New Fiat Ducato or Citroen Relay or Peugeot Boxer? (1 Viewer)

[CazPaul]

Anybody drove a Citroen Relay or Peugeot Boxer, I know loads drive the Fiat.

Looking for comparisons, engines different, gearboxes different, running gear?

The Citroen claims a cracking MPG, 46 it is claiming, seen that the owner of Wildax Duncan is saying some of his customers are claiming 40mpg.

Anybody?

 

[MC 55 FUN]

Anybody drove a Citroen Relay or Peugeot Boxer, I know loads drive the Fiat.

Looking for comparisons, engines different, gearboxes different, running gear?

The Citroen claims a cracking MPG, 46 it is claiming, seen that the owner of Wildax Duncan is saying some of his customers are claiming 40mpg.

Anybody?

The type of vehicle will have some bearing on M.P.G, I'd expect a P.V.C. to be more economical than a low profile coachbuilt & that to be more economical than an overcab.

Until very recently both Citroen & Peugeot used Ford's Puma 2.2 in various b.h.p. outputs, neither our old 60 plate overcab Peugeot base or our latest 15 plate low profile Peugeot base have achieved 40 m.p.g.

I believe both Citroen & Peugeot now use a P.S.A. 2.0 engine in various b.h.p. outputs to achieve Euro 6 emissions.

 

[Mikeco]

I bought the Peugeot Boxer 5 years ago for my conversion as I knew that it used a Ford Puma engine, don't know what they are using now. Get around 35mpg

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[CazPaul]

Is this significant and is the Relay and Boxer more reliable?

Why do we favour EGR and SCR?
With the arrival of the new Euro VI European standard, which applies to models released after September 2015, vehicle manufacturers have had to find innovative technologies to reduce pollutant emissions on their diesel models. There are two technologies that can reduce levels of nitrogen oxides (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) to the levels required by the standard: Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR). Manufacturers either use both or only use SCR.

How do EGR and SCR work?
EGR works by taking some of the exhaust gas and adding it into the intake air. With a lower proportion of oxygen, the fuel does not burn completely and the cylinder temperature is lower. This reduces the amount of NOx formed, but does also lead to the formation of soot particles, which then need to be filtered out by a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) in order to stay within the prescribed limits. During operation, the filter must be periodically regenerated by burning off the soot. EGR alone is not effective enough to meet the Euro VI standard.

SCR works with AdBlue®, a urea- and water-based fluid, to convert NOx emissions from the engine into nitrogen and water.

There are clear and quantifiable benefits to SCR
An SCR system has many advantages:

• No power draw to cool the exhaust gases
• No fuel used for active regeneration or to boost SCR performance
• No additional complexity for the manufacturer of the body
• No engine noise during forced regeneration when at a standstill
• Lower operating temperatures inside the DPF and no risk of thermal runaway
• Longer oil change intervals (up to 90,000 miles/150,000 km)
• Longest DPF service interval (up to 360,000 miles/600,000 km)
• A much simpler engine means a lower risk of breakdowns

 

[tonyidle]

Citroen, Peugeot, Fiat commercials are part of the Sevel Group. Bodies / suspension, etc are all built in the same factory. The engines are supplied by any of the companies in the group and by companies outside the group. Which engine is fitted to which vehicle is determined by the engine fuel, capacity, and power output required rather than by the badge on the front. Or rear .

 

[MC 55 FUN]

Citroen, Peugeot, Fiat commercials are part of the Sevel Group. Bodies / suspension, etc are all built in the same factory. The engines are supplied by any of the companies in the group and by companies outside the group. Which engine is fitted to which vehicle is determined by the engine fuel, capacity, and power output required rather than by the badge on the front. Or rear .

I've never heard of a Peugeot or Citroen base with a FIAT engine

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[CazPaul]

All the Fiats are 2.3, the new Peugeot/Citroens are 2.0, surely not the same engines are they?

Are the Citroen/Peugeot timing belts?
Are they more reliable than the Fiat 2.3?

Do Citroen/Peugeot use EGR as well as SCR technology, or just SCR?

Its a minefield isn't it?

 

[soreeyes]

Fiat engine is Iveco .

 

[MC 55 FUN]

All the Fiats are 2.3, the new Peugeot/Citroens are 2.0, surely not the same engines are they?

