4 year old batteries not holding charge? change both? (1 Viewer)

[DavidG58]

You say leaving the Alde heating pump on all night, that suggests you leave the boiler on as well which of course uses some power.

Martin

p.s I think 250 pounds is a lot for a 100ah Gel, if they are as originals they will most likely be EXIDE G80/ES900

I think they were Exide and to be honest it was a compete guess at the price, well not total guess I did buy them 4 years ago and thought that was about what I paid

I don't think on our Alde system (again we probably have the only version of Alde ever produced or fitted) the boiler can be turned off, as soon as the system is on we have to have hot water, including right through winter on our drive with room stat sat at 8C, we also maintain a full tank of hot water

you really would have thought that after 4 years I would understand it a little better than I do

 

[DavidG58]

Am about to change mine too for the same reason, not holding a charge, but then they are dated 2012 and the van was standing for 3 years out of use before I bought it.
I have 2 x 110's, is there any reason (assuming they fit) that I can't fit 130's ???

I have researched various threads on here and will use Alpha, and normal lead acid batteries as my electro bloc on a 2005 Burstner is set for those and apparently only a factory can change the settings to allow gel batteries, that said quite happy with the traditional style!

Looking at these -

( sorry for the slight hijack David )

morning Dave

no problem with your hijack, but a thread of your own might get more specific replies

I certainly can't offer any advice or sensible input

 

[DavidG58]

The first thing is voltage when on load is not a good guide to battery condition. You need to let the battery stand idle, disconnected for a few hours to let it stabilise. Even a small load can pull the voltage down even when fully charged.

trouble is surely when fitted in the MH that is exactly what we need, constant small load and more when needed

do you mean disconnected from the mains or from the MH wiring?

not that I am really up to these kind of tests but I am trying to learn

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[funflair]

I think they were Exide and to be honest it was a compete guess at the price, well not total guess I did buy them 4 years ago and thought that was about what I paid

I don't think on our Alde system (again we probably have the only version of Alde ever produced or fitted) the boiler can be turned off as soon as the system is on we have to have hot water, including right through winter on our drive with room stat sat at 8C, we also maintain a full tank of hot water

you really would have thought that after 4 years I would understand it a little better than I do

Room stat at 8C you will still have hot water, but your engine heat exchanger won't work to run the heating (you might not have one, can't remember) if we are on battery I switch our Alde off completely overnight OK might rethink that below say -10C but not been there yet.

Martin

 

[DavidG58]

@funflair no engine heat exchanger as far as we know, there is some funny ancillary exhaust thingie but we think that relates to an additional heater for the engine when cold, but really not sure

 

[funflair]

@funflair no engine heat exchanger as far as we know, there is some funny ancillary exhaust thingie but we think that relates to an additional heater for the engine when cold, but really not sure

OK and you are right about the funny exhaust thingy, getting better.

M

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[John & Joan]

I really do not do technical, it was read on the back of the packet 19V 4.7A continuous the lower the voltage the higher the amps (again read of the packet)

I have looked at both of my HP Laptops Mains chargers and they say 19V 4.7A the same as you are quoting

However the specifications for the laptop say 18.5 V dc @ 3.5 A - 65W The older one has a larger round input than the other but both were on the adapter, I bought from Maplins/Currys. I also bought another type online.

 

[maxi77]

trouble is surely when fitted in the MH that is exactly what we need, constant small load and more when needed

do you mean disconnected from the mains or from the MH wiring?

not that I am really up to these kind of tests but I am trying to learn

I mean neither being on load in any way or being charged, exactly how this is arrange is up to you, I do not know how your system is set up. For most people you can organise yourself to be without 12 volts for a few hours during the day. There are a few good sites on the web about batteries, it may be worth looking at one or two of them.

 

[peterc10]

Morning Sandra

I don't really get the point of the 12V adaptor to me they seem to consume more or less the same amps and cant do anything else, our little inverter when in use has 2 x 13A sockets and 2 x USB, but as I said above cant get a 12V power supply for my new laptop, although I haven't tried very hard, my Maplin one has about 20 connection options but none fit my HP

David, I had no problem finding a 12V adaptor for my HP laptop. Just go onto Amazon and enter 12V HP and then the laptop number in the search bar and I am sure some will come up. Never failed me in the past. And I always use 12V to 5V adaptors for anything USB. Very cheap and very generic.

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[PORKSTER]

Am about to change mine too for the same reason, not holding a charge, but then they are dated 2012 and the van was standing for 3 years out of use before I bought it.
I have 2 x 110's, is there any reason (assuming they fit) that I can't fit 130's ???

I have researched various threads on here and will use Alpha, and normal lead acid batteries as my electro bloc on a 2005 Burstner is set for those and apparently only a factory can change the settings to allow gel batteries, that said quite happy with the traditional style!

