Lead Carbon Batteries

[RogerIvy]

Has anyone changed over to these and if so can you comment on your experience?

 

[Lenny HB]

If you do a search there is another thread about them. The decent ones are expensive over £300 for 100a/h might as well spend a bit more and go Lithium.

 

[RogerIvy]

If you do a search there is another thread about them. The decent ones are expensive over £300 for 100a/h might as well spend a bit more and go Lithium.

Thanks for this Lenny, but none of the other threads have comments from anyone that has actually made the change. So far all content is based on opinion and reading up - I'm hoping for a real-life experience. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I could have piggy-backed on existing old threads but decided to start a fresh pallet.

 

[funflair]

Looks like you might have to be the trailblazer then, or save a bit of cash and go Gel or as Lenny says splash a bit of cash on LiFePO4.

 

[denisejoe]

More than a bit of cash to go to lithium

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[funflair]

More than a bit of cash to go to lithium

Indeed, I used the term rather loosely, it seemed right for us to have lithium on a new and expensive van but if I had been changing batteries on a older van I would most likely have stayed with Gel or tried something like these Lead Carbon being discussed.

 

[Coop]

I don't know about Lead Carbon Batteries but we ran on a pair of 150ah Lead Crystal leisure batteries for about 3 years.

Are they similar?

 

[two]

I wouldn't expect 'real life experience' to be available for some time yet.

 

[wfdTamar]

The Leoch one is £239 for 100Ah. There’s a bloke who has them in a narrow boat (he’s on YouTube). I think they’ve been around in the US so may be some real experience there. Weight less of an issue with the tanks they drive.

 

[ChrisL]

I was just looking at lead carbon yesterday, as I managed to accidently leave the inverter on for several months and discovered that my Numax xv31MF was down to 4.5 volts, it was about 8 years old anyway so due for renewing.

Alpha batteries have some 100AH batteries at reasonable prices, there seem to be two different types,
A cheaper one at £169.98

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon Deep Cycle Battery (LDC12-105-G27-DT) (SLCA-12115 DT) - Alpha Batteries

12V 105AH Leoch AGM Lead Carbon deep cycle battery – LDC105-G27-DT What Makes Lead Carbon AGM Superior to other AGMs? Positive […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

And a dearer one at £239.99 which is pure lead carbon, I think the former is a wet paste battery and this one is dry.

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

If anyone can explain the difference I would be thankful.

There is another pure lead carbon battery but they are out of stock. Also I have just pointed out 100AH batteries other sizes are available.

12V 110AH Expedition Plus Lead Carbon Gel Ultra Deep Cycle Battery (EXP12-110C) - Alpha Batteries

Ultra Deep Cycle Lead Carbon GEL Battery

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

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[wfdTamar]

Not sure of the technical difference, but the more expensive one has a greater number of cycles, so will last longer. You could calculate that vs cost. Also can be charged fast (no mention of that for the cheap one).

The Ritar seems to be a generic Chinese brand. Always hard to know.

 

[ChrisL]

The Ritar seems to be a generic Chinese brand. Always hard to know.

I think that one is made in Vietnam, but definitely a Chinese company, I haven't been able to find one in stock online in the UK so far.

There is another Carbon technology battery I found in the USA, Carbon foam but they are very expensive. £440 on Amazon for 116AH

<Broken link removed>

Amazon product ASIN B078GKKN17

 

[wfdTamar]

That one's even heavier. Some bad reviews on US Amazon. Good cycle rate (1000-1300 at 80%, 3600-4200 at 50%). Given the bad US reviews on Amazon and that it's a lot more expensive than the Leoch, I'd go with the Leoch over it. I'd take a chance on £240, but £440 is too much to gamble (for me).

<Broken link removed>

https://oceanplanetenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/86/2020/09/12VG31-brochure-SPI-LV.pdf

Amazon product ASIN B078GKKN17

 

[ChrisL]

All this new battery technology is very interesting, but it'd cost a lot of money to try them all out
I'm just trying to find out about lead crystal now (no not the glass) not sure if they are available in the UK yet but I will report back if they sound promising.

 

[ChrisL]

So, lead crystal, seem expensive and appear to have strict charging requirements.

Lead crystal battery 6-CNFJ-90 12V 90Ah M6-F

Order your Lead crystal battery 6-CNFJ-90 12V 90Ah M6-F (AMC9009) at an unbeatable price from Allbatteries.co.uk.

www.allbatteries.co.uk

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[RogerIvy]

So, lead crystal, seem expensive and appear to have strict charging requirements.

