2021 Adria Matrix Adblue Nightmare and Other Problems Part Two.

[Tio64]

There’s a lot of trepidation re AdBlue. I have to say it’s not hard work. First, and before you set off for journey or en route at earliest point use an AdBlue pump to top up your AdBlue reservoir. Not from 5l or 10l plastic can. This way you can honestly say I’ve filled up to the max as in 100% not 90% or near enough. Fill until dispenser starts clicking (as with fuel). It’s quite common on some vehicles (Sprinters for example) to display a message saying ‘No restart after xxx miles’. And in this example you’d need to top up to 100% to cancel out the warning and the impending ‘No restart’. Just adding a few litres and hoping for the best is no good as the sensor will not reset. So my best advice, take it or leave it, is fill up via pumps, avoid spills and fill up to 100% everytime, not dribs and drabs because you saw a good deal at Asda. Do the job properly otherwise you’ll invite problems.

Mike, all due respect you say it's not hard work but you then make it sound quite like it.
When the warning light comes on in my van (no gauge) I can only put 9 litres in at that time. How hard can it be?

Normally the light only comes on on a continental trip, after @ 1500 miles. I normally put in the 5 litres I carry then go to a pump. The pumps I've used so far (three times, I think) didn't click off they just over spill. I carry an emergency bottle of water for toilet cassette use and I just swill off overspill with that.

Other than this I just fill up at home before each trip using plastic containers.

There shouldn't be any need for any special measures or precautions, as is often said "if it needs instructions it's badly designed."

How can a tank have a sensitive sensor or sender? Motor vehicles have had tanks for 140 years, usually carrying aggressive solvents like petrol or diesel. All that's required is a tank, a float, a sensor (and heating cos adblue freezes), to deliver just one line of fluid to squirt into an exhaust. We're not filling cylinders at several hundred bar 1000s of times a minute here.

Anyway, from the advice I've seen so far on these forums, it seems vital to absolutely fill/don't overfill or you'll have problems.

Also: you say do the job properly, but that'll be in the absence of any useful or meaningful information from the vehicle manufacturer whatsoever, right?

 

[oldiesontour]

Have exactly the same issue with self installed home solar panels,not worth the extra £2k plus for a bit of paper especially when they pay next to nothing for your power

 

[Tio64]

It sounds like many people don’t care about their NOX emissions. I do so I will not be deleting the Adblue system on my new van when I get it, even if it costs me. I thought the MOT changes introduced in 2018 included NOX testing for diesels but if they didn’t it may well happen soon, particularly if deleting Adblue systems catches on. Presumably deletions also show up on the ECU history so a deletion might also affect the warranty. I plan on buying the 5 year Fiat warranty so that gives me another reason to leave the Adblue as it is.

I am not preaching or telling others what they should do, just saying why I plan to leave mine alone.

Thing is though, you don't know you are reducing your Nox emissions. Due to all the deliveries being made on your behalf, they might just well be increasing.

We don't know. We do know that the motor industry is one of the most dishonest set of organisations to grace the planet.

Witness cars running around bearing the logo "Zero Emissions".

 

[tonyidle]

Thing is though, you don't know you are reducing your Nox emissions. Due to all the deliveries being made on your behalf, they might just well be increasing.

We don't know. We do know that the motor industry is one of the most dishonest set of organisations to grace the planet.

Witness cars running around bearing the logo "Zero Emissions".

You're not. Adblue reduces particulates.

 

[oldiesontour]

Having just had the pump unit out of my tank it has a float for level ,a piece of laminated vinyl tape sheet anchored at 1 end and presumably a small heater sandwiched in-between( only guessing it's a heater )a filter and the pump all appear to be submersed in adblue.inserted through the bottom of the tank( mounted to the inside of what is effectively a 8" ISH plug in the bottom of the tank out let and control pack mounted other side..so plug not sealed properly seeps electronics pack constantly bathed in fluid and air.This is the replacement for a tank with everything on top of the tank,wich from photos I've seen looked much more robust

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Tio64]

Anyway folks, I'm pleased to report that we collected the van this morning and we're now on the Dieppe ferry to Newhaven.

No problems so far, but I have noticed my stop start is not working and my idle speed is a bit too high.

The bill was 1,825 euros.

