P reg Ducato won't start . . .

[MarionK]

Obviously it was fine when I got it, and it was still fine after mechanic friend changed the oil and various filters . . . or maybe it wasn't so fine . . .

I had had every intention of taking it for a run at least once a week, to practice driving such a large vehicle if nothing else, but when I got it back from the friend, we were already going down with covid, and to cut a long story short, I didn't get a chance to even start her up for over a month. So it was on a freezing cold day in January, I finally got to try and start her up, but I couldn't get it to 'rev' at all, and after maybe 5 minutes, it stalled again, at which point I had to give up.
A couple of weeks later the mechanic friend came round to see what was wrong. After a bit of poking around and a few abortive attempts at starting it, he discovered that the washer on the fuel filter was mangled, (not his fault ofc!). From this we both figured that the fuel line got air in it. Apparently this shouldn't be a problem, but he reckons the battery doesn't have enough oomph to clear it, and says I need a new battery . . . I'm not convinced, I have a very hefty power pack, and even with that in tandem, it still doesn't clear it. Plus the battery shows no signs of going low after multiple attempts at starting.

To add insult to injury my usual mechanic has just retired and neither his replacement nor the people he recommended to MOT the MH seem very interested.

 

[GeoffnDee]

If you have the type of fuel filter housing that has a priming pump button on the top of it to bleed the system , these can have their diaphragm split which will let air into the fuel system , The other possibility is that the cold start system is not working , as it should do ,when required.
Also , I may be wrong , but I doubt if a 1996 ? van would have the self bleeding fuel injection system that later ones have and would need to be bled by the correct method for your type of system

 

[denisejoe]

Dont know if you have and accident diesel cut off it could be that we drove on to our drive 5 days later no start just kept turning and that’s what it was.

 

[2bob]

can you put a picture up of fuel filter housing that has a priming pump button on the top of it to

 

[Landy Andy]

You should be able to tell if it’s is battery or not, by the sound of it as you crank it.

If it has air in the fuel system to a point it stalled, it will probably be best to bleed the fuel system at the injectors.

Have you now changed the fuel filter?

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[GeoffnDee]

can you put a picture up of fuel filter housing that has a priming pump button on the top of it to

2bob No idea how I would do that , but if you look on the Coastal Motorhomes website and put in - Fuel filter housing - there are some shown there which have manual primers fitted that are used , when pressed , to bleed up to and including the filter.

 

[jockaneezer]

I'm not familiar with the engine, but I'm assuming it doesn't have an electrical lift pump in the tank that primes the system ? Do you know if it has a mechanical lift pump (usually driven off the camshaft) sometimes these have a little lever on the side that allows you to prime the system ?
If it has a mechanical pump and you've taken care of any air leaks regarding the filter housing, remove the pipe that goes to the inlet manifold from the air filter and block this off with a piece of plywood or similar, loosen off an injector pipe ( the easiest one to access) and then start cranking the engine. The blocked air inlet will stop the engine drawing in and compressing the air and this will reduce the load on the starter and battery and usually let's the engine spin over faster. Do this until you get fuel at the injector, then put everything back to normal and try it.
It's a bit old skool, but your van's not in the first flush of youth and sometimes you just have to resort to old fashioned methods !

 

[MarionK]

If you have the type of fuel filter housing that has a priming pump button on the top of it to bleed the system , these can have their diaphragm split which will let air into the fuel system , The other possibility is that the cold start system is not working , as it should do ,when required.

I will have a look tomorrow, and post a pic (hopefully). All it says in the manual about cold starting is to depress the accelerator pedal until it starts then release. :S

. . . Also , I may be wrong , but I doubt if a 1996 ? van would have the self bleeding fuel injection system that later ones have and would need to be bled by the correct method for your type of system

I doubt it too, another reason why I'm not changing the battery (at least not without better reason).

 

[MarionK]

Dont know if you have and accident diesel cut off it could be that we drove on to our drive 5 days later no start just kept turning and that’s what it was.

Apparently it has, so I will check that out tomorrow too.

 

[MarionK]

You should be able to tell if it’s is battery or not, by the sound of it as you crank it.

