'TOADs'...'A' frames Proposed New Regulations ?!

Discussion in 'Motorhome Chat' started by davidallan, Sep 20, 2011.

  1. davidallan

    davidallan Funster

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    Leeds
    This Q relates to the proposed NEW Regulations/Tech spec that is to be introduced in the next 2/3 years.??

    Most of us that TOW a vehicle behind our MH with the A-Frame[Braked] have most likely come across suppliers of other systems which SEEM to claim that they are FUTURE proof and will be OK with the Pending new Regulations in all EEC countries.:Doh:

    WE would really like to upgrade/Renew our 'A' frame to a much more "light weight" type that are available BUT I have been unable to find the these 'NEW REGULATIONS' that may come in 2014/2015???:Blush:

    ARE THEY WRITTEN YET & AGREED ?.....PLEASE Post a link IF there is one

    Many thanks for any pointers...:thumb:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Wildman

    Wildman Read Only Funster

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    15,458
    Likes Received:
    8,598
    Location:
    Ilfracombe, Devon
    Ha ha "A" frames are banned in a number of countries now and that number is increasing. Only way to protect yourself is to get a trailer.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. slobadoberbob

    slobadoberbob Read Only Funster

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    6,159
    Likes Received:
    1,970
    Location:
    Kent, garden of England
    100% right Roger

    We had a chapter and verse copy of a letter to Mick (RVOC member) from his MEP and the Spannish Ambassidor in London.. quoting the law and the dates it came in to force. We have seen motorhomes stopped now in many countries including German and the Check Republic and Belgium.

    At present the toads on sale in the UK which rely on a cable to apply the cars rear brakes do not comply with the RTA - Construction and use regulations. Much debate recently on RVOC about this. We have had all the regulations listed and regardless what some dealers will say they are not legal as they cannot be reversed and braked. It is not until you get to a fully automatic system do you get near sorting out the issues. But still not legal in europe.

    Bob:Eeek:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. jhorsf

    jhorsf Read Only Funster

    Joined:
    May 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,157
    Likes Received:
    8,067
    Location:
    DERBYSHIRE
    Hot POTATO anyone:Rofl1:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. 656

    656 Read Only Funster

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,150
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    The universe
    Can of Worms?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. jhorsf

    jhorsf Read Only Funster

    Joined:
    May 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,157
    Likes Received:
    8,067
    Location:
    DERBYSHIRE
    It is actually a very good question
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. moandick

    moandick Read Only Funster

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    112
    Location:
    Landrake, Cornwall
    The Big Pitch Guide in very close collaboration with another member on here (Poacher) has been looking into this situation - involving Mick and Pat, Des and Ann and Bob French - all stopped for towing with an A Frame in various Countries.

    Poacher has been very deep into the subject - and among other relative Authorities - has been as far as the UK and European Parliament, the Manufacturers of the over-ride brake systems, Vosa, DVLA, Uncle Tom Cobley and all. The investigation is on-going.

    In essence - yes the rules will change in 2013 - but nobody yet is quite sure what they will change to.

    One thing is very, very, certain - and I make no bones about it and I will not discuss it any further because it is set in EU parliament blood:

    Just because the UK does not stop its citizens from towing with A frames DOES NOT (and I mean DOES NOT in capital letters) imply that you are allowed to tow with an A Frame in other Countries.

    Each Country is allowed to make its own laws - and abide by them irrespective of what the current EU ruling is. For example - Spain has actually passed a law banning A Frames - and in some cases Policemen are backing up that law - but just because some do - and some don't, does not make it legal.

    There is still NO proof that A frames are legal in the UK - similarly - as far as I know, nobody has yet proved that they are not legal -

    Nevertheless - it has to be said and understood - just because nobody has been stopped in this Country for towing with an A Frame - does NOT make it legal to tow with an A Frame in other European Countries.

    END - OF - STORY.


    Dick
     
    • Like Like x 7
  8. jonandshell

    jonandshell Funster

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,258
    Likes Received:
    7,876
    Location:
    West Norfolk
    -Or a caravan!:BigGrin:

    Quote from the Ken Bruce show on radio 2 today, 38mins 50secs into the show-check it out on I-player 20/09/11!

    " Why don't we invent a motorhome without an engine which we can tow with our car? This time next year we'll be rich I'm telling you!":Rofl1::Rofl1:
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
    • Like Like x 1
  9. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    28,934
    Likes Received:
    25,574
    Location:
    .
    many a true word spoken in jest ... :Wink:

    makes more sense than tugging a car :thumb:
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. jonandshell

    jonandshell Funster

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2010
    Messages:
    5,258
    Likes Received:
    7,876
    Location:
    West Norfolk
    Sorry to go off topic, but also on the Ken Bruce Show on Radio 2, they advocated towing the motorhome with your small car instead to save fuel "because some of those small cars will do 80mpg"!:Rofl1::Rofl1::Rofl1:
     
  11. Larrynwin

    Larrynwin Funster

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2008
    Messages:
    8,497
    Likes Received:
    12,692
    Location:
    Norfolk
    Don't understand Bob, I have a Car a Tow A Frame with overrun brakes via a cable which links to the footbrake which obviously operate on all four wheels not just the rear brakes. As the servo is not operating there is a braking efficiency of around 50% which I understand meets legal requirements for braked trailers .
    Reversing is difficult but is possible for a few yards with the overrun system allowing the wheels to run free.
    My understanding from many threads on this subject is that this system is not illegal in the UK.

