Uprating Weight - Quick Question re Rear Axle (1 Viewer)

[tonyl]

We need a weight upgrade on our van, so that we can carry a couple of bikes in our garage, so our immediate requirements are relatively small, certainly less than the 240kg we had in hand in the rear axle when we had it weighed on a weigh bridge. Only had a few kg overall, so the upgrade is necessary.

I have added air assistance to the rear suspension of our Rapido 666 (standard Fiat chassis, with 15" wheels and 109 rated tyres) and have paid JR for the report/plate, etc. Currently plated at 3500kg.

I now need to send this off to DVLA to get an update to 3850kg on the paperwork.

I was anticipating that the paperwork JR returned would have an unchanged rear axle weight of 2000kg in accordance with my instructions. However, he has supplied paperwork stating 2250kg.

I know that with my current tyres I can't go beyond 2000kg but next time I will probably buy 112 rated tyres (which would give 2240kg potentially, I believe).

My dilemma is that, if I send this paperwork off and use his supplied sticker, will I be in trouble at a roadside inspection (home or abroad) because the tyres aren't capable of supporting the plated weight, even if the ACTUAL measured weight is within the 2000kg capacity of the current tyres? Could this be an MoT issue?

I suppose I need to decide whether to:

1. Go back to JR and get him to supply a plate with 2000kg and use this for the DVLA process, though the V5C doesn't show rear axle weight anyway (presumably DVLA record it somewhere though).
2. Use JR's current paperwork with DVLA but get a plate made with 2000kg on it and use that until I buy new tyres, then use JR's plate (actually just a sticker made on a label machine).
3. Buy new tyres now
4. Don't worry about it but make sure rear axle doesn't exceed 2000k until I buy new tyres

If I do anything other than 1. do I need to be concerned about the 10kg discrepancy between the 112 rated tyres and a plate showing 2250kg?

Any advice gratefully received.

Tony

 

[pandas]

A personal view, not technical/professional, I would go for new tyres as yours are near the weight limit anyhow. If your tread is good sell the old ones on on this site or ebay - I did and it was easy with a number of offers (you don't need to wrap them up!). Look at M+S tyres if going for new as the grip is so much better and it will make it all feel it's been worth it.

 

[Lenny HB]

You could go with option 4 but I get the correct plate (2240). If stopped for a weight check they are not going to check the tyre load rating however if you were involved in a serious accident with serious injury they might get checked.

Another option would be to buy 2 new tyres for the rear for now, bear in mind if you carry spare, tyres on the same axle should be of the same rating.

 

[Hettie's Crew]

This is a good example why I chose not to use JR. You, @tonyl appear to know exactly what you’re talking about and understand the issues regarding tyres/axles/chassis’s etc.
JR however, doesn’t and I fear there will be a lot of JR’s customers that are running around with incorrect weight ratings thinking all is fine because JR approved it.
I think he is dangerous and should not be trusted.
SV Tech cost us twice as much but their technical understanding is leagues ahead of JR.
I’d buy the correct tyres and get him to supply new paperwork with 2240 for the rear axle.

 

[TinaLes]

I would do as suggested, get the rear axel plated at 2240KGs and change the tyres to the higher rated ones. I cannot see the point of using JR, and having air assist on rear axel without going up as high as technically possible. After all you then have the option to run at lower axel weight should you wish, but also have the comfort of knowing that you are well inside the legal limits, should you get stopped and weighed.
Incidently what contact details did you use for JR please?
Good luck happy travels.
Les

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[tonyl]

Thanks one and all.

I was just trying to get a decent life out of the existing tyres in not going to 2240kg straight away. There are less than 3 years old, with enough tread for at least another 10k miles. I suppose as JR has done what he's done, I have to go back to him anyway and get him to correct it. It's now gone on long enough that I never want to go through the process again, so I might as well bite the bullet and shell out for new tyres and get it done once and for all. I hope there is time to sort out the paperwork before we go need the extra capacity to go away in February.

In instructing him, what I said was: "As discussed, I want to upgrade the GVM to 3850 kg, with axle weights and other details unchanged." I'm not sure what part of that is open to misinterpretation, but there we are.

If you want to contact him @TinaL his email address is truckcon@outlook.com

The next question is which brand of 112 rated tyre to choose. There is plenty of advice elsewhere but I'm tempted by Michelin Agilis CrossClimate as they are 3 peaks rated rather than simply M&S. Anyone think this is a bad idea?

Tony

 

[Wagoneer]

In instructing him, what I said was: "As discussed, I want to upgrade the GVM to 3850 kg, with axle weights and other details unchanged." I'm not sure what part of that is open to misinterpretation, but there we are.
Tony

JR probably thought he was being helpful uprating the rear axle load, as that is what most people desire. He obviously had on record your tyre details with the tyre index, in which case he should have queried this aspect with you or advised you needed to increase the tyre index of the rear tyres. Don't know why he's gone for 2250kg rather than the normal 2240kg.

