Your thoughts around giving to much information.

[buttons]

Stopped overnight in Citi Europe last night and got chatting to a guy this morning whilst walking the dog (It was freezing).
He had just travelled up from Spain and used the tolls, which he explained was not a normal experience for him. He said that at the auto booth he was shown as class three ( Over 3 metres high and over 3.5t). He pressed the button to see if it could be changed to class 2, (as many do I'm sure...I do) expecting the control centre to change to class 2:Camping car. Apparently control centre asked for vehicle registration, which he gave. Was then informed records show him excess 3.5t. Was then required to pay class 3.
Further explains that he had obtained an emission zone sticker for France costing 5E before his trip, as told this was required by him by Autotrail club.
So I think. Is it the case that if and when you apply for such emission zone sticker for France, I assume supplying copy of Registration document as is required for German emission sticker, that your vehicle details are then shown on the Auto route toll database showing your vehicle weight thus can be challenged by the control room when seeking change to class 2.
Just a thought for those who challenge the control centre when shown class 3 if you are thinking of getting French emission sticker

Sorry I'm a bit slow on the uptake, according to French motorway laws is your vehicle classified as class 2 or class 3 toll rating. If you have been overcharged then why not claim the over payment back. Am I missing something.?

 

[PJGWiltshire]

Sorry I'm a bit slow on the uptake, according to French motorway laws is your vehicle classified as class 2 or class 3 toll rating. If you have been overcharged then why not claim the over payment back. Am I missing something.?

No please read original post again. Its a case of a guy trying to be down classed but there appears to be shared information within the French network of some UK vehicles that lead to information being available that enabled the French toll booth control centre to challenge the request.

The post is nothing to do with the ethics of making the request just the possible chance that the French authorities are using info gleamed from the emission zone applications to the toll usage when asked for class downgrading grading

 

[buttons]

No please read original post again. Its a case of a guy trying to be down classed but there appears to be shared information within the French network of some UK vehicles that lead to information being available that enabled the French toll booth control centre to challenge the request.
The post is nothing to do with the ethics of making the request just the possible chance that the French authorities are using info gleamed from the emission zone applications to the toll usage when asked for class downgrading grading

Simple question is, will down grading to a lower class be a criminal act in French law. If yes then surely the French authorities are entitled to use any means possible to prevent you from breaking their laws. Again am I missing something?

 

[filopastry]

Don't think you are missing anything @buttons

 

[Puddleduck]

We are registered at 3650 kg (but weigh less than 3500kg generally) and are under 3m high we were charged classe 2 in France at the automatic barriers. In Italy it was hit and miss which class we were charged. We have both French and German "clean air" stickers.

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[Speve]

In Spain at manned booths they only charge our van as car and that’s with car trailer behind.

 

[gus-lopez]

In Spain at manned booths they only charge our van as car and that’s with car trailer behind.

& motorhomes are the same as cars as well

 

[davejen]

Stop worrying it will be free after Bre*t!
Cheers, Dave

 

[JockandRita]

Whilst I may agree with your sentiment, it is your choice of vehicle, their choice of charges are there no obligations to use their motorways, if you don't agree with their pricing scales, and maybe I also agree there, you can use other routes, but to use their services is to agree to their terms and conditions, one cannot pick and choose which terms one agrees with, should your breakdown on their routes you would, I assume, wish to use their breakdown services for which had you not paid the correct fees, you would probably have no right to.

Ooh, aren't you a self righteous goody two shoes? If your halo gets any bigger you'll be able to jump through it.

How can a 5.5T camping car under 3 x metres in height, but with six wheels, be classed a Class Two, but another camping car under 3 x metres in height, and also with six wheels be classed as a Class 4? You give me a reasonable explanation for that one, and I'll be more inclined to try and understand the reasoning behind it.
In the UK, if you operate a 44 tonne articulated vehicle with a tri axle tractor unit, and a tri axle trailer, you pay a substantially less RFL for that vehicle, compared to similar vehicles with less axles. The reason being, is because they are more road friendly, due to the number of axles, thereby spreading the load more evenly across the road surface.