It's almost as if he was trying to tell me NOT to buy the batteries ... so fiddly in addition to the expense!

 

[Coop]

As said, we ran on a pair of 150ah Lead Crystal leisure batteries with great success for about 3 years until a fault on the B2B combined with +30 degree temperatures melted them.

We continued to use them in their sorry state for another 2 to 3 months before replacement.

During their time we found them to perform very well, easily coping with day to day running and occasional use of our 2000 watt invertor.

We use a 60 amp B2B, moving most days but backed up with 400 watts of solar on the roof for extended stays. Rarely use hookup.

 

[Eadie]

Has anyone changed over to these and if so can you comment on your experience?

I may be a bit late but I have two of these & have been using them for 16 months. I have a Sterling 60A B2B charger & a little solar panel on the roof.

I can honestly say, these batteries are fantastic. They charge fast & provide me with all the power I need.

I've used the preset setting of AGM II on my B2B, not bothering with putting in a custom setting & so far it's been charging them just fine.

I do live full time in my van & put a few miles on it, so the whole set up suits me just fine.

I hope that recommendation helps you, or others who read this thread, to buy them with confidence.

I did consider lithium myself but branded 100ah batteries are still silly money, around the £6-800 mark. Cheap Chinese can be found for £430 but that's a lot of cash for something which may be junk.

I opted for Leoch, as they're a massive battery company, who supply many cars with OEM batteries. So the 5 year warranty, really is as good as the paper it's written on.

 

[BasherBaz]

Thanks Eadie

You've made my decision for me. Was just looking into these this evening to replace my two 110Ah lead acid wet cells on my VW Crafter MWB. Had been weighing up 2 x NDS Lion LifePo4 batteries but the cost and the problems below freezing temperatures fighting with the BMS puts me off as overlanding to Thailand so want the most reliable option and biggest temperature range and they claim an operating temperature from -30 to +60 degrees C.

The faster recharge times over my current set up when used in conjunction with my Votronic 50A B2B charger and 200W solar panels appeals to me and if it all goes wrong its an easier swap back to standard Lead Acids than with LifePo4's if stuck in the middle of Krygyzstan or similar.
Plus it leaves me with plenty of change for diesel

 

[IanRJ]

Thanks Eadie

You've made my decision for me. Was just looking into these this evening to replace my two 110Ah lead acid wet cells on my VW Crafter MWB. Had been weighing up 2 x NDS Lion LifePo4 batteries but the cost and the problems below freezing temperatures fighting with the BMS puts me off as overlanding to Thailand so want the most reliable option and biggest temperature range and they claim an operating temperature from -30 to +60 degrees C.

The faster recharge times over my current set up when used in conjunction with my Votronic 50A B2B charger and 200W solar panels appeals to me and if it all goes wrong its an easier swap back to standard Lead Acids than with LifePo4's if stuck in the middle of Krygyzstan or similar.
Plus it leaves me with plenty of change for diesel

Do you know the max depth of discharge for these batteries? Leach site does not state it as far as I can see.

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[wfdTamar]

Look at the graphs on the product datasheet here - bottom left of the sheet there a depth of discharge - number of cycles curve. The deeper you go the shorter the life. You can actually go to 100% without killing it, though I wouldn't make a habit of it.

12v 100AH Leoch Pure AGM Lead Carbon PLH+ C100 Deep Cycle Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries

12V 100Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • Pure Lead […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

 

[Pausim]

It is only charging LiFePO4 batteries below freezing that is a problem and the BMS should protect them. The actual power delivery is less affected by cold temperatures than lead acid ones.

 

[Eadie]

Happy to help your decision Baz & enjoy your trip.

 

[Eadie]

Do you know the max depth of discharge for these batteries? Leach site does not state it as far as I can see.

The figures given of 2000 cycles is based on a 50% discharge. But like any battery, the more you discharge it, the shorter it's life becomes. So, if you continually drain 70%, you'll reduce the life cycles to 1200. The same goes the other way. If you only discharge 20% continually, you'll get 4500 life cycles out of them.

 

[BasherBaz]

Yes I understand that but by the BMS stopping the charge at low temperatures they won’t get charged until the temperature rises whereas these AGM lead carbon ones will. Not much good having lithium if you’re staying in a very cold climate where it won’t get above freezing for days or weeks. You can run the engine as much as you want but if the BMS says no then you’re leisure batteries ain’t gonna charge.