Independent tyre experts advise choosing a tyre index 10% higher than actually required. So a tyre index of 115 would be preferable compared to a 112. That's what I do to improve the overall factor of safety.

 

[tonyl]

As far as I can tell, there isn't a suitable tyre available with a 115 or higher rating for 15" wheels on a Fiat MH chassis. I may be wrong of course.

Tony

 

[Lenny HB]

The next question is which brand of 112 rated tyre to choose. There is plenty of advice elsewhere but I'm tempted by Michelin Agilis CrossClimate as they are 3 peaks rated rather than simply M&S. Anyone think this is a bad idea?

Have a look at Continental FourSeason 2 and VanContact 4Season, both have the Alpin rating. The FourSeason 2 has a slightly more agressive tread pattern German manufacturers like N & B fit them as standard. Conti's tend to give a softer ride than Michelin's.

 

[Lenny HB]

As far as I can tell, there isn't a suitable tyre available with a 115 or higher rating for 15" wheels on a Fiat MH chassis. I may be wrong of course.

Tony

My last van I uprated the tyres on I used Hankook van tyres I know they were M&S but can't remember if they were Alpine rated.

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[Boringfrog]

Thanks one and all.

I was just trying to get a decent life out of the existing tyres in not going to 2240kg straight away. There are less than 3 years old, with enough tread for at least another 10k miles. I suppose as JR has done what he's done, I have to go back to him anyway and get him to correct it. It's now gone on long enough that I never want to go through the process again, so I might as well bite the bullet and shell out for new tyres and get it done once and for all. I hope there is time to sort out the paperwork before we go need the extra capacity to go away in February.

In instructing him, what I said was: "As discussed, I want to upgrade the GVM to 3850 kg, with axle weights and other details unchanged." I'm not sure what part of that is open to misinterpretation, but there we are.

If you want to contact him @TinaL his email address is truckcon@outlook.com

The next question is which brand of 112 rated tyre to choose. There is plenty of advice elsewhere but I'm tempted by Michelin Agilis CrossClimate as they are 3 peaks rated rather than simply M&S. Anyone think this is a bad idea?

Tony

I don't think the CrossClimate are motorhome specific, and looking at them, I think they'll be noisy.

 

[Hettie's Crew]

We went for the VanContact 4Season and are very pleased with them, softer ride and quieter than the Campers they replaced.
They look virtually identical to the Camper but have the alpine, snowflake and M&S which the camper doesn’t. They can be inflated to 75psi if needed, though ours are much lower than that.
Page 74 onwards for van/camper tyres, the 4Season’s are page 78.
https://blobs.continental-tires.com...998ef8b3/download-technical-databook-data.pdf

 

[tonyl]

Excellent. I hadn't looked at noise ratings, though a bit of tyre noise might help to drown out the sundry rattles I have failed to track down. I remember my dad being so obsessed with rattles in the car that he would make my mum stuff the aspirin/paracetamol bottle with cotton wool to stop it making a noise in the glove box. Obviously never a motorhome owner!

 

[bellabee]

We almost gave up the will to live, when we tried to use JR to up-rate our van to 3850. He made error after error, and after months of to-ing and fro-ing, we finally got our money back from him, and used SV Tech, who did the job in 2 week. It was only a paper exercise, and luckily we knew exactly what we wanted.
On his first attempt, he gave us a front axle load of 1850, although our van is factory-fitted with Goldschmitt springs on the front axle, already giving a permissible load of 2000. As most of our available extra capacity was on the front axle, he was effectively reducing our ability to load it.
When we pointed out to him that each axle already had a permissible load of 2000, he added those amounts together and sent us a certificate and label for 4000 kg.
Again, we sent it back to him, explaining exactly what we needed ie 2000kg on each axle, but a max of 3850 kg.
The next certificate he sent us, had the correct weights, but he'd made an error with our registration number.
Back it went to him, and we then received a certificate with the correct registration number but an error in the VIN Number. It was at this point that we bailed out.
On each one, he had also made an error with the train weight, but as we had no intentions of towing, we just let that slip, as the job already appeared to be too complex for him.
I'm in agreement with @Hettie's Crew . Best to use SV Tech, get it right and know you're safe.

 

[Lenny HB]

Last van I used SV Tech only took 3 days and they know what they are doing.
My mate just used JR because all he wanted was the MAM raisng to 4800 from 4500 he didn't want to increase the axle weights. When he spoke to SV they were insistent that he had to fit rear air higher rated tyres and new wheels, they didn't accept hat by just increasing the MAM he could put more stuff at the front giving him the extrta he needed at the rear.
JR is OK if you know exactly what you want and tell him in words of one syllable.

