speed limits over 3500kg (1 Viewer)

[Deleted member 29692]

Unladen weight is determined by the manufacturer of the base vehicle. I assume that it would therefore exclude the added weight of the conversion that brings it up to the MIRO.

That's what makes it such a meaningless figure for a motorhome and makes using it to determine speed limits so pointless.

If the pre-conversion chassis weight is used then we're all going to be a long long way under 3050kg. A base chassis probably weighs about 1500kg max.

 

[Lenny HB]

13 is the base vehicle MIRO 3220kg
13.2 is the MIRO with factory fitted extras 3262 kg. The weight your van left the factory, you then need to add on any extras the dealer or you have fitted.
The unladen would be 3262 plus any extras less the inclusions such as driver at 75kg 90% (67kg) fuel, 20kg water, 1 gas bottle. Then you need to take off weight of oil & water in the engine.
You are probably over the 3050, how anyone who prove it is another story.

 

[AndyV]

The journey is part of the adventure to me. I love driving but limit the time on the road as there is always others to think about (dog).
The speed limit you will really have to be cautious about if you come to France, from July onwards this year is on the Route National single carriage ways. The speed limit will be reduced to 80KPH . Worrying for us lot as we come right into Heavy Lorry speed range, they can quite easily overtake you at that speed even though they are not allowed to. Their speed limiters allow them to go upto a shade near 90Kph . If there are any Gendarme about with their speed guns the lorries very seldom get caught as they all have methods of warning each other.
Its a stupid law that will cause more accidents. It was brought in as the youth of France are killing themselves & others at an alarming rate. This is not going to change a thing. The days of cruising along those long straight RN routes with not much to worry about might have gone forever especially when you have a massive HVG grunting behind you looking for the overtake. I really hope this law is reversed

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[MillieMoocher]

I do agree with you @AndyV about the journey, just what we do too. Holiday starts as soon as the key is turned on the drive!

From my perspective it’s about knowing what the limit is rather than doing it. For example in the U.K. I generally travel at 60 ish on motorway or dual carriageway but I will go faster to get round other vehicles that may be going a couple of mph less than I want to . So it’s really about knowing that I can legally burst up to 70, overtake, come back in and drop back speed than sitting at 70 all day.

Probably more relavent on single carriageways where 50 can be hard to stick to without drifting up a couple of mph. Much more relaxing not to have to drive with one eye on the speedo all the time to avoid a ticket.

For sure I notice the fuel consumption difference between a 60 cruising speed and a 70 cruising speed. That’s enough to keep things in check

 

[Clarky]

Following this thread I have just checked the various documents for our 4500kg Carthago C-Line.
The only weight on the V5c is 'Revenue Weight' = 4500kg
On the Cert of Conformity at 13.1
'Masse des fahrbereiten Fahrzeuges mit Aufbau (Serie)', which translates as
'Mass of the ready-to-drive vehicle with construction' = 3305kg.
In the Carthago technical data it shows 'Weight in running order = 3220kg.
Unladen weight finished factory condition = 3035kg.

So, for the last 3 years I've been driving like a nun, making sure I kept to the heavier speed limits ie; 30, 50, 60,70 particularly through average speed cameras, when I needn't have worried.
I can keep up with the BMW's and Audi's now........but only in the UK.

Richard.

 

[The Flute]

Seems crazy that my Lightweight Brand New Renault Trafic is restricted to 60 on Dual Carriage way But I can do 70 in my Motorhome!!!

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[peterc10]

Seems crazy that my Lightweight Brand New Renault Trafic is restricted to 60 on Dual Carriage way But I can do 70 in my Motorhome!!!

No you can't. 70mph only on motorways.

 

[Detnor]

This has got me looking at the c of c's from my van, well it is Sunday.
The Mercedes c of c identifies the vehicle as a sprinter, class N2, with a mass after completion of 2356kg.
The Hymer c of c now changes the class to M1 and unladen weight of 2938kg. The weight in running order is shown as 3186kg with a revenue weight of 3880kg.
So I assume the Mercedes document would satisfy the UK speed requirements. Off subject but often discussed, the crit'air data is given as M1 and it is over 3500kg.

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

So, can I drive at “car” speeds Mrs @Chrysalis ?

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[soreeyes]

Unladen weight is now been absorbed into Miro or Kerbweight as unladen weight is not clearly defined .

Unladen weight is as the vehicle is ready to use .

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

 

[peterc10]

Unladen weight is now been absorbed into Miro or Kerbweight as unladen weight is not clearly defined .

Unladen weight is as the vehicle is ready to use .