 

[oldiesontour]

Probably down to the delete and re install of adblue from ECU
Glad to hear you're back on the road...should get a MPH more out ot now,with all that weight removed from your wallet !

 

[Pausim]

You're not. Adblue reduces particulates.

Adblue converts nitrogen oxide emissions (NOX) in the exhaust gas of diesel engines, into nitrogen and water.

 

[gus-lopez]

particularly if deleting Adblue systems catches on.

https://theicct.org/publication/dieselgate-emissions-diesel-cars-europe-mar23/

My rig is a 1989 Citroen C-25D. (Fiat/Talbot derivative.)

Doesn't use Adblue as it's a hybrid.

Diesel AND air.

won't be long before it is historic & can wander around london emission zones free of charge & exempt

trucks have been using a version of this that simply plugs into the obd port for years,largely to save the cost of adblue,so much so that vosa are now doing roadside checks.. easily spotted a bulky thing plugged into the obd port.

You move the obd port for the vehicle & hide it behind the dash & fit a dummy one, linked direct to 12volts if you wish, the same as is recommended to do to prevent theft by key cloning & laptop start up.

Hence why idling an engine with DPF is no longer recommended.

& why the problems are so profound here as idling is what they all do along with extremely slow driving to the affect that most gears over 3rd aren't needed.

 

[Littlewheels]

Just checked on EBay and there are any number of OBD Emulators at relatively low cost.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[oldiesontour]

Not that I can find for transits,ducato's,Relays,Boxers.
Perhaps I missed them if so my apologies

 

[BikerGraham]

It sounds like many people don’t care about their NOX emissions. I do so I will not be deleting the Adblue system on my new van when I get it, even if it costs me. I thought the MOT changes introduced in 2018 included NOX testing for diesels but if they didn’t it may well happen soon, particularly if deleting Adblue systems catches on. Presumably deletions also show up on the ECU history so a deletion might also affect the warranty. I plan on buying the 5 year Fiat warranty so that gives me another reason to leave the Adblue as it is.

I am not preaching or telling others what they should do, just saying why I plan to leave mine alone.

Doesn’t matter what warranty you have. If they can’t get the parts. It won’t get fixed.
It then counts down to no restart and you are left with an expensive metal brick. You might be lucky and get a courtesy car.

Not sure what the parts situation is like now but a mate of mine was told there was a 6 month back order last year by his dealer. And they weren’t sure if it would work. May need other parts after that.

I am also aware of another who had the system checked out and nothing g wrong with any parts so conclusion was ECU Software issue. The dealer updated everything. It worked for 2 weeks then went belt up and started counting down. He deleted it as, as he said, I’ve paid £40k plus for a car I can’t use and can’t be fixed. He’d had enough.

It not a simple of not caring about NOX emissions etc. you haven’t had to deal with it so please don’t presume to know why others are making such decisions. It only demonstrates a serious lack of knowledge on your part.

This is a really big problem.

 

[Pausim]

It not a simple of not caring about NOX emissions etc. you haven’t had to deal with it so please don’t presume to know why others are making such decisions. It only demonstrates a serious lack of knowledge on your part.

I just gave my reasons for not wanting to delete an Adblue system. I also very specifically said I was not telling others what they should do. As for a serious lack of knowledge I am always open to learn, hence marking one of your posts as informative.

 

[BikerGraham]

I just gave my reasons for not wanting to delete an Adblue system. I also very specifically said I was not telling others what they should do. As for a serious lack of knowledge I am always open to learn, hence marking one of your posts as informative.

The response was mainly due to your opening sentence which appeared to be making judgement.

Apologies if that is not what you meant by it.

It’s just that the systems are seriously flawed and causing real world problems for many who are unfortunate enough to experience them.

Something needs to be done but the manufacturers don’t seem to care and the MSN and DVSA etc seem to not want to get involved.

A bit like the issue many have with the airbag fault. But on a bigger scale.

