Schaudt EBL99 - Disabling Charger Functions (1 Viewer)

[Hoovie]

Looking for a quick summary/check of the following from you Hymer/Adria EBL Geeks please

Van with an EBL Unit (think EBL99 as it is a small 09 plate van)
Fitting an Mains Charger; Trickle Charger and B2B, all of which will be external to the EBL unit

What do I need to do remove all charging functions from the EBL whilst retaining its 12V distribution and more critically the running of the 12V of the 3-way fridge when engine running?
For Mains, pull the AC plug out should stop the Mains Charger working and the Mains Trickle to the Starter - that is simple enough, right?
For the Split-Charge, what is the best way to retain the Fridge function without having the EBL Split-Charge running (I don't want the new B2B to go via the EBL). I seem to recall it is possible to just remove a single fuse to disable that - anyone confirm/correct that?

Cheers!

 

[Hoovie]

For the Split-Charge, what is the best way to retain the Fridge function without having the EBL Split-Charge running (I don't want the new B2B to go via the EBL). I seem to recall it is possible to just remove a single fuse to disable that - anyone confirm/correct that?

Cheers!

Looking at some threads, removing the Starter Battery Cable from the EBL will disable the Split-Charge (of course) but still allow the Fridge to work on 12V when engine running? Is that correct?
Looking at the EBL schematics, it looks like the EBL supplies the Fridge Power so no Starter Battery supply would suggest no 12V on Fridge? (talking basic manual 3-way dometic)

 

[autorouter]

Near the starter battery there should be two fuses, one is about 50A which supplies the split charge relay, and the other is about 20A which supplies the fridge 12V heater element power. There might be another one, 2A or 5A, on the D+ (engine running) signal.

Removing the 50A fuse will stop power to the split charge relay. It will still click on and off with the D+ signal, but it won't do anything. The other functions like the fridge power and battery voltage sensing all go through the other wire (the 20A one) so no functionality lost.

The wire with the 50A fuse goes to a big terminal block on the back of the EBL. If the B2B is not too big, say 30A, this wire can be utilised for the B2B, and its output fed into the terminal block you just disconnected. But if it's a bigger B2B, say 60A or more, it's better to do as you say and go straight to the battery.

As you say, simply removing the mains power will disable the charger and stop the starter battery trickle charge function. To be sure, you could remove the 'Internes Lademodul' (internal charge module) fuse on the charger output.

The problem of high power through an EBL has been solved by Schaudt, who do an add-on module called a HochStromModul, HSM (= High Current Module) which connects to the EBL via a data cable and some other wires, and takes the heavy loads for mains, solar and B2B while retaining the other EBL functions. It seems to do the job, but it's not very well-known or popular, I think people prefer to just bypass the EBL.

 

[jezport]

Just pull the mains lead kettle connection from the front of the EBL

 

[Hoovie]

Near the starter battery there should be two fuses, one is about 50A which supplies the split charge relay, and the other is about 20 which supplies the fridge 12V heater element power. There might be another one, 2A or 5A, on the D+ (engine running) signal.

Removing the 50A fuse will stop power to the split charge relay. It will still click on and off with the D+ signal, but it won't do anything. The other functions like the fridge power and battery voltage sensing all go through the other wire (the 20A one) so no functionality lost.

Thing with pulling the 50A fuse near the Starter battery is that I then cannot use the Starter battery supply around the EBL area to connect to the B2B which will be fitted in the same cupboard.
So there ARE two supplies from the Starter Battery - one to the EBL and one to the Fridge 12V element? This is what is not clear (to me anyway). Does this 20A Fridge Supply also go to the EBL in any way? (I am assuming not, but just for completeness).

The wire with the 50A fuse goes to a big terminal block on the back of the EBL. If the B2B is not too big, say 30A, this wire can be utilised for the B2B, and its output fed into the terminal block you just disconnected. But if it's a bigger B2B, say 60A or more, it's better to do as you say and go straight to the battery.

I don't want to re-feed into the EBL. I have done that in the past and it makes life easier, but it is possible I may double up on the B2B capacity so wiring to futureproof.
So rerouting the Starter Battery feed that currently goes into the EBL (in the rear of the EBL) to go into an external B2B will have no impact on the Fridge running on 12V? This is really the only part that concerns me as there is a connector block 2 and 3 that has references to Fridge supply as well as D+ signal and it is not clear (again, at least to me) what those provide. Is that just for something like the gas sparker and electronics on an AES Fridge then?

