Supermarket diesel Good Or Bad? (1 Viewer)

[Janine]

So if you spend 10% more for your fuel you get 10% more mpg

 

[DuxDeluxe]

i have worked in the petrolium industry fo 35 years and can confirm that supermarket diesel is crap,yes it meets all the standards but only at the lower or minimum standard.

.......which is exactly the standard that the engine is designed for.

If supermarket fuel is such crap then why:

a) aren't there broken down vehicles littering the sides of the roads due to filling up with supermarket diesel
b) why aren't trading standards crawling all over them for selling inferior products?
c) why aren't the supermarkets being sued for damages etc?
d) why are millions of motorists both here and the rest of Europe perfectly happy with many tens of thousands of miles burning (your words) crap??

We already know the answer. I had a whole sub business testing and advising on fuel quality to clients...............

 

[DuxDeluxe]

So if you spend 10% more for your fuel you get 10% more mpg

In fact some people when using the so called "super fuels" do in fact achieve better fuel consumption and in a lot of cases it is economic to use a super fuel and the extra costs equate to the improved consumption

 

[PhilG]

Only ever used best you could buy then Tesco started doing a high octane unleaded so tried it bike felt ok but lap times were down, came in after the last race & 3 of us got pulled for weight check & fuel test, fuel tester came out to me & said we had all past, but enquired where I got my fuel! because its shit he said worst of the whole weekend, funnily we never used it again.

Do you not have to run the control fuel ?

 

[FIDGET]

Nope - it is exactly the same and the components could even be from the same refinery

I was a Petroleum depot supervisor for 22 years for Esso, We supplied 16 petrol stations & 1 Tesco outlet. We supplied exactly the same fuel + additive (Petrol / Diesel ) to all of them , having said that when Esso decided to pull it's operation off the island , Esso agreed a joint decision with BP on the island to allowing BP to bunker there supply from Esso's refinery @ Fawley & allowing my driving staff had to load out of the local BP depot along with the another local rival Texaco . The only difference to the fuel was each company would add there particular brand of additive at the time of filling there tankers.
With my Esso employee head on , it makes a difference !!!,
but I'm not convinced in real life.
Must say I have always used the cheapest (mostly various supermarkets) never had a problem.

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[PhilG]

.......which is exactly the standard that the engine is designed for.

If supermarket fuel is such crap then why:

a) aren't there broken down vehicles littering the sides of the roads due to filling up with supermarket diesel
b) why aren't trading standards crawling all over them for selling inferior products?
c) why aren't the supermarkets being sued for damages etc?
d) why are millions of motorists both here and the rest of Europe perfectly happy with many tens of thousands of miles burning (your words) crap??

We already know the answer. I had a whole sub business testing and advising on fuel quality to clients...............

Shell were taken to court by a collective of fleets when they introduced Formula Shell... all held Shell fuel cards and suffered premature valve wear... they paid out millions

 

[2657]

I would have thought the condition of the tanks both in your motorhome and in the supplying garage, regardless of whether supermarket or not, would have more relevance to the build up of sludge in a filter.

As @vwalan says bacterial growth in diesel tanks is another problem.

http://fuelandfriction.com/trucking-pro/microbial-growth-in-fuel-prevent/

 

[Enword]

Do you not have to run the control fuel ?

Up until 2012 it was open then we had to grease someone's palm & use control fuel.

 

[Charlie]

Fuel may reach a specific requirement but that requirement is low .

The additives keep things cleaner and in diesel up the cetane rating over cheaper fuel . Modern DPF filters are better when quality fuel is used.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Shell were taken to court by a collective of fleets when they introduced Formula Shell... all held Shell fuel cards and suffered premature valve wear... they paid out millions

Yes, many, many years ago and it was because the fuel had a much lower sulphur level than other fuels, at a time when it was not fully appreciated just what a good lubricant sulphur actually is......... all fuels since then have had minimum lubricity requirements as tested on the HFRR rig. As I recall, Vauxhall engines suffered most. Things have moved on since then and it could be said that the removal of lead additives, then MTBE, plus this later incident spurred on both the fuel companies and the engine manufacturers to reasearch real world fuels as well as spec fuels, actually getting retail pump samples for testing and evaluation. The Japs of course, have been doing this for years

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[bigguspeckus]

Dun ear in Narfuk Borr wees mix'da fuill wiv cow pizz,,, firkun trrakturs go liek shite orf'un a hart shuval,! Wees keep'a tryun ta fund a ways ta gert the cow farts'unarwl int'a thar fuill,,, chreest Borr, wees'll bee furkin flyun'en!!!!

 

[Lorryman100]

I run both the MoHo and the LR on premium diesels, why because I know whats good for my engines. Now lets put a cat amongst the pigeons.....anyone add 2 stroke oil to their fuel tanks??

