A Frame towing in France

[Simonnsj]

Hi All

Just thought I would post a quickie to say we used our A Frame towing system in France for the first time and I am pleased to say we did not experience any problems.

I was somewhat apprehensive as I know it is somewhat of a grey area in France. We travelled just south of Bergerac mainly using the N roads but also a couple of the toll roads too. To be honest we only saw a couple of Gendarmes whilst towing and they didn't give us a second glance. We spotted one other A Frame which was a UK registered MH but didn't get a chance to speak to the owners to ask about their experiences.

We stayed at a wonderful adult only campsite (5 pitches only) run by a lovely Dutch couple, Cees and Birgit - it is called Moulin Brule, Agnac, Lot-et-Garonne and it is located within a few KM's of Eymet - we would highly recommend this site to anyone wanting a bit of peace and quiet - www.campingmoulinbrule.com for anyone who may be interested.

Thanks.

Simon

 

[CAB96]

Bon chance!

 

[David and Sally]

It is illegal. Good luck

 

[bobnick]

Had we kept our MH the next step would have been a TOAD. Being a rebel and a gangster i would have taken the risk and used it in France/Spain etc etc.
We all break the law knowingly and unknowingly on a regular basis.

 

[Montezuma]

While A-frame towing is legal in the UK, it is generally not permitted for touring purposes in France. France, like many other European countries, often considers A-frame towing a form of recovery rather than regular transport. Therefore, if you plan to tour France with a motorhome, it's recommended to use a trailer to transport your car instead.

One pays one's money and one takes one's chance ?

It seems to be a very 'flexible' ruling.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[scotjimland]

A frame is Not type approved in France which makes it illegal to use. ..

 

[bobnick]

Last year when we were towing a car on a trailer in France we saw 6 different rigs A framing a car.
Yes i know i know It's illegal, we have all be told so many times...................i would still take the chance if we were to go back MHing.

 

[scotjimland]

A frame... almost as good as a toilet thread...


Gendarmerie nationale
MINISTÈRE DE L'INTÉRIEUR
PEUT-ON TRACTER UNE VOITURE AVEC UN CAMPING-CAR ?
La circulation d'un ensemble composé d'un véhicule à moteur (éventuellement un camping car) remorquant un autre véhicule à moteur n'est pas conforme à la réglementation routière.
Seul le cas particulier de la panne ou de l'accident peut justifier le remorquage d'un véhicule par un autre, sous réserve que cette opération s'effectue dans des conditions précises.
La seule façon licite de tracter une voiture à l'arrière d'un camping-car est d'utiliser une remorque adaptée et ayant fait l'objet d'une réception.


Google .

Note the term "legal"

National Gendarmerie
MINISTRY OF THE INTERIOR
CAN YOU TOW A CAR WITH A MOTORHOME?
Driving a combination of a motor vehicle (possibly a motorhome) towing another motor vehicle is not in compliance with road traffic regulations.
Only the specific case of a breakdown or accident can justify towing one vehicle behind another, provided that this operation is carried out under specific conditions.
The only legal way to tow a car behind a motorhome is to use a suitable, approved trailer.

 

[TCG]

Been towing via a A frame in France twice a year for the last ten years… never had a problem…. See quite a few French MH with a frame cars….
Forget all the “ it’s illegal” brigade. Yes it’s a grey area… but illegal??
We even had the police help me un hitch so I could turn 180 due to a closed road ahead

 

[BikerGraham]

Been towing via a A frame in France twice a year for the last ten years… never had a problem…. See quite a few French MH with a frame cars….
Forget all the “ it’s illegal” brigade. Yes it’s a grey area… but illegal??
We even had the police help me un hitch so I could turn 180 due to a closed road ahead

To be fair, this does not change then fact as ton whether it is legal or not.
It is not legal.
However , it is more to do with whether the. Police can be bothered to enforce the law in this particular area. Which would appear to be that they don’t.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[TCG]

Been towing via a A frame in France twice a year for the last ten years… never had a problem…. See quite a few French MH with a frame cars….
Forget all the “ it’s illegal” brigade. Yes it’s a grey area… but illegal??
We even had the police help me un hitch so I could turn 180 due to a closed road ahead

Yep loads of popcorn and wait for the incoming

 

[TCG]

To be fair, this does not change then fact as ton whether it is legal or not.
It is not legal.
However , it is more to do with whether the. Police can be bothered to enforce the law in this particular area. Which would appear to be that they don’t.