 

[pat100]

As a motorhome beginner, who had gone to France, I was a little disconcerted when the adblue light came on but bought some adblu and poured it in. I had read Draconian warnings that if you didn’t obey the adblu light, the van would sulk and refuse to function. 100 miles later, the light was still on and I could see some liquid dripping out under the Boxer. Next day, Friday of course, the RAC sent out a mechanic who said to bring it to the garage on Monday. So I did and they said Ah non, on doit allez au “name of another garage.” Who said the same thing. On my way to the fourth garage there was a road closure where they hadn’t put up the diversion signs yet, so I got lost. Stopped in a lay-by to gather my strength. Looked down and the adblu light was out. Stayed that way for 6 weeks.
All’s well that ends well - I thought when I had run out of expletives.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Sandancers]

Just seen something on a Transit forum regarding ad-blue, obviously not applicable to other makes, but they might have a similar set up, presuming this was a mk8 Transit as earlier Transits didn't have ad-blue.

A guy got, "Ad Blue malfunction, no engine start in 500 miles" so he put 5l in, that did not clear the message, but his level indication went up. He found that if the level had gone low the message will appear and even if you top up the system it might need resetting. So to reset the message he did this;

Turn on ignition for at least 30 seconds, turn off then immediately start the engine. It worked, but obviously would not work if there was an underlying problem.

 

[egan1763]

We had the same problem not just with our van but also with the car. The garage told us that this is a common problem with adblue and in nearly all cases the only way to solve the problem is the tank change. We have decided if we change the van and car we will never get another one that needs adblue as it appears the manufacturers are aware of the issue but aren’t looking at solving it

 

[Sandancers]

Just been watching one of Jimmy O'Leary's videos. He is a bit of an expert in DPF cleaning and he was scathing about the newest vehicles which have soot detectors after the DPF apparently they can throw repeated DPF faults and the only solution is a new DPF. Whereas the older DPF types without soot detectors don't give that bother.

It would seem the whole "environmental" progress made in vehicles is based on unreliable kit.

 

[ceejayt]

Our Iveco base motorhome has adblue system. We have done 30000 miles and no problems ~ 20 litre tank and uses most of that in 1500 mikes
I have noticed a recent change though. Our dash has a continuous display of adblue percentage full and a flashing warning light when it gets down to 20%.
I always fill by pump (much easier). Previously after filling it would immediately show 100% on the dash. Recently after filling the percentage rises slowly over perhaps 15 to 20 minutes of driving eventually getting back to 100%.
Hopefully not a precursor to a problem

 

[dunnah01]

Our Iveco base motorhome has adblue system. We have done 30000 miles and no problems ~ 20 litre tank and uses most of that in 1500 mikes

75 miles/litre sounds very high or is this normal?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[ceejayt]

75 miles/litre sounds very high or is this normal?

No idea but it has always been so. Probably a little better than that as I rarely let it go below 20% so that would make it maybe 90 miles per litre

 

[ceejayt]

Just glad I don’t seem to have the problems others clearly have

 

[Pausim]

75 miles/litre sounds very high or is this normal?

I think it depends on how much diesel you burn. Big engine in heavy motorhome will use more fuel and more Adblue than smaller engine in lighter weight van. Driving style and terrain probably also come into it, just like mpg.

 

[oldiesontour]

It seems even taking weight size and right foot into account figures differ massively

 

[Tio64]

A small update: we've confirmed the adblue injector on a Fiat Ducato, of 2.3 litre 160bhp at least, is in real terms completely inaccessible. (It'd be engine out or exhaust inc dpf off).

So should it turn out that adblue injector cleaning becomes a regular job or a service item, we're screwed.

Which reinforces my opinion that Fiat Ducatos are bloody badly designed vehicles.

ETA: one good bit of news is my stop-start system is working again, and idle speed seems ok (or I've got used to it).

It kinda reassures me my ECU is ok post-adblue delete attempt.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[joner8888]

A small update: we've confirmed the adblue injector on a Fiat Ducato, of 2.3 litre 160bhp at least, is in real terms completely inaccessible. (It'd be engine out or exhaust inc dpf off).

So should it turn out that adblue injector cleaning becomes a regular job or a service item, we're screwed.

Which reinforces my opinion that Fiat Ducatos are bloody badly designed vehicles.

ETA: one good bit of news is my stop-start system is working again, and idle speed seems ok (or I've got used to it).

It kinda reassures me my ECU is ok post-adblue delete attempt.

Yes, it`s not the motorhome manufacture fault , it`s the chassis they buy in to build on , Fiat is the problem here , not the builder.

