available whilst standing on the drive, when I went to crank it over to lift the EP rams, the dashboard lit up like an Italian christmas tree and nothing more would happen.

I've spoken with Vanbitz and they've been helpful in answering questions re the battery master operation but they've also raised a flag over whether it's been correctly wired in (they didn't fit it, the supplying local dealership did). I am rather miffed however that even having had solar and a battery master fitted, we find ourselves with a dead truck after less than a year on the road. The habitation control panel was completely powered off, as was anything media center connected, so somewhat puzzled as to why it has died all of a sudden.

Currently sweating on the C-Teck maintenance unit to work its magic, but I am not hopeful as when I checked the battery off its terminals I found a reading of just 10.2v. So, the question is, what sort of battery do I need to source, as the Fiat manual is useless and just says replace with a like for like, but it doesn't say what sort of battery it is. There are no visible marking on the top of the battery to indicate what sort it is either, so until I disconnect everything to remove it, I can't see what sort I need to look for. The van is a Ducato-based Carthago A-Class 2.3 EU6 with auto box and stop/start technology. Any clues anyone please?

 

[TheBig1]

You are making an assumption that the battery on your van is only 1 year old. For a few reasons this is not necessarily true. You need a model 019 battery and always choose a quality one with a good warranty

 

[Jev88]

017 and 019 batteries seem the most common types (same foot print and different heights).

 

[Sunlovers]

You are making an assumption that the battery on your van is only 1 year old. For a few reasons this is not necessarily true. You need a model 019 battery and always choose a quality one with a good warranty

I'd kinda accepted that the battery was probably coming up for three years old, but it doesn't stop me from getting miffy that we've not even had 12 months out of our purchase before the battery has seemingly crapped out on us, despite having done as much as we reasonably could to try and prevent this from happening.

 

[TheBig1]

I'd kinda accepted that the battery was probably coming up for three years old, but it doesn't stop me from getting miffy that we've not even had 12 months out of our purchase before the battery has seemingly crapped out on us, despite having done as much as we reasonably could to try and prevent this from happening.

Not disagreeing with you at all. Quite common for the batteries to be taken out of all vans at the dealership for security and to charge and put in the same room. When refitting, no guarantee which battery was from which van etc. Just one of a few possibilities. I would be chasing the dealership if the van is under a year old for a replacement battery at their cost

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[Sunlovers]

Not disagreeing with you at all. Quite common for the batteries to be taken out of all vans at the dealership for security and to charge and put in the same room. When refitting, no guarantee which battery was from which van etc. Just one of a few possibilities. I would be chasing the dealership if the van is under a year old for a replacement battery at their cost

That makes a lot of sense, and yes, I did wonder whether that was the process employed for holding vans in stock. Definitely will be raising this as a warranty claim, along with having the battery master installation checked to ensure that it is actually doing what it's supposed to do. I've never been 100% happy with the performance of the battery master since new, as the cab battery always seemed to be somwhat low on voltage, but I so wanted to believe it was doing what it was intended to. During the winter months we kept the EHU plugged in, but since our last trip out in late April and with the weather improving I thought it a good idea to unhook the supply and just use the solar panel to support the systems .... pffft.

 

[Nedge68]

I have found this company very good in the past…

Bosch S5A13 AGM Car Battery: Type 019

The Bosch S5A13 battery with AGM technology provides enough power for frequent starts and stops. Backed by a 5 year car battery warranty.

www.batterymegastore.co.uk

 

[autorouter]

There are several different ways for a lead-acid battery to fail. The most common is a gradual reduction of capacity as 'sulphation' occurs, caused by leaving it for long periods at less than 100% charge. But another failure mode is a shorted cell. this is a sudden loss of one of the six cells inside the battery. The resting voltage drops from its normal value of about 12.6V to 5/6 of that value, which is 10.5V.

Since you measured a voltage of 10.2V, a shorted cell is a distinct possibility. If you fully charge it with the CTEK, then leave it to go to its resting voltage, you will be able to tell if that has happened. Be careful with the charging. If it has a shorted cell, then charging 5 cells at 14.4V is the equivalent of charging a normal 6-cell battery at 17.3V, so there is a danger of overcharging.

 

[Sunlovers]

Thanks for the detailed insight Autorouter, that all makes sense to me. I have been checking on the status of the maintenance charger as often as I can. The device itself is running warm (33°), but not hot, and I have it elevated to allow airflow underneath it too. The battery casing temperature appears to be OK (17°), scanning with an infra-red thermometer. The maintenance charge has now been operational for 24 hours and it's reached phase 7 of the 8 step LED spots on its charging process. I really wanted to let it complete its cycle before removing the charger, but now you've said that I might be overcharging it (if a cell has died), I am a little uncertain as to whether that's a good idea or not?