And long may it continue

 

[yorkiebar]

What would be the insurance implications of an accident involving the tow car while being towed ( in France ). Would your insurer not care and pay up, or determine it's illegal and refuse to pay out. Perhaps ring them up and clarify. Or just carry on carrying on....

 

[TCG]

What would be the insurance implications of an accident involving the tow car while being towed ( in France ). Would your insurer not care and pay up, or determine it's illegal and refuse to pay out. Perhaps ring them up and clarify. Or just carry on carrying on....

3rd party insurance for toad while towing

 

[Fdhadi]

While A-frame towing is legal in the UK, it is generally not permitted for touring purposes in France. France, like many other European countries, often considers A-frame towing a form of recovery rather than regular transport. Therefore, if you plan to tour France with a motorhome, it's recommended to use a trailer to transport your car instead.

One pays one's money and one takes one's chance ?

It seems to be a very 'flexible' ruling.

Define the words “Generally”, “often considers” and “recommended”.
None of these words mean “don’t” or “you must not”.

The official DVSA Driving Manual often uses the phrase “try to avoid”. Again, this doesn’t mean you cannot. The key word here being “Try”.

Terminology is a great get out clause.

Just saying

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[dunnah01]

Just don't come bleating on here in the unlikely event that you get stopped an asked to unhitch

 

[TCG]

Just don't come bleating on here in the unlikely event that you get stopped an asked to unhitch
And if ever that does happen.. the wife jumps in the toad and we meet 5 miles up the road to hitch up again
And if I did get a fine.. it would be a lot cheaper than hiring cars

 

[Brains]

Just don't come bleating on here in the unlikely event that you get stopped an asked to unhitch
And if ever that does happen.. the wife jumps in the toad and we meet 5 miles up the road to hitch up again
And if I did get a fine.. it would be a lot cheaper than hiring cars

I'm not sure you will have access to Motorhome Fun from your cell when your TOAD has a flat tyre which causes it to career across the carriage way into a coachload of children who then plummet over a 200m cliff.

 

[Jonno1103]

I'm not sure you will have access to Motorhome Fun from your cell when your TOAD has a flat tyre which causes it to career across the carriage way into a coachload of children who then plummet over a 200m cliff.

... and this is exclusive to European driving is it, tyres don't burst in the UK even though our road surfaces are far more inferior?

Once the tow car detaches, the brakes are immediately applied, a fail safe built into all modern electronic A frames. They also have proportionate braking too meaning the tow car brakes are applied at the same force as the motorhome. It's very, very rare to have a blow out in a tow car when hitched - hens teeth rare as there is no load in the vehicle and no drive.

It's not like putting a Halfords trailer on the back. The overriding issue is that many owners simply exploit their grandfather rights and have no actual clue how to tow or reverse with a trailer, tow car or even a wobble box and drive to the speed limit rather than what the load & size dictates. It's why the C category & B+E was removed in the first place. The problem is now compounded now as E was added to the B licence a few years ago... we have muppets wiggling down a motorway on their jollies dragging something behind because the can rather than because they're competent.

 

[TCG]

I'm not sure you will have access to Motorhome Fun from your cell when your TOAD has a flat tyre which causes it to career across the carriage way into a coachload of children who then plummet over a 200m cliff.

You have been watching to much TV

How can a 750k car pull a 4.5 ton MH to career off the road… really..!!!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[TCG]

I'm not sure you will have access to Motorhome Fun from your cell when your TOAD has a flat tyre which causes it to career across the carriage way into a coachload of children who then plummet over a 200m cliff.

I am sure my toad with electronic braking is a dam sight more efficient that a caravan with their braking system

 

[Fdhadi]

I'm not sure you will have access to Motorhome Fun from your cell when your TOAD has a flat tyre which causes it to career across the carriage way into a coachload of children who then plummet over a 200m cliff.