If it has air in the fuel system to a point it stalled, it will probably be best to bleed the fuel system at the injectors.

Have you now changed the fuel filter?

It sounds good to me, but I don't have as much experience as the guy who says it's the battery :S
I'll see if I can locate/identify the injectors tomorrow.
The fuel filter was changed just after I got it, it's only done about 5 miles.

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[MarionK]

I'm not familiar with the engine, but I'm assuming it doesn't have an electrical lift pump in the tank that primes the system ? Do you know if it has a mechanical lift pump (usually driven off the camshaft) sometimes these have a little lever on the side that allows you to prime the system ?
If it has a mechanical pump and you've taken care of any air leaks regarding the filter housing, remove the pipe that goes to the inlet manifold from the air filter and block this off with a piece of plywood or similar, loosen off an injector pipe ( the easiest one to access) and then start cranking the engine. The blocked air inlet will stop the engine drawing in and compressing the air and this will reduce the load on the starter and battery and usually let's the engine spin over faster. Do this until you get fuel at the injector, then put everything back to normal and try it.
It's a bit old skool, but your van's not in the first flush of youth and sometimes you just have to resort to old fashioned methods !

I have no idea if the pump is mechanical or electrical. All I know about it is that it's in the tank itself (courtesy of goolol), so I suspect that it's electric.
Does this method not work with electrical pump?
It may be old, but it's in vgc, especially for it's age, and it's done less than 80k. eta, and yes older methods will likely be more appropriate!

 

[mitzimad]

electric in tank pump will get it up to the injection pump but you may need to bleed it after thatim not nsure if thats a common rail engine but loosening the feed pipe to that very slightly will bleed it or prove deisel is getting there

 

[mitzimad]

you could try starting it with easy start to keep it running to bleed it through

 

[GeoffnDee]

MarionK Do you know Which type and size of engine that you have fitted in your Motorhome?

 

[TheBig1]

does the glow plug lamp light on the dash? and do you wait for it to go out before cranking the engine over?

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[Jev88]

P reg?
Change your battery earth straps and add additional earth engine to gearbox and engine to body.

 

[jockaneezer]

I have no idea if the pump is mechanical or electrical. All I know about it is that it's in the tank itself (courtesy of goolol), so I suspect that it's electric.
Does this method not work with electrical pump?
It may be old, but it's in vgc, especially for it's age, and it's done less than 80k. eta, and yes older methods will likely be more appropriate!

If it has an electric pump in the tank, these usually come on when you first switch the ignition on to prime the system. Can you unplug the feed pipe to the filter housing, turn the ignition on and check that fuel is getting to the filter ?
Also, as Jev88 says,cleaning and remaking or adding additional earth straps would be a good move for the general "health" of your van.

 

[Jev88]

P reg?
Change your battery earth straps and add additional earth engine to gearbox and engine to body.

Sorry - I should have explained in a bit more detail. I had a 1999 2.5tdi Ducato engine and I had several overlapping faults and the common factor was rubbish, deteriorated earth cables. Although I had a dodgy (senile) Fiat immobiliser and the water removal cap on the bottom of the fuel filter was split (allowing air into filter?) too I had some strange intermittent faults similar to yours and MOST of them were cured by the addition of two extra earth straps.

My symptoms that occured almost at random.....
- Very slow turn over on starting.
- No turn over of engine at all.
- Normal fast spinning of starter motor but no actual firing.
- Engine sarts but ran really rough and would not rev up - almost like only 2 cylinders actually getting fuel.

 

[L' Hobo]

It might help if the OP stated the year and engine size of the vehicle, I know it say's P reg. but is the P in front or behind the numbers?
EXACT age and size would help!

OR, Have they used up their 5 free posts???

 

[sonar]

I think a P. reg is a 1976 . And as far i know that. P. Reg has alway been the first letter .

and they have plenty of post under their belt.

I was always told a Diesel engine needs three things to run

compression. Fuel. And a preheat.

sounds like one of the three is not working.

so if you compression and fuel then it’s a glow plug.

all three items have to be tested. Still not working then if it has an ecu fitted . Is so it could be that.

not much else that can stop a diesal working.

in the boatyard they used to get diesel engines running without even being in the boats.
tested before they were fitted.