 

[kevinbolton260362]

The engine light does come on although later in the journey than previously. In the ferry queue at Dover I try my new dongle for the first time and am impressed with it and the app. I get 3 fault codes, one relating to an Eco Button light signal failure - I'm not aware of any such failure - and two codes in the Adblue Dosing unit, P203B00 & P206A00. No explanations are given for these and searching Google gets no results. I find my Dongle and app can clear the codes and cancel the engine light.

We continue to Spain and have a nice time. The engine light comes on on long journeys but not on shorter ones. I cancel the engine light about 6 times in all, always exactly the same codes.

On the journey back home through France after three weeks or so away, the adblue warning light comes on, at about the expected time for a refill and luckily about 20 miles before our overnight aire where I had planned to stop. But very soon after the refill warning I get a message I haven't seen before, stating I must fill within 205 miles, that swiftly changes to another message informing the vehicle will not restart once switched off, then yet another message saying I must put in 1.1 gal and wait for warning to clear before restarting.

I get to the aire and park myself up but do not switch off. With engine running I put in the 5 litres of adblue I carry, wait for message to clear but it doesn't. I switch off, turn ignition back on, message remains, I wait some minutes to see if it clears, it doesn't. I attempt to start the engine - it doesn't. We are stuffed.

We call the breakdown service we have with Comfort insurance, which results in a mechanic turning up quite quickly. He can't get message to clear, I'm able to show him my empty container that shows 5 litres/1.1 gallons has been put in, he arranges for vehicle to be recovered.

That takes the whole of the next day, during which time I trudge in the rain to a nearby supermarket to buy another 5 litres. The van only takes 4 of them before overflowing, which shows it's taken 9 litres of a 18 litre capacity. I also trudge in the rain to the local garage, and with the help of Google Translate ask them if they'd send a guy round with diagnostic kit to see what they can achieve. A mechanic zooms round in a car and he has a good go, but has no success. I appreciate their kindness and they're happy with 20 euros. They were very good.

About 5 pm a breakdown vehicle turns up driven by a mere slip of girl of about 20. She expertly straps our moho front wheels onto her vehicle and drives the whole rig to the workshop some distance away. Her driving was absolutely spot on, she stopped half way to check the straps, at the garage she reverses the rig in in one go to where she places our motorhome, she spoke some English, that young woman has received excellent training and she was naturally smiley and helpful anyway, it was nice to see in one so young. The workshop manager had agreed to stay behind after closing time to wait for us.

I can't reveal where we were or the name of the business because the workshop manager went out on a limb to help us, in a manner that could jeopardise his job. Suffice to say, the van was at exactly the right business and premises.

Workshop manager promises they'll get started on us the following afternoon. When he does so the upshot is they can't clear the light, it's probably a problem with the level measurement inside the tank, requiring a new tank at a cost of 1200 euros but it will take a week to get one.

An alternative he says, is there's a business nearby who could carry out Adblue Delete. He'd remove the engine ECU from the vehicle, take it and me to the business, he doesn't want any payment himself for doing so because it's something he's not supposed to do in his position. Quote for the job is 350 euros, no payment up front, I only pay if it's successful.

End of work the manager removes the ECU and we go off in his van. The ECU is handed over, we have a chat, the ECU guy will deliver it back the following day, workshop manager will fit it in his lunch break (they have a 2 hour lunch break!). I Google the business, it seems legit, he has a website and a presence on social media, he has good reviews, the price he quoted me is the price he quotes on his website.

All goes to plan, the ECU is returned, the manager refits as promised, the ignition is switched on - the error message is still there and the vehicle won't start. Phone calls ensue, they decide to repeat the process that afternoon.

We decide we've had enough, we decamp to a hotel a 5 minute walk away, with a good restaurant opposite.

That evening my tracker app shows the ignition being turned on and off. I get a phone call, there's been no success, can I go and see him 8am next morning?

Overnight I'm on the phone to my pal Mark, he advises all the things they could try, such as instructing the engine ECU that the instrument cluster has been replaced, etc etc. For brevity, I won't go through all that was advised, but workshop manager says they have already tried everything Mark suggests. I have to say, the workshop manager was very good, he spoke some English, we both made full use of Google Translate on our phones, he remained calm and professional at all times, he had given us lots of time in what is a large, busy place, I feel he'd made a genuine effort to help us.