Looking at these -

( sorry for the slight hijack David )

Hi Dave these people know about Burstner electrics and its an interesting but worrying read what he has to say but all the info you need is on his site. http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/

 

[DavidG58]

I have looked at both of my HP Laptops Mains chargers and they say 19V 4.7A the same as you are quoting

However the specifications for the laptop say 18.5 V dc @ 3.5 A - 65W The older one has a larger round input than the other but both were on the adapter, I bought from Maplins/Currys. I also bought another type online.

My 12V adaptor is about 18 months old, I have just counted up the end fittings and now see one is missing, almost certainly the one I would need

I do have another totally unused pack, will break into that and have a look, but still not really convinced the saving in power is big enough to worry about compared to a small inverter

 

[DavidG58]

David, I had no problem finding a 12V adaptor for my HP laptop. Just go onto Amazon and enter 12V HP and then the laptop number in the search bar and I am sure some will come up. Never failed me in the past. And I always use 12V to 5V adaptors for anything USB. Very cheap and very generic.

@peterc10 thanks, do you know what the 'real' benefit is over the 12V adaptor compared to a small inverter, seems pretty small from what I can see, although I don't really understand enough to work it out properly

it could all become irrelevant if I sort out a proper inverter while at Vanbitz

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[Lenny HB]

If your charger is not Elektroblock I would suspect a previous owner has changed it as Hymer have been fitting Elektroblock's for over 20 years.
Four years is not long for Gel's I assume they are Exide G80, yes you would have paid £250 each 4 years ago now they are under £150. I would expect them to last at least 6 years some Hymer owners report 9 years out of them.
I assume your voltage reading of 12.2 - 12.4 v is under load so they may not be that flat. 12.35v off load is 50% charged for a gel.
You really need to separate them and run a proper test on them and ensure they are being charged properly, as said the gel setting should charge them up to 14.3v and hold that voltage for 8 hours if this is not done they will only get an 80% charge.

Providing they are being charged correctly if would be worth running an initial test on them in place.

Ensure they are fully charged, turn the charger off and leave them to settle for an hour then measure the voltage should be in 12.85V+
Now turn on some lights and equipment until drawing 10 amps and leave on for 4 hours then turn off the loads and leave to settle for at least half an hour voltage should read 12.65v. (75% charged).
Repeat above which should take them down to 50% charged should read 12.35v.
Repeat again which will take them down to 25% charged should read 12.0v.

If you get results similar to above there is nothing wrong with your batteries, the figures I have given are for Gel batteries, wet cells and AGM's are different.

 

[peterc10]

@peterc10 thanks, do you know what the 'real' benefit is over the 12V adaptor compared to a small inverter, seems pretty small from what I can see, although I don't really understand enough to work it out properly

it could all become irrelevant if I sort out a proper inverter while at Vanbitz

If you use the inverter it will take 12V DC and convert it into 240V AC and waste some power in doing so (in the form of heat). Then when you plug your 240V adaptor in it will take that 240V AC and convert it into 18V or 19V DC (voltage depends upon what laptop you have), again wasting power and warming up. Much more efficient to get an adaptor that will take 12V DC and convert it to 18V or 19V DC.

Same, only even more inefficient, with USB products, which run on 5V DC.

We have an inverter, but only used for drying Angela's hair. Everything else (even the electric shaver) runs of the 12V system.

 

[Hellski]

If your charger is not Elektroblock I would suspect a previous owner has changed it as Hymer have been fitting Elektroblock's for over 20 years.
Four years is not long for Gel's I assume they are Exide G80, yes you would have paid £250 each 4 years ago now they are under £150. I would expect them to last at least 6 years some Hymer owners report 9 years out of them.
I assume your voltage reading of 12.2 - 12.4 v is under load so they may not be that flat. 12.35v off load is 50% charged for a gel.
You really need to separate them and run a proper test on them and ensure they are being charged properly, as said the gel setting should charge them up to 14.3v and hold that voltage for 8 hours if this is not done they will only get an 80% charge.

Providing they are being charged correctly if would be worth running an initial test on them in place.

Ensure they are fully charged, turn the charger off and leave them to settle for an hour then measure the voltage should be in 12.85V+
Now turn on some lights and equipment until drawing 10 amps and leave on for 4 hours then turn off the loads and leave to settle for at least half an hour voltage should read 12.65v. (75% charged).
Repeat above which should take them down to 50% charged should read 12.35v.
Repeat again which will take them down to 25% charged should read 12.0v.

If you get results similar to above there is nothing wrong with your batteries, the figures I have given are for Gel batteries, wet cells and AGM's are different.

Really informative thread, thank you @DavidG58.

In reference to @Lenny HB very useful post, I would and I'm sure others be extremely grateful if you could provide similar tests that would be relevant to wet cells & AGM batteries?

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[pappajohn]

4 years and not holding charge !
time to renew AS A PAIR.
capacity (ah) difference between batteries doesn't matter (10ah battery plus 90ah battery = 100ah battery).... but age does.
the better of the old pair will still pull down a new one to its capacity.

