Cars on A-frames in the EU - Fined or not? (1 Viewer)

[Snowbird]

I for one have never hinted that A frames are illegal in the UK or for that matter any other country in Europe. What I have said is by answering the OP, they are definitely ILLEGAL in Spain. No two ways about it. Its ILLEGAL to tow ANY car in Spain other than by a registered grua. So in answer to the OP. If you do use an A frame in Spain, you will be breaking Spanish law. Of course many people do break Spanish law each and every day they stay for over 90 days, and get away with it. The choice is yours, if you are happy breaking the law in any country. But be prepared to pay the price when caught. There are no grey areas for A frames in Spain, its clearly written down in Spanish law. Its ILLEGAL, that means not allowed in any language.

 

[Judge Mental]

Please put us out of our misery and provide a link to support your claim that A Frames are illegal?

Actually if you can't/don't/won't/scared to tow why are so bothered what other people do?

I had bought a new smart car for that very purpose...please leave me be? Read up on uk/Napoleonic law all on the Web

I would not get away with such language adding a smiley does absolve anything

Keep it friendly eh? Not a clue why this topic gets so heated

Eddie

 

[Judge Mental]

I for one have never hinted that A frames are illegal in the UK or for that matter any other country in Europe. What I have said is by answering the OP, they are definitely ILLEGAL in Spain. No two ways about it. Its ILLEGAL to tow ANY car in Spain other than by a registered grua. So in answer to the OP. If you do use an A frame in Spain, you will be breaking Spanish law. Of course many people do break Spanish law each and every day they stay for over 90 days, and get away with it. The choice is yours, if you are happy breaking the law in any country. But be prepared to pay the price when caught. There are no grey areas for A frames in Spain, its clearly written down in Spanish law. Its ILLEGAL, that means not allowed in any language.

To add to that if it was not a grey area in UK (not tested in court and no statute law supporting use supports it?) EU Vienna convention would kick in and it would be legal everywhere including Spain

End off from me

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[Judge Mental]

Please put us out of our misery and provide a link to support your claim that A Frames are illegal?

Actually if you can't/don't/won't/scared to tow why are you so bothered what other people do?

I'm not you are wrong. I have advanced melinoma and my future cancelled
Read my answer above or how about adding me to ignore list

Actually why does my contributions on an issue I'm very interstead in bother you

xx Eddie

 

[olley]

To add to that if it was not a grey area in UK (not tested in court and no statute law supporting use supports it?) EU Vienna convention would kick in and it would be legal everywhere including Spain

End off from me

As I understand it neither the UK or Spain signed it, we just abide by it. So it would still be illegal in Spain.

Ian

 

[sdc77]

I think this topic gets heated for a variety of reasons ... not least that some folk have spent a fortune on an A Frame / car combination (or a trailer) and others refuse to acknowledge Spains position legally ..

I'm curious though .. does anyone think that using an A Frame in the UK is illegal or legal .. maybe we should have a poll?

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[Judge Mental]

Because I already very clearly stated Eddie (if you would actually take the time to read what I and others have said here) that they are not legal in Spain and other countries.

"just as under Spanish law amongst others, they are illegal.".


Kapish?

OMGG repeating my self as can't get though...


if it was covered by uk statute law (tested in court ) the EU vienna convention would kick in and it would be legal eu wide including Spain where you could appeal and win!

don't know why people getting so angry. I'll butt out now unless quoted again

Love yeah ducks

 

[Judge Mental]

As I understand it neither the UK or Spain signed it, we just abide by it. So it would still be illegal in Spain.

Ian

Seems like I'm not as cleaver as I thought Ian

In fact you are half right. UK has signed and you seem to be correct re Spain. So I was wrong and apologise to those I have upset. Ian you are a gentleman TBH

Tuff tittys Spanish tourism as it would be legal in other ratified EU country's


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_Treaties

 

[eddie]

Read my answer above or how about adding me to ignore list

I ignore no one its rude

Actually why does my contributions on an issue I'm very interstead in bother you

It doesn't bother me, so long as no one reads you opinions and takes them as fact.
From the VOSA web site

the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other
vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met.

