4 year old batteries not holding charge? change both? (1 Viewer)

[Lenny HB]

44 amp charge? was that from the alternator as an Electroblock can't produce that but you did say it may have a different charger. Gel's when fairly flat have a lower internal resistance than wet cells so can take a very high charge rate enough sometimes to destroy themselves. On my last van I have seen 44 amps going in from the alternator.
Note: just looked at the pic that's not an Elektroblock, it is a Reich e-Box they were fitted to other vans in the Hymer group so probably is an original fitting. Some info here.

You say that on charge they were reading 13.7v but have they been fully charged. Now you have had a load on the batteries you need to monitor the charging. The voltage should rise to 14.2 - 14.4 volts and then stay at that for 8 hours then reduce to 13.8v. If the voltage drops to 13.8 after one hour the charger is set to wet cell and the batteries will one get an 80% charge.

Once you have established that if things still not right you need to separate the batteries and run the tests on each one.

You really need to disconnect the solar or do the tests in the dark as once you have turned off the load even the smallest output from the solar will give a false high reading.

 

[funflair]

David I don't think your 09:00 reading of 12.7 was as high as it should be with Gel batteries, so possibly not fully charged as Lenny suggests.

Again Lenny is right about the solar but it should only give you better readings not worse so it doesn't look good so far.

Martin

 

[funflair]

44 amp charge? was that from the alternator as an Electroblock can't produce that but you did say it may have a different charger. Gel's when fairly flat have a lower internal resistance than wet cells so can take a very high charge rate enough sometimes to destroy themselves. On my last van I have seen 44 amps going in from the alternator.
Note: just looked at the pic that's not an Elektroblock, it is a Reich e-Box they were fitted to other vans in the Hymer group so probably is an original fitting. Some info here.

You say that on charge they were reading 13.7v but have they been fully charged. Now you have had a load on the batteries you need to monitor the charging. The voltage should rise to 14.2 - 14.4 volts and then stay at that for 8 hours then reduce to 13.8v. If the voltage drops to 13.8 after one hour the charger is set to wet cell and the batteries will one get an 80% charge.

Once you have established that if things still not right you need to separate the batteries and run the tests on each one.

You really need to disconnect the solar or do the tests in the dark as once you have turned off the load even the smallest output from the solar will give a false high reading.

The charger is on Gel in the photo.

Martin

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[DavidG58]

many thanks Lenny

just been back out, so a couple of hours since hooked back up, now showing 14.4V and only 4A going in

the 40A+ is normal when we first go on to hook up, by normal I mean I have seen it before

I am confident that the charger is set to Gel as we made sure when the batteries were changed when fitted 4 years ago

Despite my efforts on the headlight today I am not keen on disconnecting things

But it would bring me right back to the question in the title

If one battery is gone after 4 years do I need to change them both or risk just one?

If the answer would be do both, there is no real point in further tests other than for information

I am of course presuming from the test done that there is a problem

MH is kept on permanent hook up when home, only use this year has been three nights away, middle one on hook up, previous last use New Forest meet end of October

 

[DavidG58]

David I don't think your 09:00 reading of 12.7 was as high as it should be with Gel batteries, so possibly not fully charged as Lenny suggests.

Again Lenny is right about the solar but it should only give you better readings not worse so it doesn't look good so far.

Martin

I am confused by this fully charged question

On hook up since return on Sunday, that is all I can add, would have thought that would be fully charged ?

 

[SandraL]

I am confused by this fully charged question

On hook up since return on Sunday, that is all I can add, would have thought that would be fully charged ?

Since you have seen 14.4 vyou know that it is charging at that voltage for a while and then dropping back to 13.7.
The question is how long does it stay at 14.4?
Electroblock gel setting would be 8 hours.
I think you need to do similar test on individual batteries. Then you will know if one is better than the other.

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[DavidG58]

Since you have seen 14.4 vyou know that it is charging at that voltage for a while and then dropping back to 13.7.
The question is how long does it stay at 14.4?
Electroblock gel setting would be 8 hours.
I think you need to do similar test on individual batteries. Then you will know if one is better than the other.

I suspect that I already know that one battery will be better than the other, even from new it was quite likely to be the case

But then as my opening question, as they are both 4 years old do I change both or just one, if both the additional tests will not be of any real benefit, other than knowing for sure that one is worse than the other

at work we have previously paired up batteries to give us more life as a for of UPS, given up due to problem with one dragging the other down, now stick with a single battery, that could even be my better solution and a benefit of the test suggested, I could then remove the weaker battery and depend on one only just being more careful with use

 

[funflair]

I am confused by this fully charged question

On hook up since return on Sunday, that is all I can add, would have thought that would be fully charged ?

I suppose it depends how accurate your volts reading is, I am used to seeing 12.9 or 13 volts on our batteries.

BUT they should be fully charged after that time.

Martin

 

[Lenny HB]

The charger is on Gel in the photo.