As you say, simply removing the mains power will disable the charger and stop the starter battery trickle charge function. To be sure, you could remove the 'Internes Lademodul' (internal charge module) fuse on the charger output.

That bit was nice and easy shame there is not an equivalent fuse for the split-charge

The problem of high power through an EBL has been solved by Schaudt, who do an add-on module called a HochStromModul, HSM (= High Current Module) which connects to the EBL via a data cable and some other wires, and takes the heavy loads for mains, solar and B2B while retaining the other EBL functions. It seems to do the job, but it's not very well-known or popular, I think people prefer to just bypass the EBL.

I can see some value in that kind of thing but in this case I want to bypass all Charging from the EBL and will be using a BMV as far as battery load and SOC monitoring is concerned.

Thanks!

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[autorouter]

So there ARE two supplies from the Starter Battery - one to the EBL and one to the Fridge 12V element? This is what is not clear (to me anyway). Does this 20A Fridge Supply also go to the EBL in any way? (I am assuming not, but just for completeness).

On the EBL99, there is a 5-way connector. Pin1 (pos) and Pin4 (neg) comes in directly from the starter battery, via that 20A fuse next to the starter battery in the positive. That's used for the supply for the fridge 12V heater, and it's independent of the 50A supply to the split charge relay. This wire is also used by the display panel to sense the starter battery voltage. It would also be used by the mains charger to trickle-charge the starter battery, but if you unplug its mains supply then it won't do that, of course.

Pin3 on the 5-way connector is the D+ signal from the alternator to the EBL.

In case you're wondering, the fridge 12V supply goes out from the EBL on the 4-way connector. Pin3 is negative, the positive is either Pin1 (Absorber type) or Pin4 (Compressor/AES type). The difference is, the Absorber type can only run while the engine is running. The Compressor/AES type can also do this, but in addition it can run from the leisure battery when the engine is stopped. To enable this you need to insert a fuse in the 'Kompr/AES Kuhlschrank' fuse slot. (Kuhlschrank = fridge). So the installer/manufacturer chooses Pin1 or Pin4 depending on which fridge type is installed. That's on the EBL99, on other EBLs there usually isn't that choice.

Pin2 on the 4-way connector is the D+ signal from the EBL to the fridge.

That supply is called the High Current (HC) supply, and it's for the 12V heater element only. The electronics control board and the gas ignition etc have an entirely separate supply, called the Low Current (LC) supply. The LC supply comes from the leisure battery, not the starter battery, usually on one of the 'permanent' supplies that also powers the step, and the heater/water heater control board. It usually doesn't have a separate fuse on the EBL front panel.

 

[Hoovie]

On the EBL99, there is a 5-way connector. Pin1 (pos) and Pin4 (neg) comes in directly from the starter battery, via that 20A fuse next to the starter battery in the positive. That's used for the supply for the fridge 12V heater, and it's independent of the 50A supply to the split charge relay. This wire is also used by the display panel to sense the starter battery voltage. It would also be used by the mains charger to trickle-charge the starter battery, but if you unplug its mains supply then it won't do that, of course.

Pin3 on the 5-way connector is the D+ signal from the alternator to the EBL.

In case you're wondering, the fridge 12V supply goes out from the EBL on the 4-way connector. Pin3 is negative, the positive is either Pin1 (Absorber type) or Pin4 (Compressor/AES type). The difference is, the Absorber type can only run while the engine is running. The Compressor/AES type can also do this, but in addition it can run from the leisure battery when the engine is stopped. To enable this you need to insert a fuse in the 'Kompr/AES Kuhlschrank' fuse slot. (Kuhlschrank = fridge). So the installer/manufacturer chooses Pin1 or Pin4 depending on which fridge type is installed. That's on the EBL99, on other EBLs there usually isn't that choice.

Pin2 on the 4-way connector is the D+ signal from the EBL to the fridge.

That supply is called the High Current (HC) supply, and it's for the 12V heater element only. The electronics control board and the gas ignition etc have an entirely separate supply, called the Low Current (LC) supply. The LC supply comes from the leisure battery, not the starter battery, usually on one of the 'permanent' supplies that also powers the step, and the heater/water heater control board. It usually doesn't have a separate fuse on the EBL front panel.

