12v charging conundrum

[Bruchel]

Apologies for what might be a long thread!! We're talking about a 2002 Swift Suntor, on a Ducato 2.8JTD (if that's relevant). No obvious mods/alterations that I can tell.

I have an issue which has gone from being on the longer term 'want' list, to the 'Better get that sorted ASAP' list! Basically, the on board 12v battery charger/transformer has gone pop, so the batteries aren't charging whilst on EHU. I took it out, found a small 2.5A fuse inside had blown, replaced it and hooked it back in the MH. Switched on, and BANG. Fuse went again. Replaced fuse and this time, I only connected it the 240v input side. I left the 12v output connectors off, in case there was something shorting it, but when I flicked the switch again - BANG, so I'm assuming the actual charger has some kind of fault.

We bought the MH July 2020, and it's our first one, so safe to say I'm still a newbie! I've read a bunch of threads on here about lithium batteries, solar panels, inverters etc etc) thanks especially Googlebot for the recent Lithium instal thread . I have a Mulitimeter, and I understand my way around my domestic 240v installation, but 12v is a whole new world for me!

Ultimately, I would like to instal solar, perhaps an inverter, and even upgrade to Lithium, but that will have to happen over time as funds allow. (I'm conscious that it's a 19 year old van though, so not sure on the merits of spending £££s on it, but I'd anticipate we might have it for 3 - 5 years before we can upgrade).

My question initially is "What would you do?" in terms of replacing the on board battery charger. I'd prefer not to buy something now, only to replace it 6 months down the line because I've added solar or swapped the Lead/acid for Lithium etc. This one doesn't seem to have a Lithium charging profile for example, so a like for like replacement seems pointless.

This is the charger in question...

And this is where it came from...

What else do you need to know?

Thanks Funsters!

 

[Dorset Diver]

I'm no expert but that unit looks like a dumb charger to me, i.e. not smart. Others with much more knowledge will be along soon to help but I suggest that as a minimum you replace it with a good quality smart charger. Good luck.

 

[Googlebot]

If it was mine, I would get a decent replacement with a lithium profile which aren’t any more expensive now.

I haven’t looked into which ones but Votronic and Victron are both great but pricey.

You can get the all in one beauties with internal MPPT for solar, B2B and mains charger.

<Broken link removed>

Not cheap but probably comparable when buying all three at once and much easier to install.

You can just use any decent charger to keep you going as long as it’s one designed to be left connected. It won’t be great long term but will do while you decide. Can be picked up for £20 on eBay.

 

[Pausim]

Your old charger, with a fixed 13.8V output, was more of a domestic supply than a charger. It will not have been charging any type of battery properly.

A switch mode charger that goes through bulk, absorption and float stages would be better. A charger which has a lithium profile will probably cost a bit more than one with only lead acid and gel profiles. However, one with a gel profile should look after a lithium battery well enough. This is the one I am using with a single 100Ah LiFePO4 battery.

CBE 16 amp Switch Mode Battery Charger 321516 - Rainbow Conversions Ltd

Buy cbe battery charger online with Rainbow Conversions UK - camping, motorhome and caravan equipment shop, CBE 240v 3 pin mains socket, CBE 12v switches, CBE 12v TV Satellite sockets, CBE 1-way, 2-way, 3-way support frames in various colours. CBE fresh water and waste water gauges, PC100...

www.rainbow-conversions.co.uk

If you have a big bank of batteries you may need something with a bit more than 16Ah.

 

[Googlebot]

Just to add the all in one units also make it easier to move to the next van so you aren’t throwing money away for the next buyer to use.

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[Bruchel]

If it was mine, I would get a decent replacement with a lithium profile which aren’t any more expensive now.

I haven’t looked into which ones but Votronic and Victron are both great but pricey.

You can get the all in one beauties with internal MPPT for solar, B2B and mains charger.

<Broken link removed>

Not cheap but probably comparable when buying all three at once and much easier to install.

You can just use any decent charger to keep you going as long as it’s one designed to be left connected. It won’t be great long term but will do while you decide. Can be picked up for £20 on eBay.

Ooh, as you say, pricey, but that triple charger would make a whole lot of sense and save on space/simplify wiring... I hadn't seen anything like that. I've seen various MPPT controllers, and various B2B chargers and like you say, that's no more expensive than buying all 3 separately. Looks like I have more homework to do. At that price, I might have to find a £20 eBay jobbie while I try to convince Mrs Bruchel. Pretty sure I don't have room for more than 250w of solar on my roof due to the overcab hump and general layout. Thinking of removing the TV antenna and replacing with one of those golf ball types on the outside of the roof rack.
Lots to do!!