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[L' Hobo]

I think a P. reg is a 1976 . And as far i know that. P. Reg has alway been the first letter .

and they have plenty of post under their belt.

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[MarionK]

Ohh lots more replies since I went afk I'll post replies to the newer posts after this.

It doesn't look like it's the cut-off, I pressed it and no real difference, possibly firing slightly more or maybe just my imagination.

I couldn't find the injectors, I presume I have to remove a plastic cover? What is the big plastic cap for?

I also couldn't find any lever for the pump but I couldn't get to where it would probably be, I might try again at some point but I was getting cold, and there are still other things to try.

I haven't tried loosening the feed to the filter yet, I'd rather watch the line while someone else turns the ignition, and that needs another pair of hands. :S Next week-end.

Similarly when I actually locate the injectors I think it'd be better doing the bleeding with another pair of hands around. So also next weekend with a bit of luck.

I think I managed to get pics of the filter housing:-

Phew! They look a lot better on here than on the tablet!

ugh got to go, but it's 1996 model

 

[GeoffnDee]

The seal on the small black water drain knob that is at the bottom of the fuel filter does not appear to be fitted correctly and is probable letting air into the fuel system stopping it starting or able to be bled. ( The filter does not appear to be the type that has a plunger bleed button on the top that I thought you may have had)
I would think that the black plastic cap next to the Fiat logo on the first photo is for adding engine oil when it needs to be topped up or changed.

 

[TheBig1]

I worked on one of those a few weeks ago for a friend. The drain on the diesel filter looks lopsided. If it's been cross threaded, I would just change the filter. From memory I paid about £13 for a new filter

 

[TheBig1]

actually it was under £12

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[gus-lopez]

that isn't the drain plug that comes with the filter but the one off the vehicle that has the water sensor attached to it. You have to swop each time filter is changed.The constant changing each time filter is replaced doesn't help & it does look lopsided to me also. Trouble is if it was why isn't it leaking diesel?

 

[GeoffnDee]

I think that If it is letting air in , the lift pump would not be able to pull fuel into the filter from the tank ( If the engine has a mechanical lift pump )

 

[MarionK]

mitzimad I'm leaving quick-start as a last resort, as it's not good for the engine, and I'm not on a deadline.

MarionK Do you know Which type and size of engine that you have fitted in your Motorhome?

Errm . . . 8140.47R? 2500 T.Diesel cat?

does the glow plug lamp light on the dash? and do you wait for it to go out before cranking the engine over?

Yes, and yes, and I actually do it twice before cranking.

It might help if the OP stated the year and engine size of the vehicle, I know it say's P reg. but is the P in front or behind the numbers?
EXACT age and size would help!

OR, Have they used up their 5 free posts???

It's in front, meaning 1996 not 1976. I had forgotten that for many years before that the letter had been at the end, meaning that "P reg" could also mean 1976, but actually the first Ducatos were made in 1981.
You could check my post count . . .

sonar I've been focussing on fuel supply for the reason given in the op, but how do you know if it's compression or glow plugs Nice post btw.

Landy Andy I figure you really meant the mangled washer that I mentioned in the op, but forgot to say that the friend replaced it with a new one. Problem could be that he may have mangled that too.
More generally, the filter doesn't seem to be leaking fuel any more, so despite the wonky looking black area, I don't think that is the current problem.

Jev88 and jockaneezer That's currently top of my to do list if I get time before the weekend, and I'll get it done sometime even if I don't get the time this week.

GeoffnDee TheBig1 yes it looks wonky (but doesn't seem to be leaking) and if other things don't sort it, I will replace it, and the washer.

 

[gus-lopez]

I think that If it is letting air in , the lift pump would not be able to pull fuel into the filter from the tank ( If the engine has a mechanical lift pump )

If memory serves me correctly the actual diesel injector pump pulls the fuel through that is why the previous model hand the hand bulb on it for priming.

 

[mitzimad]

nothing wrong with easy start your going to tell me a lump of iron can get addicted. what normally happens is theres is a fault which should be looked at and isnt because they can start on easy start then the fault becomes more serious and it wont start at all and they blame the easy start

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