I will leave it for the next couple of hours and take a view then, as I shall want to let it sit for a couple of hours to go on its resting voltage before attempting to either measure it or to crank the engine over. We're supposed to be travelling Thursday AM so I am fast running out of time to resolve if I do need to go purchase a new truck battery.

 

[pappajohn]

Quite common for the batteries to be taken out of all vans at the dealership for security

After reading so many posts regarding failure of the airbag ECU due to prolonged removal of the battery I find that very difficult to believe.

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[Richard n Ann]

Our cab battery is 8 years old next month. It's always had maintainers on it mind. If I go abroad again I'll replace it first.

 

[Sunlovers]

After reading so many posts regarding failure of the airbag ECU due to prolonged removal of the battery I find that very difficult to believe.

I spoke with Chelston Motorhomes, and their top Tech guy said that they don't remove the cab batteries on any van stood in their yard. The sales team are supposed to periodically give them a trickle charge (but whether they actually do I would seriously doubt it). I did ask if I could expect any issues with having had the cab battery drop to 10.2v and his response was no, it should all be OK, just give it a good charge back up ..... Time is going to be the teller on this one.

 

[TheBig1]

After reading so many posts regarding failure of the airbag ECU due to prolonged removal of the battery I find that very difficult to believe.

The airbag failures caused by the battery are directly related to the battery being in a low state of charge when trying to start the engine. The failures due to corrosion are caused by condensation running down the firewall and behind the airbag module.

I have never heard of an airbag module failing due to the battery being removed in storage

 

[Sunlovers]

Battery now showing as fully charged, and upon disconnecting the CTEK charger it was sitting at 13.15v, but will now wait for an hour or so to check again before trying to crank the engine over. After five minutes it was showing 12.9v on the Metatrak App, so fingers crossed it may be OK for the foreseeable future. Update on the situation to follow later.

 

[Lenny HB]

My cab battery went low once at 4 years old down to around 11.5 v due to my CBE relay going intermitant (does similar job to Battery master).

Although it recharged fine I checked the capacity over a coupe of weeks and came to the conclusion it was down to around 60% capacity.

With all the problems with the airbag ECU, for the sake of a 100 quid not worth risking it so I bought a new battery.

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[Sunlovers]

My cab battery went low once at 4 years old down to around 11.5 v due to my CBE relay going intermitant (does similar job to Battery master).

Although it recharged fine I checked the capacity over a coupe of weeks and came to the conclusion it was down to around 60% capacity.

With all the problems with the airbag ECU, for the sake of a 100 quid not worth risking it so I bought a new battery.

Sound words, and like you, I probably won't want to risk having another failure just for the sake of not buying a new battery. The cost is almost irrelevant compared to the aggravation and upset incurred when the van won't start. Besides, I need to buy a new one just to get stuck into yet another warranty claim

 

[Sunlovers]

Two hours of resting post the battery being charged up, cab battery is showing 12.9v. Dashboard, however, is showing more error codes than I ever knew existed ..... now pending a visit from the FIAT Camper Assist provided local sub-contractor to do first OB diagnosis as the engine will not crank over under any circumstances. I am already praying to the gods of motorhoming that this is not going to turn into a major fiasco for us.

 

[autorouter]

It's holding its voltage at over 12V, so it looks like it's not a failed cell in the battery.

 

[PaulOH]

I sincerely hope that all those codes are simply as a result of the battery being out of whack, resulting in monitoring variations or errors.

If so, then the technician will check and delete them one by one.

I find it irritating in the extreme that we have become so beholden to a tech that is seemingly impenetrable. I'm not even sure it results in safer vans either.

My questionable eastern European-origin battery hasn't a single marking on it apart from positive/negative and I removed it and used a cheapo Amazon repair charger on it when it failed at 11volts earlier in the year. The van is started and moved about 7-8kms every week like a second vehicle and I haven't had a moment's bother since. It's too old to have error codes so don't know your pain on that one!

 

[Nedge68]

For peace of mind I would be changing the battery, or giving it a test run to check that after a number of Stop/Start operations it is performing correctly, cold weather will also have an effect on battery performance (if you can find somewhere cold!). You can’t be sure of the battery you have, you don’t even know if it is suitable for Stop/Start.

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[Sunlovers]

Yesterday afternoon I contacted FIAT Camper Assist as the battery, even having had a full charge over a 24 hour period was steadfastly unable to crank the engine over (at all). The recovery truck driver did no more than connect his jump leads to the battery (he couldn't find the positive jump point under the bonnet) and after what seemed like many minutes the engine finally started up. He then connected his OBD reader and began clearing down the fault codes. He was able to clear everything except the Stop/Start unavailable light and the standard amber engine management light.