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I was a Petroleum depot supervisor for 22 years for Esso, We supplied 16 petrol stations & 1 Tesco outlet. We supplied exactly the same fuel + additive (Petrol / Diesel ) to all of them , having said that when Esso decided to pull it's operation off the island , Esso agreed a joint decision with BP on the island to allowing BP to bunker there supply from Esso's refinery @ Fawley & allowing my driving staff had to load out of the local BP depot along with the another local rival Texaco . The only difference to the fuel was each company would add there particular brand of additive at the time of filling there tankers.
With my Esso employee head on , it makes a difference !!!,
but I'm not convinced in real life.
Must say I have always used the cheapest (mostly various supermarkets) never had a problem.

Yep, if you look at Vopak terminal on the Thames, or the Esso terminal next door you will see all sorts of tankers hauling exactly the same stuff under different brands, the only difference being perhaps a couple of parts per million of additive usually put in primarily for marketing purposes.

It makes me laugh when I see the adverts "use xxxx fuel, you will get up to 20 miles per tank" with an asterisk with all the disclaimers in small letters at the bottom. That improvement is statistically insignificant in a tank with 6-700 miles range.

Just for the record, safe in the certain knowledge that my motorhome is designed to be thrashed to death by a plumber in a hurry for 200,000 miles and that Fiat spend many millions and millions on researching fuels and fuel impact, I continue to fill up wherever is convenient. It won't make any difference. The Jaaag however is both high performance and remapped with a modified exhaust always drinks Shell VPower.. but only because it is remapped a long way from standard.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I would have thought the condition of the tanks both in your motorhome and in the supplying garage, regardless of whether supermarket or not, would have more relevance to the build up of sludge in a filter.

As @vwalan says bacterial growth in diesel tanks is another problem.

http://fuelandfriction.com/trucking-pro/microbial-growth-in-fuel-prevent/

As an aside, if anyone suspects bugs in their fuel, send me a PM - I do have some bug detection kits left over from work.........

 

[vwalan]

I run both the MoHo and the LR on premium diesels, why because I know whats good for my engines. Now lets put a cat amongst the pigeons.....anyone add 2 stroke oil to their fuel tanks??

have a read here,Broken Link Removed
seems it might be a waste of oil.

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[Lorryman100]

Bio slime is a real issue with modern day diesel engines that can be easily kept at bay by either using the odd tank of premium fuel or an aftermarket additive like Forte every 6 months or a dose of Millers diesel additive at each tankful. The Forte additive is the equivalent of an industrial cleaner and adding this to a tank and running it prior to an MOT test has proven to lower the vehicle emissions.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Supermarket fuel is cheap for a reason .

The biggest reason is it is invariably used as a loss leader to encourage people to spend money in the shop and the second biggest is higher volumes enabling lower margins. The actual cost of the fuel is probably within decimals of percent since they are essentially the same brew give or take some low numbers parts per million of some different additives. Distribution costs will be competitive with larger franchise sites but much lower than the independent fuel stations.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Bio slime is a real issue with modern day diesel engines that can be easily kept at bay by either using the odd tank of premium fuel or an aftermarket additive like Forte every 6 months or a dose of Millers diesel additive at each tankful. The Forte additive is the equivalent of an industrial cleaner and adding this to a tank and running it prior to an MOT test has proven to lower the vehicle emissions.

Forte works very well as a cleaner. I'm not so sure about effectiveness of any of the above in bug removal though. The anaerobic bacteria live in the moisture layer at the bottom and are hard to easily remove once you have them

 

[Lorryman100]

Wow not even 10 minutes and I got a bite The whole 2 stroke oil debate came about after the introduction of low sulphur fuels as the sulphur was the main lubricant for the fuel systems high pressure pump and injectors. People were convinced whether right or wrong that adding the 2 SO would and did help with the lubrication of the high pressure side of the engine fuelling in the early days as the fuel did not contain any lubricating additives.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Wow not even 10 minutes and I got a bite The whole 2 stroke oil debate came about after the introduction of low sulphur fuels as the sulphur was the main lubricant for the fuel systems high pressure pump and injectors. People were convinced whether right or wrong that adding the 2 SO would and did help with the lubrication of the high pressure side of the engine fuelling in the early days as the fuel did not contain any lubricating additives.

You are correct there, and as the sulphur levels came down, other lubricants were added. The whole 2T business is a legacy from those days

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[Lorryman100]

Forte works very well as a cleaner. I'm not so sure about effectiveness of any of the above in bug removal though. The anaerobic bacteria live in the moisture layer at the bottom and are hard to easily remove once you have them

There have been major issues with the Landrover Defender Puma and Bio slime contamination which has brought many a member on Defender forums running issues that the dealers were blaming on faulty Volume Control Valves which did not register a DTC so this was the first expensive part they replaced and charged the owners accordingly. I have been involved in the fault finding process which eventually led to the bio slime problem being identified as the main cause of engine running issues as the slime would start of by blocking the fuel ports in the filter housing to eventually making its way into the low pressure side of the fuel pump. After thorough cleaning of the tank using an industrial product and replacement of the filter housing and fuel lines to the pump, the combination of using premium fuels combined with Millers or Forte additives have to this date ( about 3 years on about 13 vehicles) not resulted in re contamination of the fuel tank by Bio slime. JMTW

 