What if my car is on a trailer and the trailer has a flat tyre, that’s around 1.5t now careering over the carriage way into a coach load of children or don’t trailer’s get punctures?

 

[Brains]

What if my car is on a trailer and the trailer has a flat tyre, that’s around 1.5t now careering over the carriage way into a coach load of children or don’t trailer’s get punctures?

Not at all.
A dreadful accidents happen.

However there is no question as to the legality of the trailer.
However ..... a TOAD on the back is at the very least questionable, if not downright illegal.

9 months in a cell before your case comes to court before your Lawyer can argue the minutiae of the clauses in the local and EU statute books and only then may you be down to however the Judge decides on the issue.

Invariably followed by the appeals (from whichever side looses) which could see your cell becoming your home for a number of years.

 

[Brains]

I am sure my toad with electronic braking is a dam sight more efficient that a caravan with their braking system

That is not the point.
The wobble box or trailer is legal.

A TOAD on a A frame is at the very least questionable in most (all?) of the EU and actually listed as illegal in some countries such as Spain.

 

[Brains]

... and this is exclusive to European driving is it, tyres don't burst in the UK even though our road surfaces are far more inferior?

Once the tow car detaches, the brakes are immediately applied, a fail safe built into all modern electronic A frames. They also have proportionate braking too meaning the tow car brakes are applied at the same force as the motorhome. It's very, very rare to have a blow out in a tow car when hitched - hens teeth rare as there is no load in the vehicle and no drive.

It's not like putting a Halfords trailer on the back. The overriding issue is that many owners simply exploit their grandfather rights and have no actual clue how to tow or reverse with a trailer, tow car or even a wobble box and drive to the speed limit rather than what the load & size dictates. It's why the C category & B+E was removed in the first place. The problem is now compounded now as E was added to the B licence a few years ago... we have muppets wiggling down a motorway on their jollies dragging something behind because the can rather than because they're competent.

That however does not stop it lurching across to the other side of the line on a mountain pass,
which causes the coach loaded with children to hurtle over the 200m cliff.

It may be an accident, but the question will be if the TOAD was not legal, even if the coach driver was a drunk, blind, never taken his test and had dementia, these may not be mitigating factors.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[DDJC]

It's illegal in most of Europe.
We had a Suzuki Ignis on an A Frame.
Fine for UK and Ireland, not for the continent.
One day, on the M25, on our way to Betws y coed, the car started and blew a hole in the engine block. Four grand later and never again.

We motorhome mostly on the continent so, the A Frame went to the tip.

Buy a good twin axle railer with sprung ramps and a battery mover. Legal and easy. Better and more convenient than an A Frame. And no Gendarmes or Carabineri looking at you.

And if you want the best trailers. Go to Phoenix. Custom built to your spec and not requiring a second mortgage.

 

[TCG]

That is not the point.
The wobble box or trailer is legal.

A TOAD on a A frame is at the very least questionable in most (all?) of the EU and actually listed as illegal in some countries such as Spain.

You obviously do not match up to your avatar name … let’s leave it at that

 

[Brains]

You obviously do not match up to your avatar name … let’s leave it at that

Tell you what, I'll let you make up your own mind.
Here is a press report of a broadly similar case here I was involved with the court.

The "truck" was a Ford Transit, 3.8t/6.7m flatbed van (same size/weight as many motorhomes) was towing a trailer, which due to the weight contributed to the accident.
However the Police checked the trailer to the enth degree and it was found to be completely legal.

He admitted his guilt, I have removed the sentence from the text.
What do YOU think he got ?

• A fine (If so, how much?)
• A driving ban (if so, for how long?)
• A few months inside (if so, for how long?)
• A few years inside (if so, for how long?)

And how much more would he have been punished if the trailer was found to be illegal ?


Death of Logan Finch, 14, in Blackheath crash
22nd February

Frederick Mansfield drove his truck into a bus stop, killing Logan Finch

A truck driver has been jailed after he crashed into a bus stop in Blackheath, killing a 14-year-old boy.

Logan Finch was waiting for the 321 bus on Eltham Road with his aunt and cousins on December 21, 2021, when a truck driven by 43-year-old Frederick Mansfield veered onto the pavement.