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[funflair]

Yes I understand that but by the BMS stopping the charge at low temperatures they won’t get charged until the temperature rises whereas these AGM lead carbon ones will. Not much good having lithium if you’re staying in a very cold climate where it won’t get above freezing for days or weeks. You can run the engine as much as you want but if the BMS says no then you’re leisure batteries ain’t gonna charge.

But if you are staying in your van in a cold climate you are not going to be keeping it close to Zero to live in surely?

 

[Eadie]

Do you know the max depth of discharge for these batteries? Leach site does not state it as far as I can see.

I did accidentally fully discharge mine last year. I was getting to know my new to me, old van & trying to figure out some wiring quirks I'd found. By fitting a 3 pin plug to a stray cable & plugging it into my inverter, I found I could run my van on 240v from my leasure batteries.
I flicked my fridge to 240v & forgot to turn it off. Many, many hours later, my inverter started making alarm beeps. I checked my battery monitor & saw the volts had dropped into the 10's or 11's. I'd completely drained both batteries but in firing up my engine, they began to take a charge immediately, with no issues.
I've not noticed any long term affects from my schoolboy error. They charge up, hold charge & discharge, just the same as the day I bought them. I'd guess the life cycles will be shortened but only time will confirm if this is true

 

[BasherBaz]

But if you are staying in your van in a cold climate you are not going to be keeping it close to Zero to live in surely?

No, not always as other accomodation available on route but the van will still be subject to freezing temperatures though. I also don’t want to be running back to it during the day when it may go above freezing just to get the batteries charged when there is this alternative lead carbon option which saves me having the hassle. These lead carbons do what I need for £250 each compared to £1850 each for NDS Lions without this risk so a no brainer. The capacity they offer meets my requirements so I’m happy.

 

[BasherBaz]

I did accidentally fully discharge mine last year. I was getting to know my new to me, old van & trying to figure out some wiring quirks I'd found. By fitting a 3 pin plug to a stray cable & plugging it into my inverter, I found I could run my van on 240v from my leasure batteries.
I flicked my fridge to 240v & forgot to turn it off. Many, many hours later, my inverter started making alarm beeps. I checked my battery monitor & saw the volts had dropped into the 10's or 11's. I'd completely drained both batteries but in firing up my engine, they began to take a charge immediately, with no issues.
I've not noticed any long term affects from my schoolboy error. They charge up, hold charge & discharge, just the same as the day I bought them. I'd guess the life cycles will be shortened but only time will confirm if this is true

Hi Eadie

Yes I too have done this a couple of times to my lead acid wet cells when on overnight ferries mainly to Scandinavia when customs have insisted on personally turning off your gas supply so have had to leave the three way fridge on 12v to protect the contents.
But have got away with it both times. The only reason I am changing up to these AGMs if because the lead acids are now four years old and I want batteries with the ultimate temperature range and reliability for my extended trip. Maybe lithium’s would be ok but I don’t want the ‘maybe’
The fact you live in your van full time all year round so have probably cycled your batteries more times than a lot of motorhomers ever will is a big part in my decision.
Thanks again

 

[ChrisL]

On the subject of cold weather charging, the data sheet for the Leoch lead carbon AGM batteries gives a charging range of 0 centigrade to 40 centigrade. However the data sheet for the Expedition plus lead carbon gel batteries say a charging range of -20 centigrade to 50 centigrade, from other material i have read I was under the impression that lead carbon can be charged at low temperatures so I'm not sure why the Leoch batteries data sheet says what it does, it maybe needs clarifying somehow, perhaps an email to Leoch?

Edit: sorry the data sheet for the expedition plus battery is not for the lead carbon battery but for the VRLA gel battery I think this is an error by alpha batteries as it is the data sheet from the lead carbon battery page. I'll see if I can find the correct one.

Edit 2: Ok so I found the correct data sheet for the Expedition plus lead carbon battery and like the Leoch it has a charging range from 0 centigrade but to slightly a higher 50 centigrade. so there does not appear to be a cold weather charging advantage for lead carbon. I have a Leoch lead carbon fitted to my own day van and so far it's been great and charges really quickly, the cold weather charging rate wont affect myself but if this is an important factor then it needs clarifying to find out if you would be damaging the batteries charging them at minus 0 temperatures.

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