Is lithium now cheaper than LA?

Carpmart said:
Amazon prime offer here!

100Ah £186

Is this per useable Amp cheaper than decent quality lead acid leisure batteries?

Disclaimer: I've no idea if these are any good but with Amazon, you can return easily if needed!
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When you say decent quality lead acids do you mean a recognised brand because the lithium's you posted are a make I've never heard of!
 
The Wino said:
When you say decent quality lead acids do you mean a recognised brand because the lithium's you posted are a make I've never heard of!
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I do indeed mean a decent brand LA. It’s the only way you can get a battery for the stated capacity. With lithium, there is no smoke and mirrors. Yes you may get B cells with higher IR, but for leisure applications (except high load inverter use) it really doesn’t matter.

Seems incredible VFM @186 squids.
 
And considering there are more usable amps.

One of these from china cost me 400 a year or so ago

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Vanman said:
Just a word of warning, replacing LA with lithium is rarely as simple as just swapping them over. There are a multitude of threads that discuss the other changes required.
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Yep, loads of scare stories. You may not have optimal performance, but it will work fine…
 
In a word - No. I do not know the age of your van (the latest RS Endeavour comes equipped with Lithium Ion so it is obviously older than that).

You will almost certainly need a new charger. You will also likely want various other gizmos such a B2B and an inverter (or much larger than your current inverter). There is then the cost of fitting such devices unless you are competent to fit them yourself.

Chris
 
PlacidoD said:
In a word - No. I do not know the age of your van (the latest RS Endeavour comes equipped with Lithium Ion so it is obviously older than that).

You will almost certainly need a new charger. You will also likely want various other gizmos such a B2B and an inverter (or much larger than your current inverter). There is then the cost of fitting such devices unless you are competent to fit them yourself.

Chris
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No to what? Charger set to gel will work fine.

You really don’t NEED to change anything with a swap to lithium. Many do, but its choice.

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There are 'drop in replacements' which are fine!

I have 2x100AHr, 530w solar, 3kw inverter, Smart shunt and victron controller. Otherwise everything as was.

Works like a dream.

We use the last of the power to heat the water for our shower each morning, provided it's going to be reasonably sunny.

Tony
 
I'd rather pay a little more and get the economy Fogstar battery. I believe we even have an MHF discount available.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Drift ECO 100Ah 12V Leisure Battery

The Fogstar Drift ECO is your gateway to reliable, budget-friendly off-grid power. With a superb 100Ah capacity and 1250Wh of usable energy, the Drift ECO is perfect for powering everything from leisure applications like camping and caravanning to professional use cases like solar energy storage.
www.fogstar.co.uk www.fogstar.co.uk
 
Carpmart said:
No to what? Charger set to gel will work fine.

You really don’t NEED to change anything with a swap to lithium. Many do, but its choice.
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I am not a mind reader. How do I know you have a charger which can be set to gel? (My post says "You will almost certainly need a new charger." given that I do not know that information.) I am sure I would need one to get decent performance out of LiFePO4 on my van. It is cheaper for me to install a 2nd leisure battery for less than £100 rather than replacing charger and existing leisure battery.

You obviously have more experience of motor-homing than me now I have looked but that does not tell me that you know one end of a 12v system from the other. There are lots of people on this Forum that do not even know the whereabouts of their 12V fuse box!!

Chris
 
Tigger-Tim said:
I'd rather pay a little more and get the economy Fogstar battery. I believe we even have an MHF discount available.

www.fogstar.co.uk

Drift ECO 100Ah 12V Leisure Battery

The Fogstar Drift ECO is your gateway to reliable, budget-friendly off-grid power. With a superb 100Ah capacity and 1250Wh of usable energy, the Drift ECO is perfect for powering everything from leisure applications like camping and caravanning to professional use cases like solar energy storage.
www.fogstar.co.uk www.fogstar.co.uk
Click to expand...

Fogster is not for sale yet, but I get you based on the reputation of their drift range. However, they could be exactly the same battery made in the same factory! 🤷‍♂️ 🤪

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I'm guessing none of these have Bluetooth ?
 
PlacidoD said:
I am not a mind reader. How do I know you have a charger which can be set to gel? (My post says "You will almost certainly need a new charger." given that I do not know that information.) I am sure I would need one to get decent performance out of LiFePO4 on my van. It is cheaper for me to install a 2nd leisure battery for less than £100 rather than replacing charger and existing leisure battery.

You obviously have more experience of motor-homing than me now I have looked but that does not tell me that you know one end of a 12v system from the other. There are lots of people on this Forum that do not even know the whereabouts of their 12V fuse box!!

Chris
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Hello Chris

I’ve got lithium batteries already. My post was just a heads up for others. I was also amazed at how the price has plummeted recently.

FYI, any lead profile on a charger will do, so the charger yiu had would have been fine, the battery will accept the charge with no issue. It may not be the 100% optimised setup one could enjoy with a lithium profile, but would work!
 