 

[Googlebot]

Post some pictures and keep us updated.

 

[autorouter]

As mentioned above, the original charger is a simple 13.8V 16A fixed voltage charger. Smart chargers are now quite comparable in price to the replacement - even a top of the range one like this:

12V VICTRON ENERGY 15A 7 STAGE SMART BATTERY CHARGER WITH BLUETOOTH CONTROL - Alpha Batteries

Smart 7 Stage Bluetooth Control Charger by Victron

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

It has selectable battery types including lithium, and there's a Bluetooth app if you like that sort of thing.

 

[busbuddy]

View attachment 466371

Wow, that roof is clean
Mine is a 630g so slightly different layout but same roof rack but my 160w solar panel is bolted to the rack and is the full width of it

 

[Lenny HB]

Victron and Votronic are amongst the best but at a price, here is a cheap alternative I know one Funster that has one and gives a good report on it,

12V solar panels charging kits for caravans, motorhomes, boats, yachts, marine

12V solar panel solar charging kits for motorhome caravan boat campervan yacht marine off-grid

www.photonicuniverse.com

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Bruchel]

Wow, that roof is clean
Mine is a 630g so slightly different layout but same roof rack but my 160w solar panel is bolted to the rack and is the full width of it

Haha! busbuddy, despite its age, it'd been dry stored its whole life until we got it. I did wonder about fitting a solar panel to the roof rack, but thought that would render the whole roof rack unusable. We haven't really worked out if we'll use the roof rack yet. I do quite like the idea of a kayak
Thinking about it though, assuming the aerial has been removed, is there any reason I couldn't put a solar panel lengthways on the roof rack, on the passenger side, so that the driver side of the rack is still useable? Would love to see a photo of the way you've fixed your panel to the roof rack if you have one.

 

[Googlebot]

You can put the panels under the rack but the charging will be affected where they are shaded by the bars. The loss of power even by a little shade is huge when compared to the area shaded. This is why I clean even a bit of bird muck or a leaf or two off mine.

Of course a kayak on top will render them virtually useless.

If you decide to fix them to the rack just drill the side frame and rack and use right angle aluminium to bolt them on. Simple and effective and easy to remove if need be but I would waterproof the drilled rack if steel and use locking bolts.

I have canoes and kayaks, was thinking of a rack but it’s a long way up and a long way to fall if you are there regularly. For that reason we got a stand up paddle board that’s inflatable. Just as much fun and much easier than faffing on the roof.

 

[Ian Bosman]

Your old charger, with a fixed 13.8V output, was more of a domestic supply than a charger. It will not have been charging any type of battery properly.

A switch mode charger that goes through bulk, absorption and float stages would be better. A charger which has a lithium profile will probably cost a bit more than one with only lead acid and gel profiles. However, one with a gel profile should look after a lithium battery well enough. This is the one I am using with a single 100Ah LiFePO4 battery.

CBE 16 amp Switch Mode Battery Charger 321516 - Rainbow Conversions Ltd

Buy cbe battery charger online with Rainbow Conversions UK - camping, motorhome and caravan equipment shop, CBE 240v 3 pin mains socket, CBE 12v switches, CBE 12v TV Satellite sockets, CBE 1-way, 2-way, 3-way support frames in various colours. CBE fresh water and waste water gauges, PC100...

www.rainbow-conversions.co.uk

If you have a big bank of batteries you may need something with a bit more than 16Ah.

The CBE 516 is rated at 250 watts, here is the data sheet in Italian, English, German, French

 

[Pausim]

The CBE 516 is rated at 250 watts, here is the data sheet in Italian, English, German, French

I find the CBE 516 is adequate working with a single 100Ah LiFePO4 battery but the 16A output might not be sufficient for a larger battery bank. The 250 Watts is the input power at 230V. The gel setting voltage of 14.3V is within the charging parameters of 14.2-14.6V of my battery.

 

[Ian1004]

Apologies for what might be a long thread!! We're talking about a 2002 Swift Suntor, on a Ducato 2.8JTD (if that's relevant). No obvious mods/alterations that I can tell.

I have an issue which has gone from being on the longer term 'want' list, to the 'Better get that sorted ASAP' list! Basically, the on board 12v battery charger/transformer has gone pop, so the batteries aren't charging whilst on EHU. I took it out, found a small 2.5A fuse inside had blown, replaced it and hooked it back in the MH. Switched on, and BANG. Fuse went again. Replaced fuse and this time, I only connected it the 240v input side. I left the 12v output connectors off, in case there was something shorting it, but when I flicked the switch again - BANG, so I'm assuming the actual charger has some kind of fault.