Martin

Didn't say it wasn't just trying to establish if the batteries are getting the correct charge.

many thanks Lenny

just been back out, so a couple of hours since hooked back up, now showing 14.4V and only 4A going in

Need to make sure it holds at 14.4 for 8 hours.

the 40A+ is normal when we first go on to hook up, by normal I mean I have seen it before

Not good it it does it too often it will feck the charger, sounds like at least one battery could be duff, also there is no way that the charger should be capable of supplying that current.

If one battery is gone after 4 years do I need to change them both or risk just one?

With Gel's providing the good one gives good readings should be OK to replace just one.

MH is kept on permanent hook up when home, only use this year has been three nights away, middle one on hook up, previous last use New Forest meet end of October

Doesn't sound like a good idea with that charger. Why do you leave it plugged in when you have solar, I rarely ever plug my van in at home I let the solar do the work.

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[DavidG58]

Doesn't sound like a good idea with that charger. Why do you leave it plugged in when you have solar, I rarely ever plug my van in at home I let the solar do the work.

Ignorance, laziness, maintenance and convenience

Really didn't know any better

Means everything is always ready to go when we want, including cold fridge and freezer, which we also don't need to remember to put on vent, just leave full (other than perishables)

We also leave the heating on around 10C, in winter to avoid frost issues, rest of year just because we always do

In our early ownership we had problems with the cab battery which has since been changed, permanent charge overcame those problems then as well

we are at Vanbitz in a couple of weeks, I will let them test them and see if they have a Gel in stock they could fit, although I think they are good enough for a trip round France yet, we will have some hook up on that and plenty of miles initially and on way home

 

[daveandsan]

David if both batteries are four years old, change both of them.
Ps and throw that inverter away.

 

[maxi77]

Always difficult to be absolute from afar but it does sound like the batteries are past their best, a set of standard flooded cell batteries would have probably done as well. It is also likely your charger does not manage to get the batteries beyond 90% very common on motorhome and caravan chargers. Many boats use better and more expensive chargers that do better. It could be worth trying a smart charger with a reconditioning/repair setting to see if that recovers capacity. It would mean the batteries being offline for 24/48 hours.

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[MitchandJenny]

David.. I would NOT go back to just ONE battery ! !
I think this would be a retrograde step. Its no good producing power with solar, only to run out of storage for that power ! !
Only MY opinion mate. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Mitch.

 

[peterc10]

Only MY opinion mate.
Mitch.

And mine too.

 

[DavidG58]

@jenny and mitch @peterc10

I do really agree with your logic and opinion, trouble is though as soon as you have 2 or more batteries they are only as good as the worst one

hopefully all would be perfect for a good few years, just a nuisance when like mine now only 4 years old, I thought looked after fairly well and need changing, probably because one has failed

but doing the maths on them, just another few pence per day of ownership, not even massive per day on our relatively low useage

I reckon we have had on average 40 nights away / year, possibly half of them off hook up, so even on the no hook up days cost per day it works out at £5 / night, very crude sums there, (based on paying £400 for the batteries when new or to replace, pretty much the same) but given what it will have cost us in insurance, road tax, fuel, ferries, site fees etc not really worth consideration,

just get on and buy 2 new ones David

but what if they are then no better than the ones I am just about to throw out??

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[MitchandJenny]

You pays your money and....... you know the rest mate...
Just DO it and move on..
KEEP the old ones, connect them (ONE AT A TIME) to a good 4 sequence charger (this will first check the battery, then stick 18 volts through it intermittently to blow the crud off the plates, then slow charge it and finally put it on "float charge" which just keeps it at its peak)
C TECK make such chargers costing about £80, but ALDI and LIDLE also do them occasionally, costing less than £10 ! ! !
You will then know what you have and whether to bin or keep !!!
Once again, good luck David.
Mitch.

 

[DavidG58]

Thanks Mitch

Will be changing them, but not bothering with the restoration etc

what would I do with them then??

It would forever annoy me they didn't need changing in the first place if they recovered

Bin and move on

 

[peterc10]

@jenny and mitch @peterc10

I do really agree with your logic and opinion, trouble is though as soon as you have 2 or more batteries they are only as good as the worst one

But you are no better off buying one. How do you know that you have not bought the "worse one" out of the 2 in the shop?

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[friar tuck]

bin and move on is good advice,my local scrapyard pays about 60p per kilo for batteries so they may be worth weighing in could be 50 plus kilos for both,i used my old batteries to power some led lighting in my garage at home.i use a small motorbike charger to bring them back up.

 

[two]

If only one battery seems suspect, I’d ditch that straight away and see how you get on with the good one. It’ll probably perform better that the two together did, especially if the other is ‘dud’. How big a bank you need will depend on your demands between recharging. You may be pleasantly surprised to find that you can manage on only one battery and, if it hasn’t been damaged, it may last some considerable time more. You never know until you’ve tried.

I’d get two identical ones, if buying new, because I believe they need to be matched to work together in harmony. Any imbalance is likely to reduce performance to the lowest common denominator.