Logan was tragically pronounced dead at the scene after he was pinned between the truck and the bus stop, while his aunt Rachel Poole was left with serious injuries.

Mansfield, who was not injured in the crash, appeared at Woolwich Crown Court today (February 22) where he was
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx for causing death by dangerous driving.

Natalie Roach, Logan’s mum, told the court: “Logan was a bright, energetic, playful and considerate young man, loving life and his family.

“There was so much love from people who knew Logan. He was everyone’s favourite person. Not a bad word could be said about Logan.”

During a trial, Mansfield had blamed a previously undiagnosed sleep condition for Logan’s death, as he claimed he had drifted off seconds before the crash.

But Natalie criticised Mansfield for pleading not guilty to causing Logan’s death and forcing them to endure an agonising trial.

“As a parent, we teach our children right and wrong. To be honest, Frederick Mansfield hasn’t done what is right,” she said.

‘On his way to get a haircut’

Logan was on his way to have a haircut in Eltham on the day of the crash. He was with his aunt, two of his cousins and a friend.

At 3.33pm the group were waiting at the bus stop near the junction with Kidbrooke Park Road when the tragedy took place.

Describing the incident, prosecutor Rupert Kent said: “Without any warning at all the defendant’s vehicle moved straight at this group. It came at them at some speed.

“It initially collided with a lamp post. It then collided with the bus stop causing some damage to it and in the process it hit Logan, it hit Rachel and it hit Rachel’s nine-year-old son.”

When the vehicle came to a rest it had pinned Logan against the bus stop, causing fatal injuries.

He was pronounced dead at the scene at 4.02pm.

Ms Poole was thrown to the ground and sustained serious injuries to her legs and chest. Her nine-year-old son escaped without serious injury.

Logan Finch was waiting at a bus stop on Eltham Road when he was killed by dangerous driving

Ten minutes after the crash had taken place, Mansfield was spoken to by police.

Bodyworn footage showed Mansfield telling an officer “I just put my foot on the wrong pedal” and “that was my fault mate”.

But when he was spoken to by another officer 45 minutes later Mansfield said: “I’m not going to lie, it’s a bit blurry. I must have either blacked out or fallen asleep.

“I was going up towards the bus stop and that boy was in front of us and just...”

He told officers he had never blacked out before.

Prosecutor Mr Kent described Mansfield's explanations as a “developing narrative”.

When he was formally interviewed the following day he said he couldn’t remember how it happened but he thought he might have blacked out and pressed the wrong pedal.

When Mansfield was interviewed again five months later he issued a prepared statement telling police that the crash was caused by his previously undiagnosed sleep apnoea.

Mansfield denied causing death and serious injury by dangerous driving, but on January 16 this year a jury found him guilty.

‘Logan will never be forgotten’

Reading a victim impact statement at Mansfield’s sentencing hearing, Logan's mum Natalie said her son was a bright and playful teenager.

She said: "To have my son taken by someone else’s actions hurts me everyday.

“He had a beautiful sister who was two years old when he died. She talks about him all the time.

“Logan will never be forgotten”.

She added: “I don’t understand how Frederick Mansfield pleaded not guilty to my son’s death. I pray and hope he gets the sentence he deserves.”

Logan’s dad, David Finch, described the pain he felt when he was told that his son had passed away.

“I remember that call like it was yesterday, my heart sunk. Hearing those words, we’re sorry but your son is dead, I will never forget,” he said.

“We live close to the area where it happened, we’re reminded of it and knowing that my son took his last breath without me there.”

David continued: “It wasn’t like he was running across the road to catch a bus, he was waiting at a place where he should have been safe. It makes it more difficult to understand why.

“We will never see him graduate and be that proud family. We will never see him get married and have a happy family. We never got to say goodbye. We never got a chance to hold his hand and say everything is okay.”

Rachel Poole, Logan’s aunt, has been left needing to use a wheelchair since the accident.

She told the court: “I am in my early 40s but I feel like I am in my 80s. My children have suffered because I have not been able to be the mother I used to be.”

Addressing Mansfield, Ms Poole said: “The driver of the lorry pleaded not guilty. It was a cowardly act. He should have owned up to what he’s done.