So it's back to square one and replace the tank at considerable cost and we have to wait for one to arrive, about 5 days not including the weekend. We have moved to a small apartment in a nearby city because I cannot face hotel food for a week, not even Best Western. We could have the van repatriated but I've been put off by stories of this taking weeks, we have our ebikes and a month's amount of stuff with us.

So there we are. We have to put up with a simply tremendous amount of inconvenience because of a failure of emissions equipment.

I've been having a read about adblue, naturally. It is supposed to reduce emissions, however: Apparently 220 million tons of this stuff is produced ANNUALLY and then shipped around the world. Shipping is the dirtiest transport of all. Adblue uses urea, which also goes into fertiliser, and the demand for both has contributed to the price of fertiliser rising which in turn has contributed to the cost of food rising.

Adblue is sold by the pump at filling station forecourts but is also sold widely in plastic containers. I don't have adblue available at a filling station near me at home so I've been buying it in plastic containers myself, it's actually cheaper to do so. Of the 220 million tonnes of adblue sold annually, how many millions of plastic containers are produced? I mentioned the Wynn's additive for adblue, naturally that is also sold in small plastic bottles.

I think these emission reduction systems are a cheat, just as cars detecting that they're on test are a cheat. Emission reduction systems such as adblue, stop-start systems and diesel particulate filters and so on are all gaming the system, to reduce tail pipe emissions but at the cost of globally shipping hundreds of millions of tons of fluid and equipment, overwhelmingly delivered by diesel truck or van, which must result in a net increase in emissions and pollutants.

As soon as we return to the UK I will be having Adblue Delete carried out on our van and I'd strongly advise others to do likewise. I'm told it's undetectable and is reversible, and I don't think there's any moral or ethical problem with this whatsoever, because these systems are a cheat.

I think it's outrageous the inconvenience and cost we've been put to. We'll be stranded for about 10 days, if we were anywhere near our 90 day limit we would have had to fly home then travel back again to collect the van. These emissions reduction systems are unreliable and I think it takes only one delivery by a diesel-engined vehicle, or one recovery by a diesel engined truck as we have had, to more than wipe out a vehicle's emissions reduction over the lifetime of same.

Stop start systems - the reductions in fuel and emissions must be tiny, but imagine if a new starter motor has to be delivered and replaced because it has failed prematurely? As I say, this is cheating. It is in the manufacturers interests to reduce CO2 figures for various reasons, and even savings of grams can result in a vehicle being placed in a lower tax band - no matter what the consequences to owners in terms of breakdowns or to the environment with diesel-engined vehicle deliveries.

And where is the safety, in a vehicle that won't start because computer says no? What about females travelling on their own? What if the vehicle isn't in a safe place?

I am not saying all this out of sour grapes, or being yet another old man railing against the world, I am being sincere when I say I do NOT believe these systems are reducing emissions, I think common knowledge tells us this.

Thanks for reading, hope this all provides thought, fingers crossed we get our van back in 2-3 days time and that our breakdown insurance covers our costs and accommodation, and yes I'll be submitting a goodwill claim to Fiat.

Thanks for taking the time to write this and I am very sorry to hear your story. This does, however fill me with concern. We are due to pick up a new Rapido motorhome in July which does use ad blue. Our 8 year old Rapido motorhome didn’t use ad blue but we have a Mercedes that does use it although we have had no problems with it so far. I have read similar threads on this forum to yours and I’m wondering whether we should cancel the order!

 

[joner8888]

A small update: we've confirmed the adblue injector on a Fiat Ducato, of 2.3 litre 160bhp at least, is in real terms completely inaccessible. (It'd be engine out or exhaust inc dpf off).

So should it turn out that adblue injector cleaning becomes a regular job or a service item, we're screwed.

Which reinforces my opinion that Fiat Ducatos are bloody badly designed vehicles.

ETA: one good bit of news is my stop-start system is working again, and idle speed seems ok (or I've got used to it).

It kinda reassures me my ECU is ok post-adblue delete attempt.

I am looking at second hand motorhomes at the moment, what year did they start using ad blue to the engines...

 

[oldiesontour]

Are you sure the adblue injector is a problem mine is a2020 and injector and nox sensor are fairly easy to remove ,mine is pvc

 

[martin2603]

Euro 6d post 2018 wopuld appear to be Adblue . Mine is 2017 euro 6 non adblu for which I am very grateful!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}