BTW, if you breakdown on the Peage, it doesn't matter what vehicle you are driving, they have you by the short and curlies, and you have no choice but to accept the recovery services they provide, to remove you to a place of safety or repair. You are then presented with the bill for that pleasure, which you may, or may not be able to claim back, from your own chosen breakdown service, which you have already subscribed to, but whom are not permitted to recover you from the Peage.
There is no "service provided" as you put it, in relation to the toll fees paid. You breakdown, they charge you to be recovered, regardless. End of.

In Spain at manned booths they only charge our van as car and that’s with car trailer behind.

& motorhomes are the same as cars as well

Which seems to be a very fair system, and one that encourages drivers to stay clear of the towns and cities, thereby reducing emissions.

In Italy, Slovenia, and Croatia (when I was last there anyway), you were either under 3.5T, (vignette) or over, however, the toll charges for being over 3.5T were very reasonable.
As stated in a previous post, I don't mind paying a reasonable rate/toll........................as I have done in many other countries.

Regards,

Jock.

 

[Speve]

& motorhomes are the same as cars as well

Yes I call our Hymer B678DL a van sorry for any confusion

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[filopastry]

@JockandRita Nope ... never said I was a goody two shoes, nor do I have a halo read below.

Not saying I'm an angel, far from it, nut I don't tell everyone what I do .... just a though

Ooh, aren't you a self righteous goody two shoes? If your halo gets any bigger you'll be able to jump through it.

How can a 5.5T camping car under 3 x metres in height, but with six wheels, be classed a Class Two, but another camping car under 3 x metres in height, and also with six wheels be classed as a Class 4? You give me a reasonable explanation for that one,

My explanation is simply. It is their motorway and their rules, they only have to declare their conditions, it is your choice to use their facilities. They build, repair, maintain the services and decide what charges to make. You are not obliged to use the facilities. What you or others do, or do not do, in the UK is of no relevance to France their rules or their road network and service charges. Who are we to try and dictate what charges there should be for any services, if we find them too expensive, do not use them.

It comes down to personal choices, I choose to debate the subject not the person, I have made no personal attack on you yet you choose to attack me personally rather than the subject, and that, in itself speaks volumes.

Life is full of rules, I, like you and others, don't like them all, I then have the choice to conform or not.

 

[JockandRita]

@JockandRita Nope ... never said I was a goody two shoes, nor do I have a halo read below.




My explanation is simply. It is their motorway and their rules, they only have to declare their conditions, it is your choice to use their facilities. They build, repair, maintain the services and decide what charges to make. You are not obliged to use the facilities. What you or others do, or do not do, in the UK is of no relevance to France their rules or their road network and service charges.

It comes down to personal choices, I choose to debate the subject not the person, I have made no personal attack on you yet you choose to attack me personally rather than the subject, and that, in itself speaks volumes.

Life is full of rules, I, like you and others, don't like them all, I then have the choice to conform or not.

Yep, and as is often the case, (like the old proverb) "It's not what you say, but the way you say it".

Endex.

Jock.

 

[SpeedyDux]

It appears to me that the vehicle classification by class for the autoroute peage in France is actually based on a Regulation made by the French government in 2001, not the terms and conditions of individual motorway operating companies. Therefore they have a consistent national system.

Anyway it is all nicely explained here (in French of course) but on page 2 there are pictures to make it very easy to follow:

https://www.autoroutes.fr/FCKeditor/UserFiles/File/ASFA CLASSE VEHICULE BD.pdf

 

[SpeedyDux]

In the side notes it lists things that do not count towards the vehicle height for classification purposes:

any load carried on the roof of a vehicle or its trailer
accessories including antennas, roof boxes or roof racks, light bars (e.g. orange rotating lights), taxi signs, parabolic dishes, skylights or roof vents, and solar panels

Things that do count towards the vehicle height for classification purposes:

Elements added to the base vehicle, including habitable containers (I suppose this means e.g. demountable camper on a pick-up truck) air conditioners, or refrigeration equipment.

Roof mounted air conditioning seems relevant to some Funsters because this will count towards the over 3m height and may put them in Classe 3. Everything else mounted on the MH roof should be OK. But beware the unmanned toll booths! You may still need to argue with the control room person that you should be charged at the Classe 2 rate for camping-cars below 3m height.

 

[filopastry]

*PTAC = Masse en charge maximale admissible, sur les cartes grises émises après juin 2004 (arrêté du 22.09.03 du Ministère de l’Équipement, des Transports, du Logement, du Tourisme et de la Mer). Se reporter au code F2, mentionné sur la carte grise.

