jhorsf
Free Member
HHUUUU HUMMMMMM
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_TiCKHSAQ[/ame]
wonder if you can a frame it?
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As I see it an awful lot of people use A frames in the UK without any problems.
Clearly the police don't seem to have an issue with them.
If they are technically illegal then the technicality is clearly lost on traffic cops.
Does anyone know of anyone being prosecuted in the UK for using an A frame?
If the law cant cope with new technology then there will be no progress
therefore it should be changed. The brandy thing though a good idea
doesnt fall into new technology.
When they invent cars that fly............will they still have to stop at traffic lights on the ground ? Things change .
barry
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If the law cant cope with new technology then there will be no progress
therefore it should be changed. The brandy thing though a good idea
doesnt fall into new technology.
I go back to what I have already said..........do toads work ? can they be made safe..are they better?
Lets face it positioning 4 wheels on top of another 4 wheels then towing it
is hardly progress...its 4 wheels too many !!
When they invent cars that fly............will they still have to stop at traffic lights on the ground ? Things change .
barry
What's the differance between the brakes on an A frame or a trailer?
THE LEGALS!
For those who like the idea of towing a car behind a motorhome - the good news continues.
For those who've always been against it - the continuing good news is probably not so good.
Over the years there has been a great deal of rumour and misunderstanding concerning the legality of towing frames.
As the proprietor of CAR-A-TOW and designer of the Car-A-Tow Towing Frame System, I, along with stalwart motorhomer Terry Nash of W. Sussex, (I actually think that Terrier Nash would be more appropriate), managed to bring the controversy to a satisfactory conclusion a few years ago now.
He (Terry) had eloquently badgered every government department associated with motor vehicles and trailers, to finally get them to give us some definitive answers back in Jan/Feb 2004.
The Department for Transport stated :
" When an A frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. a motorhome) we believe the A frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer "
" We believe the use of A frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met".
At that time, The D f T expressed concern about a car's braking performance without its engine running.
" if the braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required during towing to meet the required braking efficiency"
At CAR-A-TOW, we are only concerned with small cars, suitable for towing behind a motorhome, generally up to around 800/1100kg kerb weight, and fitted with servo assisted brakes, (vacuum assistance).
CAR-A-TOW carried out braking performance tests on a broad range of modern small cars, he results have proven conclusively these cars not only meet the required performance for trailers - 50% braking force in relation to its maximum weight - but in most cases far exceed this requirement, without any vacuum assistance from a servo.
An important point to consider:
On a small car, a Vacuum Servo does not increase braking effect at the wheels, it is designed to make the brake pedal easier to push for all shapes and sizes of driver - less effort to achieve the required performance. A 6ft 6inch weightlifter would have no problem operating the brake pedal on a Ford Fiesta without the assistance of a vacuum servo.
Trailer overrun braking (inertia brakes), as fitted to the CAR-A-TOW system, relies upon the momentum of the weight of the trailer to exert force on the overrun coupling to activate the simple lever to pull on the brake cable to operate the trailer's brakes.
If the motorhome brakes gently the trailer brakes are hardly required, if the motorhome brakes hard the weight of the car/trailer exerts it's force on the overrun and brakes hard - proportional braking without the vacuum servo assistance.
A further point raised by The D f T ; the ability of the motorhome/car combination to be reversed without operating a manual mechanism.
Contrary to common belief, the regulations do not state that braked trailers must be fitted specifically with " auto reverse brakes ".
The D f T remind us :
" From 1st October 1988 the inertia braking system (overrun) is required to allow the trailer to be reversed with the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically "
Although we understand the meaning, the regulation does not state specifically 'auto reverse brakes', as commonly fitted to modern trailers and caravans, but requires a system to enable a trailer to be reversed without the need to manually operate a mechanism.
There are specific regulations concerning this requirement and the Car-A-Tow frame system can meet the requirements as stated in UN-ECE Regulation No. 13, Annexe 12, Page 137, Paragraph 3:4 and 3:5, providing the system is fitted and operated correctly and is in good condition.
The D f T state :
" Where technical requirements are mandated then the burden falls to manufacturers to ensure products meet the requirements "
We are happy that the Car-A-Tow system does comply and does meet the requirements as stated, this has been demonstrated to various experts and can be repeated as often as required.
Yet another misunderstanding is that 'trailers' may not be fitted with hydraulic brakes, the correct regulation is that trailers may not use a hydraulic parking brake. Cars are fitted with a mechanical parking brake (handbrake) and providing this handbrake lever can be operated from the ground, i.e. with feet on the ground, this handbrake conforms to trailer requirements and is completely legal.
The D f T have also stated :
" The trailer would not have to be tested to establish that it did meet the requirements - no test facilities are available" !!!!!
The D f T has reminded us continually over the years that they do not have the final say. Whilst they have now stated their belief that A frame towing is legal (after years of suggesting it was illegal), they also remind us:
" it is for the courts to make definitive interpretations of the law"
We are not aware of a court expressing a view either way. The main point here, in relation to towing a car behind a motorhome, is that we now have a statement from the D f T that they believe a car on a towing frame is in legislation etc etc a trailer providing it conforms to all other regulations relating to trailers.
If a British court was forced to question the basic principle of whether or not a car is considered to be a trailer, when connected to a towing vehicle with a towing frame, it is our understanding that a court would look to the relevant government department - The Department for Transport - for guidance and opinion, that department has already stated they believe it is classified in legislation as a trailer and it is legal.
We rest our case !!