Full document here:-
Broken Link Removed

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[peterc10]

I am getting a bit worried by all this. AFAIK in the UK anything is legal unless the law, i.e. common law (previous court decisions) or statute, makes it illegal.

Just because there is no law making an A frame legal in the UK does not mean it is illegal. After all there is no law making mowing my lawn on a Thursday afternoon legal, but I am confident enough to risk it safe in the knowledge that I am highly unlikely to do time for it. Spain is different. According to a previous post (which I can't be ar**d to find) there is a law there that makes their use illegal.

And I understand that Germany is different too. Somebody once told me that every activity there is either mandatory or prohibited. You MUST mow your lawn, but you MUST NOT mow it on a Sunday

Let's get back to the original question, which is a very practical one, i.e. has anybody got first or second (not third) hand knowledge of actually been prosecuted for using an A frame in the UK or Europe. That way we may build up some practical data to help people who may be thinking of using an A frame to make up their mind.

BTW, so as you know my biases, I have not got an A frame and would never get one. To me you end up with all the disadvantages of being a tugger with none of the advantages. Happy with a scooter in the back for short trips and then moving on with the Motorhome when I get bored with everything that the scooter can easily reach. And if it is too wet for us use the scooter we will move on anyway.

But each to their own and I have no criticism of anybody who uses an A frame, especially if they give me a lift in their car when we are on the same site @DuxDeluxe .

 

[sdc77]

Actually it says that the uk sees it as a trailer and it has to conform to trailer law. (As we don't have an a frame law)

 

[Judge Mental]

I am getting a bit worried by all this. AFAIK in the UK anything is legal unless the law, i.e. common law (previous court decisions) or statute, makes it illegal.

Just because there is no law making an A frame legal in the UK does not mean it is illegal. After all there is no law making mowing my lawn on a Thursday afternoon legal, but I am confident enough to risk it safe in the knowledge that I am highly unlikely to do time for it. Spain is different. According to a previous post (which I can't be ar**d to find) there is a law there that makes their use illegal.

And I understand that Germany is different too. Somebody once told me that every activity there is either mandatory or prohibited. You MUST mow your lawn, but you MUST NOT mow it on a Sunday

Let's get back to the original question, which is a very practical one, i.e. has anybody got first or second (not third) hand knowledge of actually been prosecuted for using an A frame in the UK or Europe. That way we may build up some practical data to help people who may be thinking of using an A frame to make up their mind.

BTW, so as you know my biases, I have not got an A frame and would never get one. To me you end up with all the disadvantages of being a tugger with none of the advantages. Happy with a scooter in the back for short trips and then moving on with the Motorhome when I get bored with everything that the scooter can easily reach. And if it is too wet to us use the scooter we will move on anyway.

But each to their own and I have no criticism of anybody who uses an A frame, especially if they give me a lift in their car when we are on the same site @DuxDeluxe .

Partially right.....you are correct re UK situation

Eddie

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[DuxDeluxe]

just as under Spanish law amongst others, they are illegal..

OMGG repeating my self as can't get though...


if it was covered by uk statute law (tested in court ) the EU vienna convention would kick in and it would be legal eu wide including Spain where you could appeal and win!

don't know why people getting so angry. I'll butt out now unless quoted again

Love yeah ducks

I strongly suggest that you actually look up and study a bit about law, be it civil, statutory or in tort and then you would not make the statement above ..... I'm not getting angry about it but please ensure that you are less selective about your quotes. You know, as does everyone else, that this is NOT covered in Statute and neither does it need to be - see my hyperlink below. As for the Vienna convention, that must simply be your biggest red herring yet apart from the fact that we aren't actually signatories - it doesn't matter as the French, Spanish etc will simply ignore it and carry on as normal, and you know that. I would repeat my Mic drop if I could be bothered.