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

MIRO includes allowances for fuel, driver gas bottle and some water. It is therefore higher than the unladen weight as defined in your link.

 

[soreeyes]

MIRO includes allowances for fuel, driver gas bottle and some water. It is therefore higher than the unladen weight as defined in your link.

Where do I find a unladen weight declared to enable a prosecution ?

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[Deleted member 29692]

Unladen weight is now been absorbed into Miro or Kerbweight as unladen weight is not clearly defined .

Unladen weight is as the vehicle is ready to use .

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

MIRO includes allowances for fuel, driver gas bottle and some water. It is therefore higher than the unladen weight as defined in your link.

Also MIRO has no specific definition. Different converters can and do use different criteria when they give an MIRO figure. They're also free to change their criteria at will.

Even if we disregard their tendencies to be hopelessly optimistic when quoting a figure and assume that every manufacturer quoted figure is 100% accurate the fact that it's pretty much an arbitrary number makes MIRO completely useless for any statutory or legal purposes and so it will never be used or accepted as such.

For that to change two things would need to happen: firstly there would need to be a Europe wide exact legal definition of MIRO agreed, specified and adopted and then secondly there would have to be a strict requirement on converters to provide an accurate certificated figure. For avoidance of doubt the fantasy numbers they currently quote on marketing materials are neither accurate or certificated.

Even if those two things happened, which they won't, it would only be able to be applied to new vehicles. Trying to apply it retrospectively to existing vehicles would be impossible.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Where do I find a unladen weight declared to enable a prosecution ?

You can't. That's the point. No such figure is recorded.

That makes the UK method of applying speed limits to motor caravans completely unenforceable for all practical purposes.

If anyone cared enough to do anything about it, which nobody does, the fix would be nothing to do with MIRO. They would simply use MGW instead, like they do for every single other class of vehicle, and say >3500kg the lower limits apply.

This topic comes up every few months. It's been done to death.

 

[The Flute]

No you can't. 70mph only on motorways.

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
I must be reading this wrong then I'm sure it Says a motorhome under 3.05 ton can do 70 on a dual carriage. Can you explain it to me Peter???

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[TheDogMan]

I got done by a mobile speed trap driving a medium wheelbase sprinter van at 61mph on a single carriageway,I was told as far as the authorities were concerned it was commercial vehicle and I was 11mph over the limit, a solicitor friend said if I went to court I would be found guilty BUT if got a solicitor and appealed I may get reversed, I paid it !

 

[Deleted member 29692]

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
I must be reading this wrong then I'm sure it Says a motorhome under 3.05 ton can do 70 on a dual carriage. Can you explain it to me Peter???

It does say that.

Don't worry about it though because even if you happened to be stopped by the only copper in the country who knows about this absurd anomaly in the law nobody has the first clue what your unladen weight is so there's no way they can prosecute you.

 

[peterc10]

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
I must be reading this wrong then I'm sure it Says a motorhome under 3.05 ton can do 70 on a dual carriage. Can you explain it to me Peter???

OOps sorry, thought you were talking about over 3.05t

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[The Flute]

F

It does say that.

Don't worry about it though because even if you happened to be stopped by the only copper in the country who knows about this absurd anomaly in the law nobody has the first clue what your unladen weight is so there's no way they can prosecute you.

A mate of mine got done by ANPR camera. New transit van doing 68 on dual carriageway. Got points and a fine!!

 

[Deleted member 29692]

F

A mate of mine got done by ANPR camera. New transit van doing 68 on dual carriageway. Got points and a fine!!

In a motorhome? If so did the charge specifically mention unladen weight?

A commercial van is a completely different class of vehicle, with different speed limits, determined in a different way, to a motor caravan.

 

[The Flute]

In a motorhome? If so did the charge specifically mention unladen weight?

A commercial van is a completely different class of vehicle, with different speed limits, determined in a different way, to a motor caravan.

No was a commercial van. But can't understand why a motorhome is allowed 70 but a commercial van 60. I'm sure my van would stop a lot quicker

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[Deleted member 29692]

No was a commercial van. But can't understand why a motorhome is allowed 70 but a commercial van 60. I'm sure my van would stop a lot quicker

It's an old law that nobody cares about so it will just stay on the books. There was probably a good reason for it at the time although I have no idea what that might have been.

The people who would have the power to do something about it if they cared have got better things to do than go through the process needed to change an old law that only affects a tiny minority of people and is unenforceable anyway.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

This is how absurd it is:

The only class of vehicle that has speed limits determined by unladen weight is also the only class of vehicle where unladen weight is not recorded by the manufacturer.

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

Does this help?

