'TOADs'...'A' frames Proposed New Regulations ?! (1 Viewer)

slobadoberbob

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Hard work Alan

but most aframes in use in the uk ARE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THE BRAKES ARENT AUTO REVERSE.
THATS WHAT MAKESTHEM ILLEGAL. unless used for recovery work. there are systems that do cover the braking requirements of trailers.


You can take a horse to water.. but you cannot make him drink.

As I said Larry and others have this mind set if it does not say it is illegal then it is not.. WRONG.. the construction and use regs make it clear that a towed car is a trailer and that has to comply with the construction and use regs.. which they do not as the auro reversing will not work... it is a brake issue that the toad towing equipment has not overcome. It is not LEGAL to tow a toad unless you have the brake issue sorted and I suspect few if any have sorted it.

My wife said last night.. why do you bother? Yes I agree why do I bother.. soon or later there will be a proscecution and then you will start moaning that you were not warned

Bob:cry:
 

slobadoberbob

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Of course we could ask VOSA

As I understand it our legal system is such that something is legal unless there is a law that makes it illegal.

Again, as I understand it the law here is based a lot on precedent. So once a court case decides that something is illegal based on the active legislation, then court cases that follow cite the first case as a precedent - it was illegal then, therefore it is now, sort of thing.

So, unless there has been a case before the courts you can interpret the rules, regs and legislation however you want. It is not illegal because no-one has said it is and tried someone for an offence.

Once they have, then all hell will break loose and a-frames will be worth less than a very cheap thing.


However...

Discussing them endlessly is tantamount to forcing some-ones hand. If YOU believe it to be legal, carry on. Stick your head above the parapet and you do no-one, including yourself, any favours.


We could ask VOSA via a freedom of Information Act request.

Q: when will VOSA spot check motorhomes pulling cars behind for legallity of the braking system when reversing.?

That would get the issue once and for all sorted.. they will be sitting out side shows next year pulling in motorhomes with toads checking the construction and use...

Now I am sure all the owners will thank those that keep raising the issues when the authorities look closer at them.

Brain, they do not listern to what you are saying.. same old post all the time..

Bob:Angry:
 

Geoffers

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After all this banging on about toads, how about a survey / poll about what % of us toad and how many trail and how many do neither ?
Any body care to set up a pole because I havn't a clue how to do it !:thumb:

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slobadoberbob

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Great idea .. why not tell VOSA as well

After all this banging on about toads, how about a survey / poll about what % of us toad and how many trail and how many do neither ?
Any body care to set up a pole because I havn't a clue how to do it !:thumb:


They would love that.. served up to them on a plate.. VOSA would know if it was worth hunting down the users.. not such a good idea... and I do not tow one.. I use a full blown 4 wheel brakes James May 2000 kg. 100% legal

Bob:Blush:
 

darklord

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How about,.......we all keep asking the same question, until we get the answer we want?



The seatbelt law

The mobile phone law

Personalised No plates

7.5t weight limits

Vehicle noise levels

Just a few other illegal acts that are not policed as well as they might be........
 

Snowbird

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I have Aframed for many years all over Europe and North Africa with NO problems whatsoever. I CHOSE to do that because it suited ME.
All this banging on about people that CHOOSE to Aframe has not done anyone any good.
It smacks of the same problems started by SOME people regarding RV width etc several years ago.
If truth be known we ALL do something illegally and I defy anyone to show me one vehicle whether it be a motorcycle,car,truck,motorhome or RV that I cannot find something illegal on.
Why oh why can we not ban these stupid threads that do nobody any good only the people that practice law.
Am not saying do anything illegally on purpose but if its not broke why try to mend it. If it wasn't for threads like this and people writing to other countries embassy's,VOSA DVLA etc not one person would have had a problem with an Aframe anywhere in Europe.
LIVE AND LET LIVE springs to mind.

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johnp10

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Am not saying do anything illegally on purpose but if its not broke why try to mend it. If it wasn't for threads like this and people writing to other countries embassy's,VOSA DVLA etc not one person would have had a problem with an Aframe anywhere in Europe.
LIVE AND LET LIVE springs to mind.