PlacidoD said:
In a word - No. I do not know the age of your van (the latest RS Endeavour comes equipped with Lithium Ion so it is obviously older than that).

You will almost certainly need a new charger. You will also likely want various other gizmos such a B2B and an inverter (or much larger than your current inverter). There is then the cost of fitting such devices unless you are competent to fit them yourself.

Chris
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Like you said you are no mind reader.....trust me though . Carpmart is fully kitted out, I assumed he was taking regards people wanting to get in the the best way of harvesting power.

But to give it a twist, your post could easily have said yeah it's great idea for those who have the existing setup and cabling to suit (many do) and standard chargers work fine for many, just not as efficient

It's glass half empty or half full I spose.

And the other side is there are many on here who manage with 90ah and have done so for years.

Horses for courses.

..
 
Carpmart said:
FYI, any lead profile on a charger will do,
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I'd say a lead-acid AGM charging profile, which has an absorption stage of a few hours at 14.7V to 14.8V, will not do for a lithium battery, and could overcharge it. It's a very bad idea to overcharge lithium batteries, it degrades them very quickly.

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autorouter said:
I'd say a lead-acid AGM charging profile, which has an absorption stage of a few hours at 14.7V to 14.8V, will not do for a lithium battery, and could overcharge it. It's a very bad idea to overcharge lithium batteries, it degrades them very quickly.
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What’s the BMS doing whilst this overcharging is happening?
 
autorouter said:
Yes, I must admit it's quite likely that the battery has a BMS, and there's a good chance that it's capable of detecting a small overvoltage and shutting down the charging.
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Apologies… my previous post sounded a tad sarcastic… typing too quickly and not proof reading! 🤦‍♂️

The BMS will ensure no damage. As I’ve said a few times, yes the optimal set up will be all lithium compliant charging, but all will be fine with a non optimised charging source or sources.
 
I have just spent €650 (plus IVA) on another pair of Rolls deep cycle, lead acid batteries for my "Solar Farm"...

...the supplier wanted me to buy lithium batteries for even more money but couldn't tell me where to top them up with distilled water or where to put in the "thingy" to draw up the sulphuric acid to check the specific gravity...

...he just kept going on about BMS's and profile settings on the charge controllers.

I like to understand and, if possible control, my stuff which is why I don't have an OBD plug in point in my van but do have a reachable bonnet release catch so I can open it and look at the engine.

I'm a tad upset right at this moment because it appears that my 470 amp-h capacity is fully full, it's only 4.45pm and the sun is still blazing away and is expected to do so for a couple more hours.

Oh well... never mind.


JJ :cool:
 
If the battery has no bms then your asking for trouble advising people to switch to a profile on an unknown charger and continue. You don't know enough about the charger type or the battery bms, what you are suggesting is dangerous

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tinkertaylor said:
If the battery has no bms then your asking for trouble advising people to switch to a profile on an unknown charger and continue. You don't know enough about the charger type or the battery bms, what you are suggesting is dangerous
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Poppycock!

There is no such thing as Lithium leisure battery without a BMS. Missing Bluetooth or warming pads yes of course, poor quality B grade cells, yes of course, without a BMS it wouldn’t be a battery.
 
Carpmart said:
What’s the BMS doing whilst this overcharging is happening?
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The bms job is NOT to regulate the charge, that’s the chargers job. The bms is the last line of defence, not intended to look after the charging. No ifs no buts.
Any charger with any lead profile with a absorb in excess of 14.4 and excess of two hrs, it will put strain on bms. The bms will go into cell protection over voltage like a yo-yo. Until one day, a tired transistor will pop, then the bms is will not protect the cells, the a cell or more is bound to take overcharge.
The charger profile should be set on the lower edge of the bms safety parameters, it will charge without triggering over-voltage. That’s the normal operating mode for daily cycling. Only very few first cycles may trigger a cell over voltage, that if charger is set high. Within few cycles the battery will balance and work wonderful.
Same goes for alternator charging, skipping a b2b, you are dumping unregulated charge into a lithium.
Each to their own.

As for original tread title, lifepo4 it’s been cheaper than lead for few years now. The way to calculate cost is to take into account total energy round trip for each battery, and cycles. A 100ah quality lead is good for 480 kWh round trip, 800 cycles. A budget lifepo4 100ah is good for bare minimum 2560 kWh round trip, 2000 cycles. A factor of 5.3 times more energy. But lithium can even double that with ease. So how cheap lead has to be to equal lithium? If you pay £400 for a 100ah lithium the lead to be on par it has to be £75 for a 100ah, and lug the weight for the privilege.
If you pay less than £400 for lithium, then the lead has to be even cheaper. The lead is already overpriced, and you receive it with partial sulphation any way.
Last time I bought lead, they were dry and vacuumed, inactivated for shelf life. The importer filled the electrolyte to manufacture recommendation mix 1.28.
I never bought batteries in stock, always something they don’t have so they can order fresh.

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