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[JockandRita]

It appears to me that the vehicle classification by class for the autoroute peage in France is actually based on a Regulation made by the French government in 2001, not the terms and conditions of individual motorway operating companies. Therefore they have a consistent national system.

Anyway it is all nicely explained here (in French of course) but on page 2 there are pictures to make it very easy to follow:

https://www.autoroutes.fr/FCKeditor/UserFiles/File/ASFA CLASSE VEHICULE BD.pdf

Not quite @SpeedyDux, ie, Les camping-cars de plus de 3 mètres de hauteur.
Err No, that's not us. We are under 3 metres.

Les poids lourds à 3 essieux et plus.
Err No, that's not us either, as we are not commercial

Les autocars à 3 essieux > et plus.
And yet another Err No, as that is definitely not us.................................as we are not an Autocar either, (no sh1t Sherlock ) but yet we will still be charged as a Classe 4.

Come on @jetlag03, you found @SpeedyDux's post informative, so where do you place our Camping Car, cos it's clearly not a commercial vehicle, ie, for goods purposes, nor is it an Autocar, ie, for the carrying of fare paying passengers?

Regards,

Jock.

 

[Stroppy Bird]

Not quite @SpeedyDux, ie, Les camping-cars de plus de 3 mètres de hauteur.
Err No, that's not us. We are under 3 metres.

Les poids lourds à 3 essieux et plus.
Err No, that's not us either, as we are not commercial

Les autocars à 3 essieux > et plus.
And yet another Err No, as that is definitely not us.................................as we are not an Autocar either, (no sh1t Sherlock ) but yet we will still be charged as a Classe 4.

Come on @jetlag03, you found @SpeedyDux's post informative, so where do you place our Camping Car, cos it's clearly not a commercial vehicle, ie, for goods purposes, nor is it an Autocar, ie, for the carrying of fare paying passengers?

Regards,

Jock.

Do you have 3 axles and are over 3.5t?

If so that might explain it as it looks like class 4 may have a bit of a catch all in it

poids lourds, autocars et autres véhicules à 3 essieux et plus - heavy goods, buses and other vehicles with 3 or more axles.

It then goes on to explain it as 'a vehicle with 3 or more axles and a height of over 3m or a GVW of over 3.5t

I think the pictures may only be examples and not a definitive list.

This may or may not be the correct interpretation, but could well be the way the toll operator that wanted to charge you class 4 interpreted it.

At the moment it's not something we have to worry about as we are definitely class 2, but the next van we're looking at getting may well need uprating putting it into the class 3 category. Most trips away necessitate the use of toll roads as we both still work so have limited time away and so like to get to an area and then tour around that.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Not quite @SpeedyDux, ie, Les camping-cars de plus de 3 mètres de hauteur.
Err No, that's not us. We are under 3 metres.

Les poids lourds à 3 essieux et plus.
Err No, that's not us either, as we are not commercial

Les autocars à 3 essieux > et plus.
And yet another Err No, as that is definitely not us.................................as we are not an Autocar either, (no sh1t Sherlock ) but yet we will still be charged as a Classe 4.

Come on @jetlag03, you found @SpeedyDux's post informative, so where do you place our Camping Car, cos it's clearly not a commercial vehicle, ie, for goods purposes, nor is it an Autocar, ie, for the carrying of fare paying passengers?

Regards,

Jock.

@Stroppy Bird gets a Gold Star - you are caught by Classe 4:

"Véhicules à 3 essieux et plus ayant une hauteur supérieure ou égale à 3 mètres ou un PTAC supérieur à 3,5 tonnes"

That download leaflet lacks a pretty picture of a 3 axle camping-car over 3.5 tonne GVW but the illustrator must have run out of space on page 2.

The biggest Peage trap is that a camping-car in Classe 2 with a trailer stays in Classe 2; but a camping-car in Classe 3 becomes Classe 4 if it has a trailer.
I wonder if that catches some British MHers.

 

[PJGWiltshire]

MY god JIM shut this thread down before there is a war.
I only posted to point out that big brother may be watching so fellow freeloaders on the tolls can get class 2 without issue but maybe a problem if they apply for emission zone badges.

To all our fellow Funsters Peace and Goodwill over the forthcoming festive period

 

[JockandRita]

@Stroppy Bird gets a Gold Star

She certainly does @SpeedyDux.