It's not broke, it's just not legal...never has been.
Are you saying no one has had a problem in Europe, as in Spain, Germany, etc?
Live and let live is not an option here. They are not legal in that there is no legislation which says so. Conversely, there is legislation which is not met by these devices.
Therefore illegal.
NOT CHOICE, BUT FACT!

My wife said last night.. why do you bother? Yes I agree why do I bother.. soon or later there will be a proscecution and then you will start moaning that you were not warned

Bob:cry:

Absolutely.
There will be a cry about "new" legislation the govt has sneaked in just to take money off MH owners.

At some point a keen VOSA inspector will twig to the illegality of these devices and the sh*t will hit the proverbial.

Adherence to legislation is NOT optional.
"I dont think it's right", "I done it all over Morocco", "The guy says they are safe" etc etc. are not defences in a court of law.

I'm bored with this, it's going in circles.:yawn:
Can we have a gassing thread, please, or one regarding the legality of carrying a 7.5 kg gas cylinder on a pushbike?
 

Snowbird

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I agree John...am bored with it too but it keeps rearing its ugly head.

Tell you what lets have a thread relating to how many motorhomers are running overweight and if that's dangerous.:whatthe:

Or maybe one about how many RVers are running motorhomes over 7.5 tons on a car license.:Blush:

Or maybe one about overlength motorhomes towing a trailer eh.:Eeek:

Non of these affect me cos have got a HGV license and I don't tow a trailer anymore,cos I choose not to.:thumb:
 

slobadoberbob

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Could not say it better

It's not broke, it's just not legal...never has been.
Are you saying no one has had a problem in Europe, as in Spain, Germany, etc?
Live and let live is not an option here. They are not legal in that there is no legislation which says so. Conversely, there is legislation which is not met by these devices.
Therefore illegal.
NOT CHOICE, BUT FACT!



Absolutely.
There will be a cry about "new" legislation the govt has sneaked in just to take money off MH owners.

At some point a keen VOSA inspector will twig to the illegality of these devices and the sh*t will hit the proverbial.

Adherence to legislation is NOT optional.
"I dont think it's right", "I done it all over Morocco", "The guy says they are safe" etc etc. are not defences in a court of law.

I'm bored with this, it's going in circles.:yawn:
Can we have a gassing thread, please, or one regarding the legality of carrying a 7.5 kg gas cylinder on a pushbike?


John, I could not have said it better... one law for the law abiding, and another for those that do not subscribe to community values.. read break the law not by not knowing, but do so despite knowing. Not acceptible in my book.

I agree it is only a matter of time and VOSA will catch on to it and then no more toads... cannot say that would be a bad thing in my book.. if no toads then no arguments about them.

But as said they would then be on about something else... But a debate on carrying a gas bottle on a psuhbike might make a change.. but then there is laws about that if I am not wrong.

Bob:whatthe:

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scotjimland

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I agree John...am bored with it too but it keeps rearing its ugly head.

Tell you what lets have a thread relating to how many motorhomers are running overweight and if that's dangerous.:whatthe:

Or maybe one about how many RVers are running motorhomes over 7.5 tons on a car license.:Blush:

Or maybe one about overlength motorhomes towing a trailer eh.:Eeek:

Non of these affect me cos have got a HGV license and I don't tow a trailer anymore,cos I choose not to.:thumb:


or the one about overhang ..

The rear overhang from centre line of rear axle to rear of vehicle must not exceed 60% of the wheelbase....how many RVs exceed this.. or put another way, how many conform ..
 

Snowbird

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or the one about overhang ..

The rear overhang from centre line of rear axle to rear of vehicle must not exceed 60% of the wheelbase....how many RVs exceed this.. or put another way, how many conform ..

Very few conform Jim....but then again some things we CHOOSE to ignore.

As I said in a previous post "Show me any vehicle and I will find somthing illegal on it".
 

scotjimland

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Very few conform Jim....but then again some things we CHOOSE to ignore.

As I said in a previous post "Show me any vehicle and I will find somthing illegal on it".

yes indeed.. we all have a 'Nelson's Eye' when it suits us ..

we should remove the log from our own eye before pointing out the speck in another's

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Snowbird

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I wonder how many RVers have checked there rear axle weights when loaded and fuel tanks full.
Then when attaching a trailer with a nose weight multiplied by the leverage effect of the overhang checked the rear axle weight again.
I think there would be a few red faces around.
But then again somthings are best ignored.:Cool:
 

harryoxford2

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-Or a caravan!::bigsmile:

Quote from the Ken Bruce show on radio 2 today, 38mins 50secs into the show-check it out on I-player 20/09/11!