So……. After all those years of batting this backwards and forwards with the D f T (formerly The D of T), where does this leave us ?
The D f T have confirmed they now believe that towing a car with an A frame is legal provided etc etc
We have proof that we can meet trailer braking requirements and performance although
The D f T have stated that testing is not required and
The D f T have stated that no test facility is available anyway
We have a conforming parking brake
We have a conforming breakaway system (for cars below 1500kg)
The lighting conforms
We carry the registration plate of the towing vehicle (covering the rear plate of the car)
That's it then, can we now stop all the nonsense both spoken and printed, about the so called 'A frame debate', hook your car on the back and just enjoy your holidays !
Alan Bee
CAR-A-TOW
[HI]
Anyone who wishes to challenge any points made here, is invited and welcome to contact TOWCentre Ltd with details of which aspect of A frame towing they consider is not legal.[/HI]
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Please don't shoot the messenger, I've only copy pasted..... Perhaps someone would like to challenge this statement by CarATow ? (see my highlight foot of document)
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Please don't shoot the messenger, I've only copy pasted..... Perhaps someone would like to challenge this statement by CarATow ? (see my highlight foot of document)
Link Removed
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I think there is a clear case of Duty of Care requirement. Any maker would need to be able to prove that there product is legal .. if they cannot then they do so at there peril..as in costs and damages. Product law will very likely cover this issue.
If thinking of buying one.. just ask for them to show you how it is reversed and turned at the same time... It will be interesting to see them demonstrate it.. I do mean as from when the motorhome or RV comes to a stop and is immediately reversed..
Anyway I have had my say many times on this subject, I know the law, I made my choice and went for the more expensive route of a full blown 4 wheel brakes trailer to carry my car... I do not worry about France, Spain or anywhere else as I am legal.. simples.
Love the idea of Harry re the smart pushing the motorhome...... only snag is that for the modern Smart you cannot get a street legal tow ball (talking about towing with the smart here) but I doubt it could have one fitted at the front either.. but a great idea.. like it.
Bob:thumb:
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Firstly we do not know the number of people that use A frames illegally (that is what they are doing)... Police could deal with the matter, but I suspect it will be a VOSA road side check that will collar someone.. Recently VOSA crushed two American Limo due to breaches in the law... Look on VOSA site clear as day.. It is only a matter of time as I have said before someone in the UK will be prosecuted. It is illegal in a lot of European countries like Spain which has laws relating to A frames.
There is no Technically about it.. it is within the RTA 1968 and the Construction and Use regulations which is law as an SI (Statutory Instrument).
Why do you need to know if someone has be prosecuted? if it is the law then it is the law.. do you ignore red traffic lights? it is the law you stop at them.. do you question that issue?
Bob
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had one of them Alan.....but you couldnt swing a cat !!!!hi pappa you could sell the rv and get a suitable vehicle to allow you totow. or get a fiver you know it makes sense .hee hee
all the best alan.
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I presume you use your brakes Barry? The reason why the old Department for Transport (now VOSA).. had these SI in the first place was to define what was a trailer .. correct 4 wheels on the road.. all with brakes if over the unbrakes weight of 750 Kgs... So to save having a lw for every twist and turn the SI covered vehicles that were towed. As some toads only have rear wheel brakeing on a cable it would have less brake power than those on a trailer with 4 brakes wheels.. So unless the makers of toads.. and it is them you should be complaining to make a proper bit of equipment.. the law stands. The toad is not legal as it is classed as a trailer and does not meet the regulations.. construction and use. Simples... get the toads sorted and then they will be proper trailers. or what do you think we should call them??? toads???? just can see that in legislation .. but as the law does not change as you might like Barry.. you either have to adapt or face the possibility one day of the yellow jacket waving you in to a lay by and doing a full inspection.. not just a fine.. the American Limos were ceased and then crushed under the powers VOSA have.
Sobering thought that your toad might get crushed.. oh yes so could the motorhome as it is all running under one registration number.. no one has thought about that.
Bob:Blush:
all this has no impact on me whatsoever....
running at 7500kg and having a C1E licence i have 4 choices.
1...ignore the law
2...dont tow (current option :Sad
3 ...motorbike and trailer
4...find a car/trailer combi under 750kg (yeah right, flying officer oink !)
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hi dave . c1+e restricted code 107 is 8,250kg. trainweight. better geta fiver. you can then have a 3,500kg unit and pull much more .no weight limmit just the train of the tow unit on a b+e licence.
could be 12 tonnes with the right unit.
unfortunately Dave it dont work like that.....Hi Al, So with a 7.5 ton RV your looking at a trailer and car with a combined weight of 750kgs to be legal eh.
What sort of trailer and car are you going to get thats under 750kgs. A half decent braked trailer is going to weigh 500 kgs, that leaves 250 kgs for a car.
Now my old panda weighed under 750kgs including the Aframe so who would VOSA be more interested in if pulled into a spot check....an overloaded RV towing an overloaded trailer or me and my Panda not braking any laws at this moment in time.
I think I will take my chances.
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Hi Al, So with a 7.5 ton RV your looking at a trailer and car with a combined weight of 750kgs to be legal eh.
What sort of trailer and car are you going to get thats under 750kgs. A half decent braked trailer is going to weigh 500 kgs, that leaves 250 kgs for a car.
Now my old panda weighed under 750kgs including the Aframe so who would VOSA be more interested in if pulled into a spot check....an overloaded RV towing an overloaded trailer or me and my Panda not braking any laws at this moment in time.
I think I will take my chances.
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