Ah, so the 5-pin connector is an Input and the 4-pin connector is an Output. Great info, thanks

Not so relevant to my setup now, but ref the Compressor/AES option, this setup means that that a compressor fridge will run off the Starter when the engine is running (D+ live) and off the Leisure when the engine is off (D+ off)? That's a neat bit of design. I like that.

 

[autorouter]

Not so relevant to my setup now, but ref the Compressor/AES option, this setup means that that a compressor fridge will run off the Starter when the engine is running (D+ live) and off the Leisure when the engine is off (D+ off)? That's a neat bit of design. I like that.

Yes, the fridge relay is a 5-terminal type, ie a changeover relay instead of a simple on-off 4-terminal type. The fridge is common (COM), Leisure battery is Normally Closed (NC) and starter battery is Normally Open (NO). Coil is triggered by the D+.

 

[Pebble99]

Ah, so the 5-pin connector is an Input and the 4-pin connector is an Output. Great info, thanks

Not so relevant to my setup now, but ref the Compressor/AES option, this setup means that that a compressor fridge will run off the Starter when the engine is running (D+ live) and off the Leisure when the engine is off (D+ off)? That's a neat bit of design. I like that.

Following this thread as I might need to do the same for my lithium install. Out of interest, which B2B, mains charger and solar regulator will you end up with?

 

[Hoovie]

Following this thread as I might need to do the same for my lithium install. Out of interest, which B2B, mains charger and solar regulator will you end up with?

This will be a very nice Victron setup - 30A B2B, MPPT 100/30 with a pair of Victron panels on the Roof, a BMV-712 for Battery Monitoring and a Multiplus 12/1600/70 (so a 1350W Inverter and a 70A Mains Charger) fed by a 300Ah Lithium (just waiting on the Battery to land before I can install).
Multiplus with Smart Dongle, BMV and MPPT are all in a 'Smart' Network so they can share data for optimum operation

IMO it is very hard to beat Victron kit except for their Batteries which are very pricey without a notable benefit I can detect.

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[peterc10]

I have stopped the EBL from charging my new lithium leisure batteries by pulling the 20A fuse. It is the second one from the left and is the middle one of three. That way the EBL will continue to trickle charge the engine battery via the separate 20A fridge connection.

 

[Hoovie]

I have stopped the EBL from charging my new lithium leisure batteries by pulling the 20A fuse. It is the second one from the left and is the middle one of three. That way the EBL will continue to trickle charge the engine battery via the separate 20A fridge connection.

Handy.
For my installation that wouldn't work out so well however as the EBL would always think it was on hookup as it would be fed by a Victron Multiplus.
A knock-on effect is that the Inverter would never be on standby due to that load and the setup would end up being wasteful of power (using an AMT Battery Maintainer instead to look after the Starter Battery and that will operate when on hookup or with SOlar Charging).

 

[chalkstorm]

On the EBL99, there is a 5-way connector. Pin1 (pos) and Pin4 (neg) comes in directly from the starter battery, via that 20A fuse next to the starter battery in the positive. That's used for the supply for the fridge 12V heater, and it's independent of the 50A supply to the split charge relay. This wire is also used by the display panel to sense the starter battery voltage. It would also be used by the mains charger to trickle-charge the starter battery, but if you unplug its mains supply then it won't do that, of course.

Pin3 on the 5-way connector is the D+ signal from the alternator to the EBL.

In case you're wondering, the fridge 12V supply goes out from the EBL on the 4-way connector. Pin3 is negative, the positive is either Pin1 (Absorber type) or Pin4 (Compressor/AES type). The difference is, the Absorber type can only run while the engine is running. The Compressor/AES type can also do this, but in addition it can run from the leisure battery when the engine is stopped. To enable this you need to insert a fuse in the 'Kompr/AES Kuhlschrank' fuse slot. (Kuhlschrank = fridge). So the installer/manufacturer chooses Pin1 or Pin4 depending on which fridge type is installed. That's on the EBL99, on other EBLs there usually isn't that choice.

Pin2 on the 4-way connector is the D+ signal from the EBL to the fridge.