" Why don't we invent a motorhome without an engine which we can tow with our car? This time next year we'll be rich I'm telling you!":ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

I am wayyyyyy ahead of the crowd as usual, I got an A frame fitted to my smart passion for 2, then removed my 6.8 engine outta the motorhome and now I legally drive from the smart car pushing the motorhome...I get 67 mph downhill and to be fair 1 mph uphill, fuel savings are now massive at 75 mpg downhill and to be fair 0000000.8897 mpg uphill.
When stopped by the police I remain very still in the smart car and they go to the motorhome...I removed the engine hood and they see there is no engine and no driver and scratch their heads and drive off.
A cunning plan that will soon catch on throughout the European Community.

PLUS...I dont get charged for an extra vehicle at campsites.

On one point of law that seems to be quoted under the Geneva Convention or whateva it is....."if its ok in your country its OK in theirs" if that were true then X factor Sat night viewing would be replaced by the "Lets stone to death the daughter in law and her lover" show....obviously Simon Cowell would be producing that as well:)
 

harryoxford2

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OMG I didnt know their would be so much technical interest in my rig.....to answer re the steering....a series of well placed pulleys, some sticky back pvc and garden twine ensure when I turn the smart car steering wheel to the left the same happens in the RV......I would have thought that was sooo obvious...doh.

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harryoxford2

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This will be an interesting thread (no pun intended re garden twine) as it develops.
Seriously I would like to thank those who have already trodden the path of trying to establish the legallity.

Typically I am literally on the cusp of getting a toad A framed...until I saw all this......

I wonder if any of the A frame manufacturer/fitters are brave enough to back up their product by providing legal protection/supply of Barrister/pay off fines for their customers.

I wonder what thier own liability is as the manufacturer???

Gonna watch with interest how this develops.
 

harryoxford2

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Welcome back Arry....were ya bin ???

Hi Snowbird,
I went crusin in me big rig.....got it mot recently and the examiner said it was mint..always boosts the ego and wallet a throw away remark. Plus he let me get under the rig in the inspection pit...Ive found loads of screws and nuts and bolts and shiny things that I can fiddle about wid now.....

I went for the mot and realised I made a huge mistake as I had full tanks petrol lpg and water as I was going crusin from the mot station. I went into a cold sweat I wouldnt make the weight re anxles and stuff.

He said I had loads left over so I was pleased.

I got it done at a lorry mot place and although the regs treat the mot different to a lorry I asked him to tell me if anything wouldnt pass the lorry stuff....if that makes sense...better safe than sorry I thought.

At the end he said "Your tires are muddy" then he smiled....what a nice chappy.

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slobadoberbob

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I would say there is a 'duty of care' issue

This will be an interesting thread (no pun intended re garden twine) as it develops.
Seriously I would like to thank those who have already trodden the path of trying to establish the legallity.

Typically I am literally on the cusp of getting a toad A framed...until I saw all this......

I wonder if any of the A frame manufacturer/fitters are brave enough to back up their product by providing legal protection/supply of Barrister/pay off fines for their customers.

I wonder what thier own liability is as the manufacturer???

Gonna watch with interest how this develops.



I think there is a clear case of Duty of Care requirement. Any maker would need to be able to prove that there product is legal .. if they cannot then they do so at there peril..as in costs and damages. Product law will very likely cover this issue.

If thinking of buying one.. just ask for them to show you how it is reversed and turned at the same time... It will be interesting to see them demonstrate it.. I do mean as from when the motorhome or RV comes to a stop and is immediately reversed:whatthe:..

Anyway I have had my say many times on this subject, I know the law, I made my choice and went for the more expensive route of a full blown 4 wheel brakes trailer to carry my car... I do not worry about France, Spain or anywhere else as I am legal.. simples.

Love the idea of Harry re the smart pushing the motorhome...... only snag is that for the modern Smart you cannot get a street legal tow ball (talking about towing with the smart here) but I doubt it could have one fitted at the front either.. but a great idea.. like it.