As previously stated the FIAT engine is different engine from the ones installed in Peugeots & Citroens, which were Ford & very recently are P.S.A., reliability wise I'd expect at least 200,000 miles from any of these modern engines, if well maintained & serviced, which will be well beyond the mileage covered by most Moho's.

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[Lenny HB]

Towards the end of this year Fiat are supposed to be changing over to SCR.

 

[Podney]

But,why not get a Ford. Super engines.

 

[CazPaul]

Towards the end of this year Fiat are supposed to be changing over to SCR.

That's interesting news then.

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[soreeyes]

2.3 I thought I read its Iveco F1AE0418E in the new Ducato .

 

[MC 55 FUN]

But,why not get a Ford. Super engines.

The Ford Puma can't meet Euro 6 - hence P.S.A. engines in new Citroens & Peugeots, Ford's new ecoblue 2.0 uses s.c.r. tech' to achieve Euro 6 & available in three power outputs of 105 PS/ 360 NM, 130 PS / 385 NM and 170PS / 405 NM,

 

[Stretto Boy]

But,why not get a Ford. Super engines.

Does that mean the thieves can get away more quickly when they steal it?

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[Langtoftlad]

I've got a new 2.0 Citroen 130ps powering a PVC...
But I won't be any help as I'm a vehicle & technical numpty .
Emissions Euro 6, courtesy of the AdBlue system... Means the diesel tank is restricted to 90 litres...
As for driving, seems to have plenty of oomph, I tend to pootle along but it certainly can hurtle when I put my foot down.
I'm only getting a real 32 mpg so far (3300 miles) but I don't think I'm the most frugal of drivers , and I'm told it'll improve as the engine loosens up after about 5k (whatever that means).

On the offchance I can actually answer anything, I'd be happy to.

 

[The general]

Does that mean the thieves can get away more quickly when they steal it?

The old chestnut , any van can be stolen including fiat if they want one ?

 

[Steve N Tracy]

Peugeot and Citroen refused to pay into the development costs of the Fiat 2.3 engine so of the Sevel group only Fiat get to use it, Add Blue just adds another possible way for contaminants to get into the fuel system.

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[Stretto Boy]

The old chestnut , any van can be stolen including fiat if they want one ?

Of course. My comment was tongue in cheek. Our previous MH was based on a Transit and it was never stolen although I did take additional precautions. The van part was very comfortable, although it was underpowered. I think the newer ones (ours was 2007) are more powerful.

 

[MC 55 FUN]

Peugeot and Citroen refused to pay into the development costs of the Fiat 2.3 engine so of the Sevel group only Fiat get to use it.

Peugeot & Citroen are one & the same since Peugeot bought out the bankrupt Citroen company in 1976, the engine choice is unsurprising as the P.S.A. group make their own engines for Peugeots, Citroens & others.

P.S.A. have a joint venture with Ford which explains why Peugeots & Citroens have until very recently used Ford's stock of Puma 2.2 engines in Moho's / P.V.C.'s

 

[DuxDeluxe]

Peugeot and Citroen refused to pay into the development costs of the Fiat 2.3 engine so of the Sevel group only Fiat get to use it, Add Blue just adds another possible way for contaminants to get into the fuel system.

AdBlue actually injected into the exhaust side not the fuel side...... and people had better get used to it as it is the only way to meet Euro 6 right now.

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[CazPaul]

AdBlue actually injected into the exhaust side not the fuel side...... and people had better get used to it as it is the only way to meet Euro 6 right now.

Fiat have met euro 6 with EGR though not SCR as Citroen/Peugeot have done.
I am more inclined to order a van on the Citroen/Peugeot with the SCR system, all the information I can find points to the SCR being a better system to meet standards with less problems, better fuel economy etc.

Is this the general consensus of opinion on here too?

 

[SpeedyDux]

The change by Fiat to SCL is not understood, because the 2017 2.3 engine apparently meets the Euro 6 emission standard using EGR alone. One advantage for Fiat (at least for 2017 year vans) is more payload available because there is no Adblue tank.

Does anyone actually know why Fiat is making this change? Is the EU tightening Euro 6 testing and compliance?

 

[Steve N Tracy]

AdBlue actually injected into the exhaust side not the fuel side...... and people had better get used to it as it is the only way to meet Euro 6 right now.