 

[DavidG58]

many thanks @Lenny HB

I will do this in the morning, Martin @funflair suggested similar

I think you have 'guessed' my batteries perfectly, good news that they are now cheaper, if needed

Now I have fitted LED's everywhere not exactly sure if I can get a constant 10A draw, but the new awning light alone is over 3A, the extractor will be a few and we still have a fluorescent left, will see what the whole lot together give, might surprise me

edit, I will confirm the electrobloc or not in the morning, I have had 2 companies come to do work on it and say OH! not seen one of those, this is why the solar is not linked through the controller, or the LPG our MH was a demonstrator at Hymer north west (Preston) for nearly three years before being sold to its first owner, we presume the electrics were changed then, but no idea why they were not kept as built, although as I have said before I am sure ours was a prototype, one of the very first face lift S class built in 2006/7

 

[Lenny HB]

Really informative thread, thank you @DavidG58.

In reference to @Lenny HB very useful post, I would and I'm sure others be extremely grateful if you could provide similar tests that would be relevant to wet cells & AGM batteries?

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[Hellski]

You've just got to love this forum, big thank you to @Lenny HB

 

[pappajohn]

View attachment 143634

looking at that chart there appears to be no gain between all three battery types.
while the Gel and AGM have a higher 100% voltage there's still only 0.5v between 100% and 50% charge.
i appreciate the GEL has a deeper discharge rate than the others but the difference is going to be minuscule.

 

[Lenny HB]

Now I have fitted LED's everywhere not exactly sure if I can get a constant 10A draw, but the new awning light alone is over 3A, the extractor will be a few and we still have a fluorescent left, will see what the whole lot together give, might surprise me

Use 5 amps for twice as long, the idea it to load the batteries to 25% of their capacity. 5 - 10 amps is a typical load in a Motorhome so it makes sense to load them as they would be in operating conditions.

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[funflair]

Use 5 amps for twice as long, the idea it to load the batteries to 25% of their capacity. 5 - 10 amps is a typical load in a Motorhome so it makes sense to load them as they would be in operating conditions.

And make sure the solar isn't charging at the same time

Martin

 

[funflair]

looking at that chart there appears to be no gain between all three battery types.
while the Gel and AGM have a higher 100% voltage there's still only 0.5v between 100% and 50% charge.
i appreciate the GEL has a deeper discharge rate than the others but the difference is going to be minuscule.

Its even closer than you think at 0.05 volt between Gel and AGM, there is only a difference because the Gel's start off at a higher voltage, and you are right that alone is not an argument for Gel batteries but there are other reasons to fit them.

Martin

 

[Lenny HB]

And make sure the solar isn't charging at the same time

Martin

Yep forgot to mention that. Unplug the solar panels or cover the panels.

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[DavidG58]

And make sure the solar isn't charging at the same time

Martin

providing it is not sunny is that effectively the same, I would rather not go disconnecting things, and don't really even want to go up a ladder and chuck my coat over the panel, but I could if it is critical

 

[funflair]

providing it is not sunny is that effectively the same, I would rather not go disconnecting things, and don't really even want to go up a ladder and chuck my coat over the panel, but I could if it is critical

Do the test in the dark

Martin

 

[MitchandJenny]

Hi Brewery Dave..
I had a quick squint at the batteries you mentioned and they say it is a multi purpose battery and can crank at
800 amps to start a vehicle ! ! !
That doesn't sound like a proper leasure battery to me..
Doubtless others will add more..
Mitch.

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[Minxy]

it could all become irrelevant if I sort out a proper inverter while at Vanbitz

Having a different inverter fitted will still mean the 12v is unnecessarily being converted to 240v then back down to 19v which creates some loss of power, and there are also losses through the cables too, so a dedicated 12v connector for your laptop is much better. Also remember that if you travel and charge stuff at the same time from your 12v system you won't charge up your hab batteries as much ... the alternator can only produce a set amount of output.

 

[maxi77]

View attachment 143634

Remembering these values are only valid after the batteries have rested for some hours with neither charge or discharge. Any load what so ever will reduce the voltage seen noticeably, my 3 metres of led strip reduce the voltage seen by about 1/4 volt even with the charger on.

Some years ago Mr Sterling of Sterling battery chargers used to say that the best value per amp/hr was flooded lead acid. The only reasons for choosing another type were being spill proof or something similar

 

[DavidG58]

been doing some tests today

08:00 on charge 13.7V

turned power off (actually removed hook up lead to be 100% sure)

09:00 12.7V seemed fairly good

turned on lights till I got to 10.1A consumption

didn't bother to cover solar as so grey today cant be doing enough output to make any difference

13:00 12.0V not so good?

turned everything off, left hook up off

14:00 12.3V

put hook up back on as didn't see the point in repeating that tomorrow, something is not right

forgot to check the volts but noticed 44A going in when reconnected

photos of batteries and electickery bit

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