That supply is called the High Current (HC) supply, and it's for the 12V heater element only. The electronics control board and the gas ignition etc have an entirely separate supply, called the Low Current (LC) supply. The LC supply comes from the leisure battery, not the starter battery, usually on one of the 'permanent' supplies that also powers the step, and the heater/water heater control board. It usually doesn't have a separate fuse on the EBL front panel.

This is all really helpful information - thanks so much! I've got an EBL269 and have just fitted a 125a/h KSEnergy lithium battery. Tested it while away last week and got 8 nights out of it (with minimal solar and poor alternator charging - but importantly, zero EHU charging!). Looking to fit a B2B of some sort to boost the terrible (average) 5amps I get from the alternator and that information above really helps.
I've bought a Victron IP65 mains charger (not that I needed it but didn't want to mess about getting the EBL internal charger upgraded - and equally wanted to make sure I protected the battery investment with proper care when needed).

I'm considering the Schaudt WA121525 "booster" as well as the Victron equivalent.

I'm going to pop out the 20amp internal charger fuse (I rarely have the mains lead connected to the EBL anyway) - to see if the starter will still get a trickle charge.

I'm going to pop out the 50 amp starter battery fuse (30 amps in mine - but the van is 17 years old so no doubt been changed for an unknown reason at some point) - see if the fridge still works (sure it will based on all the info above).

I think I can use the D+ on the 5 pin feed to the EBL for the fridge (bloc 2) to trigger a B2B.

Only think I cannot be sure on is the negatives on the rear of my EBL - I have 2 cables into 1 and assumed 1 was from the starter and 1 from the leisure but if they are both connected to the chassis, I'm not clever enough to trace them. The wiring on the Schaudt WA121525 has 2 options so was keen to establish the answer to my negatives.

Having said all of that ^^, in reality, if my van/battery can do 8 nights in Feb and work, without needed a EHU - I really don't need a B2B. Think I just "want one".

Cheers

 

[autorouter]

I'm going to pop out the 20amp internal charger fuse (I rarely have the mains lead connected to the EBL anyway) - to see if the starter will still get a trickle charge.

The answer is yes if EHU connected, no EHU not connected. There is a second output from the internal mains charger that switches on a relay. It connects the starter battery to the leisure battery, through a current limiting device that lets a trickle charge through. It still works if the 20A charger fuse is pulled, but not if the charger is getting no mains power.

Alternatively you could use a BatteryMaster trickle charger, which works all the time, a better option if you a rarely on EHU.

 

[chalkstorm]

The answer is yes if EHU connected, no EHU not connected. There is a second output from the internal mains charger that switches on a relay. It connects the starter battery to the leisure battery, through a current limiting device that lets a trickle charge through. It still works if the 20A charger fuse is pulled, but not if the charger is getting no mains power.

Alternatively you could use a BatteryMaster trickle charger, which works all the time, a better option if you a rarely on EHU.

Got it.... great news thanks!

I've spent too long working through this doc over the months.... but learnt more from this thread than anything else.

I do have an LRM1218 connected too - not sure if I need to do anything with that or leave it as is if I do fit a B2B

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[Hoovie]

This is all really helpful information - thanks so much! I've got an EBL269 and have just fitted a 125a/h KSEnergy lithium battery. Tested it while away last week and got 8 nights out of it (with minimal solar and poor alternator charging - but importantly, zero EHU charging!). Looking to fit a B2B of some sort to boost the terrible (average) 5amps I get from the alternator and that information above really helps.
I've bought a Victron IP65 mains charger (not that I needed it but didn't want to mess about getting the EBL internal charger upgraded - and equally wanted to make sure I protected the battery investment with proper care when needed).

I'm considering the Schaudt WA121525 "booster" as well as the Victron equivalent.

Just a comment on the WA121525 Booster .... not for this installation, but I bought a WA121525 just to check one out and I was very impressed with how constant and clean the output supply is from it.
Current as described and the unit did not get hot or even very warm after hours and hours of recharging work. Very good
PS. As mentioned, I got this to try out as heard they were quite good and wanted to check for myself, so now it is not needed. Still brand new in the box apart from around 20 hours of quality testing if you were interested in buying it?

I'm going to pop out the 20amp internal charger fuse (I rarely have the mains lead connected to the EBL anyway) - to see if the starter will still get a trickle charge.