I have an A frame, as everybody knows, I also use it extensively in UK, wehave no intentions of using it on the continent (it was purchased with UK touring only in mind). I researched the subject very throughly including opinion from no less than the UK government about it Broken Link Removed and drew the reasonable conclusion that a) it was safer than a caravan due to the better braking system and b) fit for purpose.

Anecdotally, my neighbour up the road is a police traffic sergeant and I asked him. "It is a braked four wheel trailer" and referred to government advice.

Now please carry on telling the world that they are illegal and and the Vienna convention police will come and break down my door at 3am for even thinking about A frames, but myself and many others are very happy doing what we are doing in the full knowledge that what we are doing is legal, fully insured (in writing from the insurance company) and suits our own particular needs

 

[Judge Mental]

I strongly suggest that you actually look up and study a bit about law, be it civil, statutory or in tort and then you would not make the statement above ..... I'm not getting angry about it but please ensure that you are less selective about your quotes. You know, as does everyone else, that this is NOT covered in Statute and neither does it need to be - see my hyperlink below. As for the Vienna convention, that must simply be your biggest red herring yet apart from the fact that we aren't actually signatories - it doesn't matter as the French, Spanish etc will simply ignore it and carry on as normal, and you know that. I would repeat my Mic drop if I could be bothered.

I have an A frame, as everybody knows, I also use it extensively in UK, wehave no intentions of using it on the continent (it was purchased with UK touring only in mind). I researched the subject very throughly including opinion from no less than the UK government about it Broken Link Removed and drew the reasonable conclusion that a) it was safer than a caravan due to the better braking system and b) fit for purpose.

Anecdotally, my neighbour up the road is a police traffic sergeant and I asked him. "It is a braked four wheel trailer" and referred to government advice.

Now please carry on telling the world that they are illegal and and the Vienna convention police will come and break down my door at 3am for even thinking about A frames, but myself and many others are very happy doing what we are doing in the full knowledge that what we are doing is legal, fully insured (in writing from the insurance company) and suits our own particular needs

I have never claimed it was illegal in the UK....

Like I said elsewhere I only comment when quoted happy to shut up and butt out. But i dont know how to mark thread read? And as Eddie said it's rude to pre the ignore button especially on a new member (but thread disappears)
have also admitted I was incorrect re Spain re @olley contribution?

But it is ratified elsewhere in some EU cuntries not all. See my link in other post ....so again I was wrong re Spain and have apologised for it elsewhere.none of us perfect

I have said all this on another post

Eddie

 

[olley]

Seems like I'm not as cleaver as I thought Ian

In fact you are half right. UK has signed and you seem to be correct re Spain. So I was wrong and apologise to those I have upset. Ian you are a gentleman TBH

Tuff tittys Spanish tourism as it would be legal in other ratified EU country's

Ian

Gentleman, not sure about that judge, but thanks anyway.

Ian

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[big map]

Let's get back to the original question, which is a very practical one, i.e. has anybody got first or second (not third) hand knowledge of actually been prosecuted for using an A frame in the UK or Europe. That way we may build up some practical data to help people who may be thinking of using an A frame to make up their mind.

We have been stopped by the Police and fined in Germany. Copy of documentation attached.

We have been stopped in France and after discussion and email exchange we were sent on our way.
We have made 5 trips on average 3 weeks each.
We would not use it in Spain.

 

[Minxy]

Let's get back to the original question, which is a very practical one, i.e. has anybody got first or second (not third) hand knowledge of actually been prosecuted for using an A frame in the UK or Europe. That way we may build up some practical data to help people who may be thinking of using an A frame to make up their mind.

At least someone read my OP so it wasn't all in vain!

 

[tonyidle]

Couldn't put it better myself. It`s free choice, Those of us who have been around a bit, know that it is a UK grey area, but most UK insurers will accept it. As for "foreign parts" we know that "they dont like it upem". So dont do it. As the small T-V rodent says:- "Simples".

Pete

It's a carnivore .

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[eddie]

At least someone read my OP so it wasn't all in vain!