We bought the MH July 2020, and it's our first one, so safe to say I'm still a newbie! I've read a bunch of threads on here about lithium batteries, solar panels, inverters etc etc) thanks especially Googlebot for the recent Lithium instal thread . I have a Mulitimeter, and I understand my way around my domestic 240v installation, but 12v is a whole new world for me!

Ultimately, I would like to instal solar, perhaps an inverter, and even upgrade to Lithium, but that will have to happen over time as funds allow. (I'm conscious that it's a 19 year old van though, so not sure on the merits of spending £££s on it, but I'd anticipate we might have it for 3 - 5 years before we can upgrade).

My question initially is "What would you do?" in terms of replacing the on board battery charger. I'd prefer not to buy something now, only to replace it 6 months down the line because I've added solar or swapped the Lead/acid for Lithium etc. This one doesn't seem to have a Lithium charging profile for example, so a like for like replacement seems pointless.

This is the charger in question...
View attachment 466292

And this is where it came from...View attachment 466293

What else do you need to know?

Thanks Funsters!

I've just removed a CBE516 charger from my 2016 Cathargo Compactline for a lithium upgrade. £60 + postage if its if any use to you.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[autorouter]

Victron and Votronic are amongst the best but at a price, here is a cheap alternative I know one Funster that has one and gives a good report on it,

I bought a cheaper multistage 20A charger (not the one in the link) that from the specs looked just as good as the best ones. However I found that it kept going into 'conditioning mode', with a voltage of 16V, and I couldn't find a way of stopping it. Power cycling restarted it, but eventually it went back to conditioning mode. I can't be sure, but I suspect it caused the Reich pump to fail. Maybe it's a faulty charger, maybe operator error, but now I only use it for limited charging, not for indefinite maintenance mode.

 

[Lenny HB]

Richard n Ann any comments on autorouter's post.

Richard why you keep changing your user name makes it dam difficult to tag you.

 

[Pausim]

I bought a cheaper multistage 20A charger (not the one in the link) that from the specs looked just as good as the best ones. However I found that it kept going into 'conditioning mode', with a voltage of 16V, and I couldn't find a way of stopping it. Power cycling restarted it, but eventually it went back to conditioning mode. I can't be sure, but I suspect it caused the Reich pump to fail. Maybe it's a faulty charger, maybe operator error, but now I only use it for limited charging, not for indefinite maintenance mode.

Conditioning chargers (ones with a desulphation phase) need to be avoided with LiFePO4 batteries. They send pulses of higher voltage to dislodge the sulphates from the lead plates and will probably trigger the BMS high voltage cut out in an Li one.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Richard n Ann any comments on autorouter's post.

Richard why you keep changing your user name makes it dam difficult to tag you.

Sorry I was just feeling daft... It's worn off now
Autorouter says it's not the charger in your link . Ours has been great although I don't switch it on much because in Benidorm it's all solar and at home I use an optimate2 0.8amp maintainer. I had it on a few days at first though and it was all good

 

[Bruchel]

I've just removed a CBE516 charger from my 2016 Cathargo Compactline for a lithium upgrade. £60 + postage if its if any use to you.

View attachment 466497

Thanks Ian. I'm very tempted to go down the Lithium route myself in the not too distant future, so I feel like my hand is being forced into something more elaborate/expensive! I'm sure someone here can give it a good home.
Useful info from Pausim about conditioning chargers that have a desulphation phase being bad for LiFePO4s.

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[Ian Bosman]

I find the CBE 516 is adequate working with a single 100Ah LiFePO4 battery but the 16A output might not be sufficient for a larger battery bank. The 250 Watts is the input power at 230V. The gel setting voltage of 14.3V is within the charging parameters of 14.2-14.6V of my battery.

Question, is it cheaper to install two individual CBE type chargers (mine is fitted as new with one) along with the cableing obviously or go to a more expensive overall lithium enabled charger?

 

[Pausim]

Question, is it cheaper to install two individual CBE type chargers (mine is fitted as new with one) along with the cableing obviously or go to a more expensive overall lithium enabled charger?

I think I would choose to go down the route of a new charger with an Li profile rather than double up something which is ok but not specifically designed for the job.

 

[busbuddy]

Would love to see a photo of the way you've fixed your panel to the roof rack if you have one.