Do you have 3 axles and are over 3.5t?

You are bang on the button @Stroppy Bird. Nice one. Which brings me back to my original point, ie, how can a 5.5T 3 x axled MH possibly be in the same toll classification as a 44T semi axled Truck? It's an absolute nonsense..........................but as @jetlag03 points out, those are the rules, which I have been aware of for the last 13 x years now however, I still think that particular rule is a nonsense, compared to how other countries classify vehicles for toll purposes.

@PGWiltshire. For my part, I apologise but I do thank you for you initial post highlighting a possible issue
Whilst the best I could get from the French was a Criti 5, (Grey) plakette, I did manage to secure a Class 4 (Green) from the Germans.
That'll confuse them if they cross refer details, or exchange data.

Cheers,

Jock.

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[filopastry]

She certainly does @SpeedyDux.


You are bang on the button @Stroppy Bird. Nice one. Which brings me back to my original point, ie, how can a 5.5T 3 x axled MH possibly be in the same toll classification as a 44T semi axled Truck? It's an absolute nonsense..........................but as @jetlag03 points out, those are the rules, which I have been aware of for the last 13 x years now however, I still think that particular rule is a nonsense, compared to how other countries classify vehicles for toll purposes.



@PGWiltshire. For my part, I apologise but I do thank you for you initial post highlighting a possible issue
Whilst the best I could get from the French was a Criti 5, (Grey) plakette, I did manage to secure a Class 4 (Green) from the Germans.
That'll confuse them if they cross refer details, or exchange data.

Cheers,

Jock.

"I still think that particular rule is a nonsense, compared to how other countries classify vehicles for toll purposes." ... irrelevant, their autoroute their rules, no-one is obliged to use the services ... simply conform, what other services in other countries do is nothing to do with what happens in France. Picking and choosing which rules one prefers to accept depending on ones own position is fraught with dangers. The pictogram is very clear and easy to follow even for those who speak little or no French. Stamping feet, throwing temper tantrums, name calling, referencing against other countries ... irrelevant. My original comment mentioned that I am astounded how honest people will openly promote fraudulent use of the peage in France, my view has only been re-enforced by the comments. You want a road system that works, pay for it ... or we all end up with no services, but then some may say that's OK cos they'll stay in Germany or other countries where they agree with the toll systems.

The peage video systems are now being used to follow up all who have used the routes in recent weeks without paying and demanding payment ... oh such deep joy

ENDEX

 

[JockandRita]

"I still think that particular rule is a nonsense, compared to how other countries classify vehicles for toll purposes." ... irrelevant, their autoroute their rules, no-one is obliged to use the services ... simply conform, what other services in other countries do is nothing to do with what happens in France. Picking and choosing which rules one prefers to accept depending on ones own position is fraught with dangers. The pictogram is very clear and easy to follow even for those who speak little or no French. Stamping feet, throwing temper tantrums, name calling, referencing against other countries ... irrelevant. My original comment mentioned that I am astounded how honest people will openly promote fraudulent use of the peage in France, my view has only been re-enforced by the comments. You want a road system that works, pay for it ... or we all end up with no services, but then some may say that's OK cos they'll stay in Germany or other countries where they agree with the toll systems.

Give it a rest, eh?

Jock.

 

[webby1]

You can instantly check various vehicle details on the government MOT site
https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-status

Certainly it gives weight details, which is why I stopped trying to pass ours off as 3500 so as to get a vignette rather than a GO Box in the relevant countries

 

[filopastry]

@JockandRita if you read my first post No24 again it is clear that I never said I was an angel, nor that I never "played the game" if and when I do I stay "stum". I simply stated that I find it astounding that some many folks are eager to declare openly what they do. It was you that made it personal, I have always debated the subject and not the person, I do not know you so could not make comments on your angelic or otherwise demeanor or conduct.

This is my last comment on the subject as I suspect you are taking it personally and to heart and that your last comment "give it a rest, eh?" implies that you accept there is not justification for false declarations.

 

[JockandRita]

This is my last comment on the subject as I suspect you are taking it personally and to heart and that your last comment "give it a rest, eh?" implies that you accept there is not justification for false declarations.

No, it implies that I am getting pi@@ed off with it all.

Endex (see, no need to shout).

Jock.

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