So it would seem that we all agree with VOSA that they consider it legal in the UK, and there "could" be issues abroad, but in reality it seems very few people have been fined whilst travelling.

 

[olley]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck!
Well it looks like a car, sounds like a car, so its a car! (on tow)

Ian

 

[Munchie]

If a foreiner comes to the UK I would expect them to obey our laws. Does this not also apply to us visiting another country?

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[DuxDeluxe]

If a foreiner comes to the UK I would expect them to obey our laws. Does this not also apply to us visiting another country?

In theory yes, but we know how much other countries ignore it.......

 

[Munchie]

So... that makes it right?

Visit another country obey their laws...end of!

 

[PeteH]

It's a carnivore .

Hell, Some people are picky!!.

Pete

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[PeteH]

"Is it a Plane?, No its?. It does not matter really what it is. The Europeans, who operate under an entirely Alien legal system, Think it is!. In their own view they are probably right. They certainly have the upper hand in their own backyards.

IF, I was being pedantic, and had lots of spare money to throw at a legal challenge, I would probably look at a test case, along the lines of the prohibition being out of line with the intention of the ROME treaty. Under which it was proposed that whilst, something MAY not be acceptable in a certain country. IF that (action) was not illegal in another EU country. then said action should be tolerated if used by a visitor on a temporary basis. This was the view taken by the UK, When German and Dutch Caravans came visiting even though they where Over-width, by UK standards (since amended BTW).

As for Operating in one`s own backyard. The cheeky (EU) B888ers are now having a go at the UK for imposing a "road tax" on non UK lorries, imposed by the UK in an effort to level the playing field. So as usual it`s one law for "them" and one for the UK.

No wonder we would better off OUT!.

Pete

 

[Geo]

So, if you want to tow, tow

If you don't agree with it, get puritanical on this forum and preach it is illegal without any actual proof lol

no one can quote any law to say that it is illegal to tow a car on an A frame

If your not sure of the benefits of having a little car to use or the legality of towing a little car, don't do it

It's really simple really lol

Ahem!!!!! If I A frame in Spain Sods Law says i'll get nicked
G

 

[PeteH]

Ahem!!!!! If I A frame in Spain Sods Law says i'll get nicked
G

Of course? No argument!. After all you are in the (corrupt)EU!. so what would you expect?

Vote OUT. you wont be worse off and in a few short year maybe even better off?. The bonus will be LESS likelihood of Sharia Law!, for your Grand-kids.

Pete

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[tonyidle]

Hell, Some people are picky!!.

Pete

 

[vwalan]

Of course? No argument!. After all you are in the (corrupt)EU!. so what would you expect?

Vote OUT. you wont be worse off and in a few short year maybe even better off?. The bonus will be LESS likelihood of Sharia Law!, for your Grand-kids.

Pete

my experiance of visiting alot of muslim countries is most dont have sharia law. could almost say only the ones uk is sticking up for.

 

[gus-lopez]

Seems like I'm not as cleaver as I thought Ian

In fact you are half right. UK has signed and you seem to be correct re Spain. So I was wrong and apologise to those I have upset. Ian you are a gentleman TBH

Tuff tittys Spanish tourism as it would be legal in other ratified EU country's


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_Treaties

No ,both the UK & Spain are non-signatories to the road regulation Vienna convention but agree to abide by it.

I ignore no one its rude

It doesn't bother me, so long as no one reads you opinions and takes them as fact.
From the VOSA web site
the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other
vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met.


Full document here:-
Broken Link Removed

Which is a get out as they know,as do the majority ,that the braking cannot be tested statically.
They should be endeavouring to find a way to actually test them.

[QUOTE="DuxDeluxe, post: 1850060, member: 3243"

Anecdotally, my neighbour up the road is a police traffic sergeant and I asked him. "It is a braked four wheel trailer" and referred to government advice.

[/QUOTE]
They just say what they are told to, If he had an honest opinion he wouldn't be in the job.

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