Bob:thumb:
 

scotjimland

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I made my choice and went for the more expensive route of a full blown 4 wheel brakes trailer to carry my car... I do not worry about France, Spain or anywhere else as I am legal.. simples.


Bob:thumb:


As you have previously explained Bob, your choice of a trailer was based on your needs, ie to carry your car and mobilty scooter(s)

So even if they were 100% legal throughout the EU they wouldn't fit your purpose.

People choose A frames for their simplicity in hitching up, ( it's a one man job), stability while under tow and storing when not required...
 

beachcaster

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It does seem once again the law is an ass.
If they are safe..and easy to use then draught a law that makes them legal.
If they are not make them safe....and sort out some practical specs.

All this bit about reversing is rubbish. Who needs to reverse?

Cars being towed this way are fast to unhitch. Who says this is important?
As for braking............come on guys it must be able to be overcome if its an issue?

The law makers are making....or perhaps not making a meal out of toads....whats new.

Oh for practical people to lead us.


barry

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slobadoberbob

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for a starter

It does seem once again the law is an ass.
If they are safe..and easy to use then draught a law that makes them legal.
If they are not make them safe....and sort out some practical specs.

All this bit about reversing is rubbish. Who needs to reverse?

Cars being towed this way are fast to unhitch. Who says this is important?
As for braking............come on guys it must be able to be overcome if its an issue?

The law makers are making....or perhaps not making a meal out of toads....whats new.

Oh for practical people to lead us.


barry


For a starter the law was in being before the toad was thought of.

It is for the makers of the toads to design a system to meet the law, not the law change to meet the building of toad equipment.

Who needs to reverse... OH boy.... I have to often reverse in a petrol station with a trailer.. so what is the differance with an RV towing a toad? even at Shepton they had to be reversed. Ever been in a lane where you might have to back up? yea I know you will just nip out and disconnect it.. what a load of codswallop.


Fast to unhitch... love to time you.

Not impressed with your arguments.. little to advance the debate.

Bob:Sad:
 

beachcaster

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For a starter the law was in being before the toad was thought of.

It is for the makers of the toads to design a system to meet the law, not the law change to meet the building of toad equipment.

Who needs to reverse... OH boy.... I have to often reverse in a petrol station with a trailer.. so what is the differance with an RV towing a toad? even at Shepton they had to be reversed. Ever been in a lane where you might have to back up? yea I know you will just nip out and disconnect it.. what a load of codswallop.


Fast to unhitch... love to time you.

Not impressed with your arguments.. little to advance the debate.

Bob:Sad:

Well Im not impressed with your arguments Bob .
Why be so negative ?

Things change.... so change the law.
Your first 4 lines are an own goal and obviously written by someone (who as you have told me in the past ) who is suffering from a legal background.
All Im saying is if they work.......make them legal.
I think its important to be creative and think of solutions rather than problems.

As for codswallop:Smile: they really dont need to be reversed too often, they just dont. Especially if you plan ahead.

At Shepton Mallet I saw a lady in her 60s take a Yaris off the back of her motorhome in three minutes at most. 2 minutes more the A frame was in the back of her car. She was parked in the field behind us .
The need for reversing is so rare its not even an issue. I was so impressed I went over and had a chat with her.

The law should change to keep up with developing technology... designers should not have to design products to comply with out of date laws.

I know this is not how the law is today....but lets be creative and forward thinking


barry
 
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Wildman

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All this bit about reversing is rubbish. Who needs to reverse?
sorry Barry but the facts are simple like it or not when on an "A" frame the toad is deemed to be a trailer and has to comply with trailer legislation which is where the various laws come from.
What is needed is not to defy the law or even change it. But a new law that defines a toad as being something other than a trailer. When that is in place then the ins and outs can be ironed out by industry and the powers that be. Until then we are stuck with trailer legislation and the endless debate. End of story.

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johnp10

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As you have previously explained Bob, your choice of a trailer was based on your needs, ie to carry your car and mobilty scooter(s)

So even if they were 100% legal throughout the EU they wouldn't fit your purpose.

People choose A frames for their simplicity in hitching up, ( it's a one man job), stability while under tow and storing when not required...