Yes I know but its not unknown for numpty's to put in the diesel filler.

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[CazPaul]

The change by Fiat to SCL is not understood, because the 2017 2.3 engine apparently meets the Euro 6 emission standard using EGR alone. One advantage for Fiat (at least for 2017 year vans) is more payload available because there is no Adblue tank.

Does anyone actually know why Fiat is making this change? Is the EU tightening Euro 6 testing and compliance?

From what I can find online its because, as the emissions get more stringent for 2018 then Fiat will no longer be able to meet the standards using EGR, so will have to switch to SCR.
That is why its seems stupid ordering a van with an EGR system when everyone will soon be using SCR, why not order the SCR when it is available now, I think this system can be adapted and meet standards for the future without changing much, so its seems a no brainer, although I,m not sure I know enough about it yet, just what I have researched in the last 2 days.
Why buy a EGR system when no one will soon be using it?

Surely an SCR system can meet future standards better as technology currently stands?

So a Citroen Relay 2.0 160bhpo is a better choice than the fiat Ducato 150bhp, which are the choices I am left with. I want a manual anyway so doesn't matter that Fiat are the only one that offers automatic.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I am not sure where this is heading in terms of complexity. I am a bit of a numpty where emissions control systems are concerned but I am guessing that the 2018 diesel Euro 6 engines will have a plethora of SCL, Cat, DPF, maybe still EGR, and umpteen sensors which in my experience are a weak point.

The principle that a bigger cylinder capacity low stressed engine has better longevity and is more tolerant to abuse and neglect than a highly stressed small cylinder capacity engine has seemed valid for decades. The idea that a 2 litre turbo engine should propel (say) a 5 tonne GVW vehicle for 200,000 trouble free miles does make one wonder.

 

[CazPaul]

Yes agree but the question is Fiat, according to reports will no longer be able to meet the standards with EGR so will have to switch and join other manufacturers, so it seems a no brainer, why would you buy a system that no one else will be using in a year when everyone else has already switched over to SCR.

All the reports I can find online come up with the same conclusion as the quote below.

There are clear and quantifiable benefits to SCR over EGR
An SCR system has many advantages:

• No power draw to cool the exhaust gases
• No fuel used for active regeneration or to boost SCR performance
• No additional complexity for the manufacturer of the body
• No engine noise during forced regeneration when at a standstill
• Lower operating temperatures inside the DPF and no risk of thermal runaway
• Longer oil change intervals (up to 90,000 miles/150,000 km)
• Longest DPF service interval (up to 360,000 miles/600,000 km)
• A much simpler engine means a lower risk of breakdowns

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[Phillybarbour]

Smaller engines with higher output is the norm and the way forward. Has been in heavier commercials for some time.

No adblue (Fiat) is a better option particularly re weight.

If your vehicle meets Euro 6 ( as all new ones do) future development is not relevant as older vehicles will not be upgraded to the next requirement by amending the vehicle, those dats are well gone.

Choose the van/brand you want and don't get to hung up on how it achieves the standards. Each manufacturer has its own solution to any problem.

 

[MC 55 FUN]

I am not sure where this is heading in terms of complexity.

It's heading inexorably towards the demise of the diesel engine, the signs are already there with many manufacturers heading towards hybrid engines, the year 2040 has already been stated as the beginning of the end & I'd be surprised if this date isn't brought forward.

Since cats, d.p.f.'s, e.g.r.v.'s & now s.c.r. with adblue have all been fitted to diesels to meet ever stringent emissions levels, there's currently very little, if any, add on technology left to improve diesel Nox emissions.

Purely on an emissions basis, all non d.p.f. diesels up to euro 4 are already obsolete i.m.o.

If we were buying a new Moho now I wouldn't be that concerned, if buying used I'd try to buy as new as possible.

I don't understand why petrol engines aren't fitted to more Moho's / P.V.C.'s as this would cure the issue, Ford's 2.0 / 2.3 ecoboost engines, for example, are more than enough to propel any 3.5t vehicle with ease.

 

[CazPaul]

Fuel economy is much better with SCR system which is a big consideration, some Citroen Relay panel van motorhomes are claiming 40+ mpg, their Relay van brochure states 46 mpg.
See Wildax website.

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