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[pandas]

We went for the VanContact 4Season and are very pleased with them, softer ride and quieter than the Campers they replaced.
They look virtually identical to the Camper but have the alpine, snowflake and M&S which the camper doesn’t. They can be inflated to 75psi if needed, though ours are much lower than that.
Page 74 onwards for van/camper tyres, the 4Season’s are page 78.
https://blobs.continental-tires.com...998ef8b3/download-technical-databook-data.pdf

I have Michelin Agilis Camping 225/75 R16CP 116Q M+S not three peaks though
which were supplied with the new Hymer as 'suitable and legal' tyres for Germany in winter months as the manufacture was before January 2018. 'Recommended tyre pressure for the rear (single) axle of a motorhome running on the MICHELIN Agilis Camping is 80 PSI (5,5bar) and for twin axle 69 PSI (4,75bar)'.Not travel enough to understand how I feel about them yet but the tyres on our previous were brilliant - Continental Vanco 2 four season 2 225/75 R16 118R C M+S

 

[jollyrodger]

Have recently used SvTech on my Hymer already fitted with 225/70r/15 c
It had been uprated previously in 2000 (Drinkwater Ltd) but no paperwork ,but a job number could just be seen on the old plate.
Vin plate still 3200 kg . Which it obviously wasn't.
I added air suspension anyway .
The V5 had : revinue weight Blank
and dvla where clueless.
The guy who started SvTech just happens to be called Drinkwater .and the phone area code the same
Long story short a phone call or two and all sorted certificates all paperwork and plate within the week from SvTech now at 3850 kg /5250 kg
£165
DVLA five weeks to send back V5

 

[Lenny HB]

DVLA five weeks to send back V5

You must have got them when they were working efficiently, when I did my last van took them over 4 months to get it right.

 

[Hettie's Crew]

Tyre choice to up rate weight is more difficult when you have 15inch wheels.

 

[tonyl]

Live and learn, I suppose. I thought JR would be fine as I knew exactly what I wanted and that was a mistake.

This morning's examination of JR paperwork shows that the report he has supplied is correct in all it says, so should be suitable for DVLA. It doesn't have the individual axle weights, simply a statement that the 'enhanced GVM is equal to or less than the summation of all axle design weights'. So at least i can start the DVLA clock ticking.

I've requested an amended laminated certificate and chassis plate from him but, once I have changed the tyres for 112, I will at least be in the right ballpark even if it doesn't arrive before we go away.

With hindsight SV Tech would probably have been a better choice. However, while they answered my initial email quickly with what looked like a 'cut and paste' reply, they didn't bother to respond to a few questions I sent them some months ago. I like stuff in writing, so prefer to deal with people by email rather than telephone and maybe they didn't like that.

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[jollyrodger]

Live and learn, I suppose. I thought JR would be fine as I knew exactly what I wanted and that was a mistake.

This morning's examination of JR paperwork shows that the report he has supplied is correct in all it says, so should be suitable for DVLA. It doesn't have the individual axle weights, simply a statement that the 'enhanced GVM is equal to or less than the summation of all axle design weights'. So at least i can start the DVLA clock ticking.

I've requested an amended laminated certificate and chassis plate from him but, once I have changed the tyres for 112, I will at least be in the right ballpark even if it doesn't arrive before we go away.

With hindsight SV Tech would probably have been a better choice. However, while they answered my initial email quickly with what looked like a 'cut and paste' reply, they didn't bother to respond to a few questions I sent them some months ago. I like stuff in writing, so prefer to deal with people by email rather than telephone and maybe they didn't like that.

Mine was being sold on behalf of a widow so not a lot of info except a recite from 2017 showing he paid a whole lot more than me some months before

SvTech
When I spoke to them re Drinkwater Ltd job number .
They traced it as their CEO is called Drinkwater . And started SvTech.
Told me when and by whom upgrade was for ( this also explained my private plate back in 2000)
Told them exactly what I wanted ,sent pics of tyre sizes load ratio's etc ,vin plate as requested .
They confirmed by email and phone due to the fact I was about to go on my travels and sent all Doc's and plate with the updates ,before I had paid for them ,trust.
Paid for when I had data / signal down in Spain a couple of days later

I did the DVLA business when I got back as I expected it to be a shambles

Horses for courses

 

[Youlostoo]

As an ex Transport Manager and Member of the Institute of Road Transport Engineers now retired, I contacted JR regarding up plating. He quoted increased gross and axle weights which seemed to me to be way above what would be safe for loading and brake efficiency. I then contacted SV who agreed with me. SV have spent many thousands of pounds conducting loading tests in various configurations to back up their calculations. JR apparently has not, and appears to just be winging it. I went with SV and would strongly advise anyone else to do the same.