Nothing to do with whose purpose it fits, Jim. The issue here is it cannot be demonstrated that A frame equipment fitted to trailers (cars) meets legal requirements.

or the one about overhang ..

The rear overhang from centre line of rear axle to rear of vehicle must not exceed 60% of the wheelbase....how many RVs exceed this.. or put another way, how many conform ..

This requirement is again from C&U Regs 1986. (Reg 100 I think).
You will not find many vehicles of any type exceeding this dimension, as from my own experience, one extended to this maximum is barely driveable. Steers like a bag of sh***.


Anyway, I cant find anywhere in Croners, Kitchins Road Transport Law, C&U Regs 1986 or the Disney website which says it's illegal to transport a 7.5kg gas cylinder on a pushbike. That being the case, I'm off on me bike to fill me cylinders with a mickey mouse connector off ebay, ready for Lincoln this weekend.

Do I need a driving licence for me bike?
 

beachcaster

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sorry Barry but the facts are simple like it or not when on an "A" frame the toad is deemed to be a trailer and has to comply with trailer legislation which is where the various laws come from.
What is needed is not to defy the law or even change it. But a new law that defines a toad as being something other than a trailer. When that is in place then the ins and outs can be ironed out by industry and the powers that be. Until then we are stuck with trailer legislation and the endless debate. End of story.

I totally agree.....I was trying to look ahead and be creative not to be hampered by the interpretation of a law that isnt working today.......when I said change the law..I wasnt being technical
I just meant (without being legal) If a toad is safe then find a way to make it legal.Clearly :)Smile: )old laws are not helping here especially as BOb said they were created before Toads existed.

Look ahead understand the relevant issues..sort design issues out...make it work..make it legal

Lets hope it's not the end of the story...

barry
 

RonnieJ

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What's the differance between the brakes on an A frame or a trailer?

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Chris

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As I see it an awful lot of people use A frames in the UK without any problems.

Clearly the police don't seem to have an issue with them.

If they are technically illegal then the technicality is clearly lost on traffic cops.

Does anyone know of anyone being prosecuted in the UK for using an A frame?
 

johnp10

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sorry Barry but the facts are simple like it or not when on an "A" frame the toad is deemed to be a trailer and has to comply with trailer legislation which is where the various laws come from.
What is needed is not to defy the law or even change it. [HI]But a new law that defines a toad as being something other than a trailer. [/HI]When that is in place then the ins and outs can be ironed out by industry and the powers that be. Until then we are stuck with trailer legislation and the endless debate. End of story.

Got to disagree, Roger. We cannot expect a change in the law every time someone thinks a particular bit of kit is ok to use just because they have it or they feel the law shouldnt apply to them!
Legislation already exists. The criteria should not be " make new laws to legalise our illegal kit!", but [HI]"manufacture the equipment to meet current requirements".[/HI]
Get the kit manufactured to meet requirements, get it properly type approved. Then there is a debate.
Until someone does that, there is no debate other than the usual "It doesnt suit me".

Example:
If I think we should be able to assault brandy drinkers.
Should the assault laws be changed to accomodate me?
Before anyone says !it's not the same"................IT IS!

Anyway, push bike and gas cylinder hard to ride in this breeze.
 

beachcaster

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Got to disagree, Roger. We cannot expect a change in the law every time someone thinks a particular bit of kit is ok to use just because they have it or they feel the law shouldnt apply to them!
Legislation already exists. The criteria should not be " make new laws to legalise our illegal kit!", but [HI]"manufacture the equipment to meet current requirements".[/HI]
Get the kit manufactured to meet requirements, get it properly type approved. Then there is a debate.
Until someone does that, there is no debate other than the usual "It doesnt suit me".

Example:
If I think we should be able to assault brandy drinkers.
Should the assault laws be changed to accomodate me?
Before anyone says !it's not the same"................IT IS!

Anyway, push bike and gas cylinder hard to ride in this breeze.

If the law cant cope with new technology then there will be no progress
therefore it should be changed. The brandy thing though a good idea
doesnt fall into new technology.
I go back to what I have already said..........do toads work ? can they be made safe..are they better?

Lets face it positioning 4 wheels on top of another 4 wheels then towing it
is hardly progress...its 4 wheels too many !!

When they invent cars that fly............will they still have to stop at traffic lights on the ground ? Things change .

barry

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