“Instead, we’ve had to relive the trauma over and over again for the past two years, then we’ve had to sit in the trial and hear it again.”

Seven years

Nicholas Cotter, representing Mansfield in court, said: “When he set out that day to go home, he wasn’t planning to not pay full attention or to fall asleep. He was not planning on harming anyone.”

He told the court that the guilt will stay with his client for the rest of his life.

Mansfield, from Hythe, is a father of two and is the operations director of an events company.

On the day of the crash he had been driving back to Kent from Central London.

Sentencing Mansfield, Judge Jonathan Mann KC said: “There’s no question that you didn’t set out to do anything bad to anybody that day.”

But he said that people who get behind the wheel of such large vehicles must drive responsibly.

“Those that do so bare a higher responsibility to be sensitive to the world around them as they drive. To be sensitive to the state of their vehicle and their own state,” he said.

“Because a failure to notice the world around them, or a failure to notice feeling tired, can have huge consequences.”

Addressing the cause of the crash, Judge Mann said: “It’s not clear what caused you to be distracted or not to be cognisant of what was going on – it was either distraction, or more likely, that you drifted off to sleep.”

He added: “I think the truth was said yourself 11 minutes after the accident, when you told a police officer ‘It’s my fault, I put my foot on the wrong pedal.”

 

[Northernraider]

I'm not sure you will have access to Motorhome Fun from your cell when your TOAD has a flat tyre which causes it to career across the carriage way into a coachload of children who then plummet over a 200m cliff.

Do you sleep wrapped up in bubble wrap?

 

[Northernraider]

Tell you what, I'll let you make up your own mind.
Here is a press report of a broadly similar case here I was involved with the court.

The "truck" was a Ford Transit, 3.8t/6.7m flatbed van (same size/weight as many motorhomes) was towing a trailer, which due to the weight contributed to the accident.
However the Police checked the trailer to the enth degree and it was found to be completely legal.

He admitted his guilt, I have removed the sentence from the text.
What do YOU think he got ?

• A fine (If so, how much?)
• A driving ban (if so, for how long?)
• A few months inside (if so, for how long?)
• A few years inside (if so, for how long?)

And how much more would he have been punished if the trailer was found to be illegal ?


Death of Logan Finch, 14, in Blackheath crash
22nd February

Frederick Mansfield drove his truck into a bus stop, killing Logan Finch

A truck driver has been jailed after he crashed into a bus stop in Blackheath, killing a 14-year-old boy.

Logan Finch was waiting for the 321 bus on Eltham Road with his aunt and cousins on December 21, 2021, when a truck driven by 43-year-old Frederick Mansfield veered onto the pavement.

Logan was tragically pronounced dead at the scene after he was pinned between the truck and the bus stop, while his aunt Rachel Poole was left with serious injuries.

Mansfield, who was not injured in the crash, appeared at Woolwich Crown Court today (February 22) where he was
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx for causing death by dangerous driving.

Natalie Roach, Logan’s mum, told the court: “Logan was a bright, energetic, playful and considerate young man, loving life and his family.

“There was so much love from people who knew Logan. He was everyone’s favourite person. Not a bad word could be said about Logan.”

During a trial, Mansfield had blamed a previously undiagnosed sleep condition for Logan’s death, as he claimed he had drifted off seconds before the crash.

But Natalie criticised Mansfield for pleading not guilty to causing Logan’s death and forcing them to endure an agonising trial.

“As a parent, we teach our children right and wrong. To be honest, Frederick Mansfield hasn’t done what is right,” she said.

‘On his way to get a haircut’

Logan was on his way to have a haircut in Eltham on the day of the crash. He was with his aunt, two of his cousins and a friend.

At 3.33pm the group were waiting at the bus stop near the junction with Kidbrooke Park Road when the tragedy took place.

Describing the incident, prosecutor Rupert Kent said: “Without any warning at all the defendant’s vehicle moved straight at this group. It came at them at some speed.

“It initially collided with a lamp post. It then collided with the bus stop causing some damage to it and in the process it hit Logan, it hit Rachel and it hit Rachel’s nine-year-old son.”