[vwalan]

Forte works very well as a cleaner. I'm not so sure about effectiveness of any of the above in bug removal though. The anaerobic bacteria live in the moisture layer at the bottom and are hard to easily remove once you have them

years ago as i said earlier i was told add a gallon of petrol to a tank of diesel every now and again . i was told the lead in the petrol killed the bacteria living in diesel. when lead was almost or was took out i changed my garage place and shared a yard with a mate that repaired trucks . ford cargo had heaps of trouble . the black slime was incredible . we found that our local esso depot could sell us additive to kill it off .
i really only got involved for interest . but tanks were being cleaned and filled with clean diesel and this additive used for ages . esso moved and we lost the connection . but for me soltron works . i do find fuel abroad picked up in forecourts near the sea can cause trouble . mine hopefully stays ok . but a few friends have had trouble . i now carry a few either the sparex or the fuel set bottles incase others need it .
try a ebay for fuel set.
mind i dare say if working in the fuel industry some will have a supply of something . hee hee .

 

[PhilG]

I run both the MoHo and the LR on premium diesels, why because I know whats good for my engines. Now lets put a cat amongst the pigeons.....anyone add 2 stroke oil to their fuel tanks??

all the time, 40:1

 

[Lorryman100]

40:1, does that work out at about 250ml on a full tank? I used 250ml per 70 litres for years before moving over to Millers fuel additive.

Broken Link Removed

 

[DuxDeluxe]

years ago as i said earlier i was told add a gallon of petrol to a tank of diesel every now and again . i was told the lead in the petrol killed the bacteria living in diesel. when lead was almost or was took out i changed my garage place and shared a yard with a mate that repaired trucks . ford cargo had heaps of trouble . the black slime was incredible . we found that our local esso depot could sell us additive to kill it off .
i really only got involved for interest . but tanks were being cleaned and filled with clean diesel and this additive used for ages . esso moved and we lost the connection . but for me soltron works . i do find fuel abroad picked up in forecourts near the sea can cause trouble . mine hopefully stays ok . but a few friends have had trouble . i now carry a few either the sparex or the fuel set bottles incase others need it .
try a ebay for fuel set.
mind i dare say if working in the fuel industry some will have a supply of something . hee hee .

There are a few biocides out there. Some work better than others; as far as I know, it depends on the type of bug as to which biocide is the most effective. Think of it a bit like how antibiotics work on humans.

Worst case I dealt with was a batch of bad fuel and 5 ships, each with about 3500 tonnes of the bad stuff on board. Debunkering cleaning and loading uncontaminated fuel. It cost tens of millions. Easiest one was a friend with a horse box - off with the fuel tank, hot detergent in, jetwash out, dry, clean out with a solvent. Refit. Sledgehammer to crack a nut but it worked

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[buttons]

Can't be bothered to explain (yet again) the chemistry and science behind all this, but having worked in the petroleum industry all my life, with 30 odd years dealing with fuel problems and specifically fuel quality, there is almost more garbage written about this subject of A Frames or gassing, nearly all of it written from a point of lack of knowledge

What does this say for Portlands Friend of many years who is the manager of a garage that has 100's of vehicles on contract hire and a big user of Ducato's and his answer coupled with that of head mechanic is supermarket Diesel evidently it lacks the additives to clean the system.....

 

[DuxDeluxe]

What does this say for Portlands Friend of many years who is the manager of a garage that has 100's of vehicles on contract hire and a big user of Ducato's and his answer coupled with that of head mechanic is supermarket Diesel evidently it lacks the additives to clean the system.....

So.....?

It is an answer of sorts......... I know the science as do many technical experts on fuel additives and fuel quality. Given the choice between a fleet manager and head mechanic or someone who knows the detail of the fuels you can make your own mind up. I'm sticking with what I said above

 

[PhilG]

40:1, does that work out at about 250ml on a full tank? I used 250ml per 70 litres for years before moving over to Millers fuel additive.

Broken Link Removed

no . its 125cc to 5 litres... it is actually a 2 stroke LOL

 

[DuxDeluxe]

This was at BSB so they had tested hundred's of samples,

Just wondering what equipment they used to test the fuel. A proper test involved preparation and the use of a substantial bit of kit such as an ICP or HPGLC, neither of which are terribly portable. Simpler method is to use indicative detection using the infra red spectrum (technique name evades me at the moment). It is quick but does only give an indication...... essentially it takes a fingerprint and compares with the reference fuel and a margin either side.

The testing company I think is Intertek - my previous employers got out of the race testing business altogether as the FIM/FIA pretty well wanted it done for nothing and we saw very little advertising/publicity gain for all the hassle and grief we would get. Only if a fuel fails the fingerprint is it properly tested in a lab.

 

[buttons]

So.....?

It is an answer of sorts......... I know the science as do many technical experts on fuel additives and fuel quality. Given the choice between a fleet manager and head mechanic or someone who knows the detail of the fuels you can make your own mind up. I'm sticking with what I said above

I am pro you today DD I thought my smilies showed that........ I never used anything else for as long as I remember.

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