I'm going to pop out the 50 amp starter battery fuse (30 amps in mine - but the van is 17 years old so no doubt been changed for an unknown reason at some point) - see if the fridge still works (sure it will based on all the info above).

I think I can use the D+ on the 5 pin feed to the EBL for the fridge (bloc 2) to trigger a B2B.

Only think I cannot be sure on is the negatives on the rear of my EBL - I have 2 cables into 1 and assumed 1 was from the starter and 1 from the leisure but if they are both connected to the chassis, I'm not clever enough to trace them. The wiring on the Schaudt WA121525 has 2 options so was keen to establish the answer to my negatives.

Having said all of that ^^, in reality, if my van/battery can do 8 nights in Feb and work, without needed a EHU - I really don't need a B2B. Think I just "want one".

Cheers

 

[paddymcc]

If you trace back the D+ signal going into the EBL you may find it attached to a terminal block that makes it easy to get a connection. That was the case in mine - Merc sprinter 2006 with EBL 101 under the passenger seat (rhd).
I also put a switch in the wire accessible when driving to turn off the B2B if I didn't want to arrive home with a full lithium battery.

 

[chalkstorm]

Just a comment on the WA121525 Booster .... not for this installation, but I bought a WA121525 just to check one out and I was very impressed with how constant and clean the output supply is from it.
Current as described and the unit did not get hot or even very warm after hours and hours of recharging work. Very good
PS. As mentioned, I got this to try out as heard they were quite good and wanted to check for myself, so now it is not needed. Still brand new in the box apart from around 20 hours of quality testing if you were interested in buying it?

I could well be...

Think I need to answer some questions on the quality of the cables (on a 2005 Pilote). They measure up to be around 50amps... if not I'd need to got with some wiring upgrades first which I hadn't wanted to do

 

[chalkstorm]

The answer is yes if EHU connected, no EHU not connected. There is a second output from the internal mains charger that switches on a relay. It connects the starter battery to the leisure battery, through a current limiting device that lets a trickle charge through. It still works if the 20A charger fuse is pulled, but not if the charger is getting no mains power.

Alternatively you could use a BatteryMaster trickle charger, which works all the time, a better option if you a rarely on EHU.

Hi autorouter

Been checking out a few things this afternoon (measuring cables etc ready to install my new Schaudt Booster /B2B (thanks Hoovie!).

I popped the 20amp internal charger fuse and it did indeed stop the charger but I didn't leave the 240v on long enough to check it was trickle charging the starter battery as the LED indicating EHU was flashing.

I've googled for an answer but come up blank... Do you think this is just a message telling me to check power / fuses etc or do you think these is a risk of damage?

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Thanks

 

[autorouter]

I popped the 20amp internal charger fuse and it did indeed stop the charger but I didn't leave the 240v on long enough to check it was trickle charging the starter battery as the LED indicating EHU was flashing.

The answer is yes if EHU connected, no EHU not connected.

It's actually a bit more complicated. There is a common point inside the EBL, on the load side of the shunt, that all the leisure battery loads and chargers are connected to. The feed to the starter battery trickle charge also comes from that common point. But there is a relay in the feed to the trickle charger, triggered by a second output wire from the internal charger, that is only on when the internal mains charger is powered.

If anything (internal charger, solar, auxiliary charger etc) raises the voltage of that common point, then the starter trickle charger works, but only if that relay is switched on.

If the internal charger was working as designed, the relay would switch on, the internal charger would raise the voltage of the common point, and the starter would trickle charge.

If the internal charger fuse is removed, but the internal charger is still powered, the relay would switch on but no trickle charging because the common point voltage would not be raised. However if something else (solar, aux charger) raises the common point voltage then trickle charging will happen.

If the internal charger is not powered for any reason, the relay will not switch on, and no trickle charging even if the solar or aux charger are charging the leisure battery.

So unless you are happy to have the internal charger on but not charging, it might be better to have some other arrangement for trickle-charging the starter battery. A BatteryMaster for example could be connected from that 'common point' to the starter battery, and would trickle charge whenever the solar or aux charger were charging the leisure battery.

I think the flashing EHU light is just the panel telling you the internal charger isn't charging even though the EHU is connected. Because you just removed the fuse. You could pull out the mains plug going into the EBL, so it would think there is no EHU connected.

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