When the vehicle came to a rest it had pinned Logan against the bus stop, causing fatal injuries.

He was pronounced dead at the scene at 4.02pm.

Ms Poole was thrown to the ground and sustained serious injuries to her legs and chest. Her nine-year-old son escaped without serious injury.

Logan Finch was waiting at a bus stop on Eltham Road when he was killed by dangerous driving

Ten minutes after the crash had taken place, Mansfield was spoken to by police.

Bodyworn footage showed Mansfield telling an officer “I just put my foot on the wrong pedal” and “that was my fault mate”.

But when he was spoken to by another officer 45 minutes later Mansfield said: “I’m not going to lie, it’s a bit blurry. I must have either blacked out or fallen asleep.

“I was going up towards the bus stop and that boy was in front of us and just...”

He told officers he had never blacked out before.

Prosecutor Mr Kent described Mansfield's explanations as a “developing narrative”.

When he was formally interviewed the following day he said he couldn’t remember how it happened but he thought he might have blacked out and pressed the wrong pedal.

When Mansfield was interviewed again five months later he issued a prepared statement telling police that the crash was caused by his previously undiagnosed sleep apnoea.

Mansfield denied causing death and serious injury by dangerous driving, but on January 16 this year a jury found him guilty.

‘Logan will never be forgotten’

Reading a victim impact statement at Mansfield’s sentencing hearing, Logan's mum Natalie said her son was a bright and playful teenager.

She said: "To have my son taken by someone else’s actions hurts me everyday.

“He had a beautiful sister who was two years old when he died. She talks about him all the time.

“Logan will never be forgotten”.

She added: “I don’t understand how Frederick Mansfield pleaded not guilty to my son’s death. I pray and hope he gets the sentence he deserves.”

Logan’s dad, David Finch, described the pain he felt when he was told that his son had passed away.

“I remember that call like it was yesterday, my heart sunk. Hearing those words, we’re sorry but your son is dead, I will never forget,” he said.

“We live close to the area where it happened, we’re reminded of it and knowing that my son took his last breath without me there.”

David continued: “It wasn’t like he was running across the road to catch a bus, he was waiting at a place where he should have been safe. It makes it more difficult to understand why.

“We will never see him graduate and be that proud family. We will never see him get married and have a happy family. We never got to say goodbye. We never got a chance to hold his hand and say everything is okay.”

Rachel Poole, Logan’s aunt, has been left needing to use a wheelchair since the accident.

She told the court: “I am in my early 40s but I feel like I am in my 80s. My children have suffered because I have not been able to be the mother I used to be.”

Addressing Mansfield, Ms Poole said: “The driver of the lorry pleaded not guilty. It was a cowardly act. He should have owned up to what he’s done.

“Instead, we’ve had to relive the trauma over and over again for the past two years, then we’ve had to sit in the trial and hear it again.”

Seven years

Nicholas Cotter, representing Mansfield in court, said: “When he set out that day to go home, he wasn’t planning to not pay full attention or to fall asleep. He was not planning on harming anyone.”

He told the court that the guilt will stay with his client for the rest of his life.

Mansfield, from Hythe, is a father of two and is the operations director of an events company.

On the day of the crash he had been driving back to Kent from Central London.

Sentencing Mansfield, Judge Jonathan Mann KC said: “There’s no question that you didn’t set out to do anything bad to anybody that day.”

But he said that people who get behind the wheel of such large vehicles must drive responsibly.

“Those that do so bare a higher responsibility to be sensitive to the world around them as they drive. To be sensitive to the state of their vehicle and their own state,” he said.

“Because a failure to notice the world around them, or a failure to notice feeling tired, can have huge consequences.”

Addressing the cause of the crash, Judge Mann said: “It’s not clear what caused you to be distracted or not to be cognisant of what was going on – it was either distraction, or more likely, that you drifted off to sleep.”

He added: “I think the truth was said yourself 11 minutes after the accident, when you told a police officer ‘It’s my fault, I put my foot on the wrong pedal.”

Jeeso ...I wasted time reading all of that only to discover it has sod all to do with towing a car with a motorhome. AND the accident would have happened even if the guy wasn't towing a bleedin trailer.


Way to go off point lol.