    Larry
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. johnp10

    johnp10 Funster

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    7,638
    Likes Received:
    14,190
    Location:
    North Lincolnshire
    Hi Larry,

    Strangely, the efficiency of the brakes is not the same thing as "braking efficiency"
    All road vehicles must have a service brake efficiency of at least 50%. (C&U Regs).
    The "efficiency" referred to is measured as a percentage of the vehicle gross weight. Whilst familiar with C&U, I'm no technician, but I doubt a trailer (toad car in this case) designed to have brakes enhanced by a servo would be able to meet requirements without the servo actually working? I base this on experience of being towed in a vehicle with a dead engine, hence no servo. Brakes needed extreme pressure to have any effect.

    May be wrong...over to the technicians.

    Why not buy a fiver or some other sort of caravan? much more efficient combination and more living space.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. scotjimland

    scotjimland Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    28,934
    Likes Received:
    25,574
    Location:
    .
    John..


    Geo conducted tests with a toad on his brake rollers...

    http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/motorhome-chat/11534-note-frames.html


    http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/tech-mech-general/8418-physics-towed-vehicles-2.html
     
  14. Larrynwin

    Larrynwin Funster

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2008
    Messages:
    8,497
    Likes Received:
    12,692
    Location:
    Norfolk
    John, I love my RV, have tugged a caravan before and would not go back. If a frames become illegal in the UK I will use my trailer for the toad. :thumb:

    Larry
     
  15. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Messages:
    29,461
    Likes Received:
    16,889
    Location:
    YO11 2BD
    hope you dont mind if i correct you on the above Bob...

    a correctly fitted A frame operates ALL the brakes via the footbrake pedal, not the handbrake cable. :thumb:

    if brakes are fitted then they ALL must work..

    trailers/toads under 750kg do not require brakes but if fitted they too must work.

    this also applies to motorbikes/trikes being towed on a towbar bracket.
     
  16. johnp10

    johnp10 Funster

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    7,638
    Likes Received:
    14,190
    Location:
    North Lincolnshire
    This subject has been covered before and I conducted a few tests on our Mot brake rollers in response to that post
    Brake efficiency is NOT effected by the lack of, or failure of power or vacuum assistance
    Geo



    AS I said, Jim, I'm not a technician.
    That being the case I wont,unlike some on here, argue a point with a qualified person.

    However, if there is no discernible effect on braking efficiency with / without a servo, what's the point of fitting and testing them in the first place?
    Surely if the vehicle was type approved with a servo assisted braking system, it no longer Type / Ministers' Approval Cert if the system is inoperative?
    I cant find in C&U anything that states clearly that toad type devices are or are not permitted.

    Or am I wrong? are these toad devices properly type approved, or just the subject of wishful thinking?
    Bearing in mind the manufacturer's verbal statement that it's legal is not type approval, it's sales patter.

    To take the EU stance: If it dont say you cant, then you can.
    To take the UK stance: If it dont say you can, then you cant.

    Usually the way of things.

    No axe to grind, just interested.
     
  17. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Messages:
    29,461
    Likes Received:
    16,889
    Location:
    YO11 2BD
    braking efficiency and brake pedal effort...two totally different animals.

    a none operative servo system will take considerably more brake pedal pressure to achieve the same efficiency.

    the law states a certain brake efficiency percentage must be achieved....it doesnt say how to achieve it !
     
  18. vwalan

    vwalan Funster

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    7,594
    Likes Received:
    3,853
    Location:
    roche cornwall
    hi, brakes on the wired aframes put the brakes on ok. servo.s just allow less pressure from your foot. the brakes have to have an automatic reverse system. a sliding hitch doesnt allow this by design. soarent really legal. air or hydraulic application with some systems are not controlled by the hitch but by the brake pedal in the towing vehicle.these systems are more likely to comply. even abroad. but if caught you have to be prepared to fight it all the way. use the dft. definition of fitting an aframe converts the toad into a trailer. i,m sure it would stand up in court. as to can you reverse one thats another issue. they can be reversed but how far and round corners again another issue.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. johnp10

    johnp10 Funster

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    7,638
    Likes Received:
    14,190
    Location:
    North Lincolnshire
    That's the point I made, John.
    "Braking Efficiency" is measured as a percentage of the vehicles gross weight.(MAM, same thing.)
    An efficiency of 50% is required, which doesnt mean the brakes only have to work half as well as normal, as hinted at earlier.
    Can the "considerably more pressure" be exerted by an overrun cable to the footbrake pedal?
    Just dont see how that can be achieved without the system's servo, thats all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. pappajohn

    pappajohn Funster Life Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Messages:
    29,461
    Likes Received:
    16,889
    Location:
    YO11 2BD
    my point as well.....a servo system isnt designed to work without the servo operating.

    the old pre servo systems had bigger master and wheel cylinder bores and a completely different master cyl to wheel cyl pressure ratio negating the need for assistance.....yet producing the same or similar efficiency.
    fit a servo to an old pre servo car without changing anything else and you would lock the brakes every time you hit the pedal.
     
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...

Share This Page