PV: le poids à vide

Le poids à vide en ordre de marche, donné par le constructeur, correspond au poids du véhicule camping-car en ordre de marche, c'est à dire avec :
- un conducteur (compté forfaitairement pour 75 kg),
- le carburant (réservoir plein ),
- les fluides du moteur: huile, eau de refroidissement,
- la roue de secours, le cric, la manivelle, l'outillage en dotation,
- l'extincteur,
- les équipements montés d'origine,
- l'eau propre (réservoir plein à 90%),
- le gaz : 1 bouteille pleine.

Dans le cas des camping-cars, le poids à vide du porteur d'origine (Fiat, Ford, Renault...) est remplacé par celui de l'aménageur ((Pilote, Hymer, Burstner, Rapido...) qui lui est forcément supérieur

In English from Google

PV: the empty weight

The curb weight, given by the manufacturer, corresponds to the weight of the motorhome vehicle in running order, ie with:
- a driver (counted at a flat rate of 75 kg),
- fuel (full tank),
- the engine fluids: oil, cooling water,
- the spare wheel, the jack, the crank, the tools provided,
- fire extinguisher,
- equipment fitted originally,
- clean water (90% full tank),
- the gas: 1 full bottle.

In the case of motorhomes, the empty weight of the original carrier (Fiat, Ford, Renault ...) is replaced by that of the developer ((Driver, Hymer, Burstner, Rapido ...) who is necessarily supe

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[2657]

Does this help?

PV: le poids à vide

Le poids à vide en ordre de marche, donné par le constructeur, correspond au poids du véhicule camping-car en ordre de marche, c'est à dire avec :
- un conducteur (compté forfaitairement pour 75 kg),
- le carburant (réservoir plein ),
- les fluides du moteur: huile, eau de refroidissement,
- la roue de secours, le cric, la manivelle, l'outillage en dotation,
- l'extincteur,
- les équipements montés d'origine,
- l'eau propre (réservoir plein à 90%),
- le gaz : 1 bouteille pleine.

Dans le cas des camping-cars, le poids à vide du porteur d'origine (Fiat, Ford, Renault...) est remplacé par celui de l'aménageur ((Pilote, Hymer, Burstner, Rapido...) qui lui est forcément supérieur

In English from Google

PV: the empty weight

The curb weight, given by the manufacturer, corresponds to the weight of the motorhome vehicle in running order, ie with:
- a driver (counted at a flat rate of 75 kg),
- fuel (full tank),
- the engine fluids: oil, cooling water,
- the spare wheel, the jack, the crank, the tools provided,
- fire extinguisher,
- equipment fitted originally,
- clean water (90% full tank),
- the gas: 1 full bottle.

In the case of motorhomes, the empty weight of the original carrier (Fiat, Ford, Renault ...) is replaced by that of the developer ((Driver, Hymer, Burstner, Rapido ...) who is necessarily supe

The unladen weight has no legal meaning anywhere in Europe except for this one obscure limit that was obviously overlooked when all others were updated to comply with EU regs.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Not for motorhomes, as already stated speed limits defined by 3050k(3 tons) unladen weight, which is almost impossible to define for a motorhome but definitely not MIRO.

I am going to take as much out of mine that weighed anything gas, spare wheel, mattresses, food, fuel, water etc., and weigh it like that and it is 2970kg . Going to keep the certificate in the vehicle documents just in case yo never know and neither does the average plodman.

 

[2657]

I am going to take as much out of mine that weighed anything gas, spare wheel, mattresses, food, fuel, water etc., and weigh it like that and it is 2970kg . Going to keep the certificate in the vehicle documents just in case yo never know and neither does the average plodman.

Personally I would not bother, the chances of this legislation being enforced on most smallish motorhomes is extremely remote.

Your motorhome has a stated MIRO of 3050k in any case.

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[Deleted member 29692]

I am going to take as much out of mine that weighed anything gas, spare wheel, mattresses, food, fuel, water etc., and weigh it like that and it is 2970kg . Going to keep the certificate in the vehicle documents just in case yo never know and neither does the average plodman.

That's still not unladen weight.

You'd need to drain and flush the fuel, lubrication and coolant systems of the engine as well and you might be getting close.

 

[Clarky]

Basically, any motorhome, apart from the really big trucks on Iveco chassis (or similar), will be under the magic 3050kg.
Therefore they will all be subject to the same speed limits as cars, but only in the UK.
There, that sums up many pages of discussion on the subject.

Next subject please............

Richard.

 

[tonyidle]

That's still not unladen weight.

You'd need to drain and flush the fuel, lubrication and coolant systems of the engine as well and you might be getting close.

............. and, if it's A class or coachbuilt, remove the body as well?

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