Not quite the full width, my bad memory

I had a limited space between bathroom and bedroom skylights, fitted the biggest panel I could get (160w) that would just allow both skylights to fully open

My roofrack should be same as yours being factory swift, I turned the crossbar over and they are slotted on that side so you can slide a bolt head in, drill the bottom of panel frame and bolt it down

You could get away with panels the other way as your skylight just goes straight up so would probably not interfere with a panel, need to get up there with a tape measure and then trawl the net as panel sizes change all the while
And I need to get on my roof and clean it

 

[Bruchel]

Not quite the full width, my bad memory
View attachment 467498

I had a limited space between bathroom and bedroom skylights, fitted the biggest panel I could get (160w) that would just allow both skylights to fully open
View attachment 467499

My roofrack should be same as yours being factory swift, I turned the crossbar over and they are slotted on that side so you can slide a bolt head in, drill the bottom of panel frame and bolt it down

You could get away with panels the other way as your skylight just goes straight up so would probably not interfere with a panel, need to get up there with a tape measure and then trawl the net as panel sizes change all the while
And I need to get on my roof and clean it

I'm actually just about to get my ladder out and measure the space I have, so I can work out what size of panel I could get. Good to know about flipping the bars over to use the groove. Thanks busbuddy

 

[busbuddy]

Whilst you are online shopping buy led bulbs for all the interior lights, they are one of the biggest power killers

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[Bruchel]

Whilst you are online shopping buy led bulbs for all the interior lights, they are one of the biggest power killers

LED's were one of my first purchases! I was amazed that most of the bulbs were 10w. I can now turn on all my lights, and draw the same power that one did previously! I think the awning bulb was 20w!
I measured up on the roof rack and looks like I could get up to a 150x75cm panel up there, so at least 150w. My cross bars are the same as yours, with the slot currently underneath, but I'll flip them over. Thanks for the photos.
I opened the bathroom skylight, and it pops up higher than the roof rack so if I do end up with a roof box or kayak etc, I won't be able to open the vent! Not the end of the world though.

 

[busbuddy]

There were 16 10w halogens in mine
You might squeeze a 250w on the rack and space the kayak/roof box up

 

[cmcardle75]

LED's were one of my first purchases! I was amazed that most of the bulbs were 10w. I can now turn on all my lights, and draw the same power that one did previously! I think the awning bulb was 20w!
I measured up on the roof rack and looks like I could get up to a 150x75cm panel up there, so at least 150w. My cross bars are the same as yours, with the slot currently underneath, but I'll flip them over. Thanks for the photos.
I opened the bathroom skylight, and it pops up higher than the roof rack so if I do end up with a roof box or kayak etc, I won't be able to open the vent! Not the end of the world though.

I was originally going for about 400W on the roof. However, with Lithium prices going down, 400W and a decent MPPT charger now goes a substantial way towards a 300Ah Lithium battery (especially as you can also save on a smart shunt if you get a Bluetooth BMS). With my travelling profile (lots of driving with a B2B and being happy to get an occasional emergency EHU) that will almost certainly suffice for my needs. Even with a compressor fridge, the 180Ah lead acid lasts nearly 3 days without charging, so the Lithium should last a week. And I simply don't sit for a week lazing on the beach. On holiday I average 1500 miles per week. I also do a lot of winter stuff where solar's no use anyway. It lives on the drive on hookup, so no issues with winter maintenance charges. It'll be a ballache installing all the solar, whereas the lithium would just drop right in for 15 minutes' work. Finally, the van's pretty stealthy at the moment, being white with all the windows with a special police white tint that makes them look like side panels.

Everyone's usage patterns vary, though.

 

[Bruchel]

Just thought I'd post an update here and say thanks to everyone for your help.

I opted to spend a bit extra and plumped for the Victron 12|30|3 so that I can charge the starter and Hab batteries when on EHU. I can change the profile if I end up with a Lithium. I've temporarily reused the existing wires to the leisure battery, so have changed the settings to 15a, but when I get round to running cables to the starter battery, (and probably move it to under the bench next to the wardrobe), I'll upgrade the existing/original flimsy cables so that I can use the full 30a if I ever need it.
Loving the bluetooth app too - next on the list is the Victron B2B! Expensive hobby this, innit?

 

[Coolcats]

Ooh, as you say, pricey, but that triple charger would make a whole lot of sense and save on space/simplify wiring... I hadn't seen anything like that. I've seen various MPPT controllers, and various B2B chargers and like you say, that's no more expensive than buying all 3 separately. Looks like I have more homework to do. At that price, I might have to find a £20 eBay jobbie while I try to convince Mrs Bruchel. Pretty sure I don't have room for more than 250w of solar on my roof due to the overcab hump and general layout. Thinking of removing the TV antenna and replacing with one of those golf ball types on the outside of the roof rack.
Lots to do!!

View attachment 466371

You can get semi flexible or flexible solar panels. I believe that the ones that 'stick on' are not quite as efficient as the panel that has a gap underneath as the gap allows for cooling but there are many Boats and MoHo's out there with these.

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