He suggested I leave it running for an hour to try and put something into the battery (even though it was supposedly fully charged). We left the van running on the drive for an hour, then switched it off. An hour later I attempted to crank the engine and it was as if he'd never been with us. The battery was unable to do anything than utter an exhausted sigh (or was that me?) and crapped out again. I then removed the battery from the foot well and put it in our garage. At that point a tech mech friend popped round at 10:00pm with his Snap-On battery tester and did a load test, Because I had been faffing about with the battery the readings were spurious, around 80% capacity, and so we elected to leave it be until the morning and test it again after a resting period.

This morning I tested the battery under load conditions and it very quickly showed that the battery has dropped to circa 66% capacity, 54% at its lowest reading (it was varying between the two readings when load tested a couple of times). The below web link is the video of the load test I carried out this morning. As far as I can see, the battery is beyond recovery and I am going shopping for a new one today as we are due to be on the road for four days tomorrow.

Clearly all of the horrible dashlight warnings were due to the battery being very badly out of shape. I can live with the Stop/Start not being available until I can get the vehicle back to Chelston's for an inspection and fault clearing down/checking session, and fingers crossed there's no lasting damage to any of the other sensitive electronic components. Having now mulled the state of the battery, I am minded to think that it was probably manufactured during 2018/2019, with the cab chassis being moved from Fiat to Carthago during 2019, and then with the world turning inwards for 2020/2021 it just sat there waiting for an unsuspecting buyer (me!) to come along.

Battery Load Test WA21 GPV.mp4

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Nedge68]

When you put big load on the battery, (starting) the battery voltage will dip significantly with a poor battery, the low voltage can cause the feedback voltage of some sensors to be outside the expected range, this will bring on all kinds of error messages, which you will need an OBD device to clear.

 

[PaulOH]

I think it's necessary for a standard engine battery to be charged for a lot longer than an hour at engine power to recover! I charged mine for about 8 hours on the charger through a socket in the house and wondered if even that was enough.

My charger has a 'repair' setting - which claims to be able to restore an uncharged battery in some way. I imagine this is a 'get-you-home' measure as there is nothing a battery likes less than being discharged!

 

[Al n Val]

Sunlovers

“He was able to clear everything except the Stop/Start unavailable light and the standard amber engine management light.”

I hope this doesn’t dishearten you, 3 weeks we were parked up at a THS at Whitby, 2022 plate 180bhp Fiat 2300 done 1800 miles.

I only turned the key to allow me to lift the levelling rams and instantly got the “stop/start disabled” check engine and orange engine management warning light on. zeno issues with battery or starting whatsoever.

Long story short, new engine battery as my dealer has detected an issue with it, but the “DPF” filter is knackered, they are £1400 + vat apparently, a world shortage and no idea when Fiat can send one to the dealer

i hope your sensors is ok but it ain’t looking good

If it’s orange it’s drivable but red, you ain’t going anywhere

Al

 

[Nedge68]

New Fiats seem to suffer greatly from failed sensors in the exhaust system, I would question that a DPF had failed after only 1800 miles, the old tech measured the exhaust pressure before and after the DPF. The new ‘Soot’ sensor measures the level of particulates directly, they seem to have a very high failure rate, (we had a merc SLK which had the sensor replaced) They seem to be fitted to Euro 6 engines. I hope this is all covered by FIAT, if not there are specialist companies that with remove the cat from the vehicle and clean it.

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[Landy Andy]

New Fiats seem to suffer greatly from failed sensors in the exhaust system, I would question that a DPF had failed after only 1800 miles, the old tech measured the exhaust pressure before and after the DPF. The new ‘Soot’ sensor measures the level of particulates directly, they seem to have a very high failure rate, (we had a merc SLK which had the sensor replaced) They seem to be fitted to Euro 6 engines. I hope this is all covered by FIAT, if not there are specialist companies that with remove the cat from the vehicle and clean it.

But is it only motorhomes that are suffering these issues. The parcel delivery man doesn’t appear to have all the problems listed on here.

 

[Al n Val]

TBH if it wasn’t brand new and the fact I’m unable to drive for another 4 weeks i’d have it mapped out including the adblue sensor as well.

I’ve read that you should give the engine a good blast every now and then, and this may or may not clean the “system”. It didn’t work on my wife’s beema.

Well what if I don’t want to do this, what if I just want to tootle about and not break any speed limits and try to abide by the law.

It’s scandalous that a lot of modern day vehicles suffer from all these issues tbh

Al

 

[Lenny HB]

But is it only motorhomes that are suffering these issues. The parcel delivery man doesn’t appear to have all the problems listed on here.

You tend to get more problems on Motorhomes as they are not used daily leaving them sitting around is not good.

 

[Landy Andy]

And then gently driven around.

 

[Lenny HB]

Probably labouring pulling much higher loads 100% of the time, even if a parcel van is fully loaded it's not for long.

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