 

[PeteH]

Take the batteries off, one at a time, Buy or borrow a good 4 stage charger and give each one a 24hr Charge. then rest the battery, and check the standing charge if it`s within the numbers provided by Lenny, OK, and you need to look elsewhere for the issues draining them, if not the you need to consider replacement.

BTW Batteries charged from the Alternator can only achieve within the limits of the Alternator output. The only way round that is to fit a higher output Alternator. It is also possible that adding too many batteries could shorten the alternator life? When the Alt on my last R-V failed it was suggested that I uprate it (From 180 to 240 A)

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[Lenny HB]

You pays your money and....... you know the rest mate...
Just DO it and move on..
KEEP the old ones, connect them (ONE AT A TIME) to a good 4 sequence charger (this will first check the battery, then stick 18 volts through it intermittently to blow the crud off the plates, then slow charge it and finally put it on "float charge" which just keeps it at its peak)

Not good advice if they are not already fecked that will certainly finish them off. You can't do that will Gel batteries.

 

[PeteH]

Take the batteries off, one at a time, Buy or borrow a good 4 stage charger and give each one a 24hr Charge. then rest the battery, and check the standing charge if it`s within the numbers provided by Lenny, OK, and you need to look elsewhere for the issues draining them, if not the you need to consider replacement.

BTW Batteries charged from the Alternator can only achieve within the limits of the Alternator output. The only way round that is to fit a higher output Alternator. It is also possible that adding too many batteries could shorten the alternator life? When the Alt on my last R-V failed it was suggested that I uprate it (From 180 to 240 A)

I cannot edit the post now, BUT have a look here:- http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-charging-faults.php Some sound advice? I think?.

 

[maxi77]

Take the batteries off, one at a time, Buy or borrow a good 4 stage charger and give each one a 24hr Charge. then rest the battery, and check the standing charge if it`s within the numbers provided by Lenny, OK, and you need to look elsewhere for the issues draining them, if not the you need to consider replacement.


BTW Batteries charged from the Alternator can only achieve within the limits of the Alternator output. The only way round that is to fit a higher output Alternator. It is also possible that adding too many batteries could shorten the alternator life?
When the Alt on my last R-V failed it was suggested that I uprate it (From 180 to 240 A)

I would suggest perhaps a longer charging period unless it is a big, say 20 amp charger.
I have never had a problem with alternators and big battery banks. My last boat had 330 ah battery bank and the 35 amp alternator on my BMC 1500 diesel coped fine. The only real problem is time to reach full charge but that was not a real problem for me.

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[DavidG58]

I am grateful for all the advice on what to do to try / test / maybe recover the batteries

trouble is they involve a fair bit of risk and skill level that I really do not have

even if I could easily get to the battery terminals, that would already involve kneeling or lying on the ground, as soon as I disconnected one battery, those leads would still be live, a short circuit damaging the charger or something else, solar panel maybe and I would really wish I have never bothered

I am due at Vanbitz early Feb on our way to France, I will talk to them before we get there, see if they can test the batteries, maybe suggest one of the gizmos often mention B2B or similar, or simply confirm the condition of my batteries and change if needed

It is more important to me to relax and enjoy my holiday than have a constant worry about what we can use

 

[DavidG58]

All this talk of fully charged does confuse me

It might be that my charger isn't working properly, but again I do not have the skill to test / check that, but when we first connect to mains we do get a reading on our controller which suggests massive Amps (40+) being delivered for a short while then dropping down quickly

I am just about to move the MH I will look at the values and report back, but if it is delivering so many amps and is on permanent hook up I would have thought it would be 'fully charged' once it has been home for a few days?

 

[Neilfg]

David like you we want to enjoy trouble free travelling so change the batteries, but only after getting the charging kit checked out.

If you do change the batteries, have you thought about keeping one of the old ones (the good one) for your inverter usage, so completely separating off your usage, charge the inverter battery via a charger but only when on hookup via a 3 pin socket.

This is what we do at the moment, it lets us charge bike batteries and make decent coffee off hookup and the inverter usage does not endanger the rest of the van systems, keeps it simple, this could be a bit of a bonus.

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[MitchandJenny]

F

ou can't do that will Gel

Forgot they were gel mate.. I am a flooded lead acid man...
Mitch.

 

[MitchandJenny]

Unless you have a disconnect switch, you need to cover the solar panel prior to disconnecting any battery I would have thought ?!?!?!
And ALWAYS disconnect the NEGATIVE terminals FIRST ! ! ! Then even if you short the positive to earth, NO current can flow..
Good luck.
I'm sure that for you, Eddie is the best bet.....
Mitch.

 

[PORKSTER]

To be honest all this is too much information overload for me but I have read its not good for the batteries or the charging devices to be on constant charge. This is why I only put mine on hook up now and then and also while on hook up I turn the charger off. I have assumed my batteries to be dead several times but they still keep doing the job ..........bet thats thrown spanner in the works I will be buying batteries very soon now lol

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